Jump to content

Assistant Scoutmaster as Advancement Chair?


Recommended Posts

31 minutes ago, yknot said:

Also, the online Tour Plan has been gone for awhile but for a long time that stipulated 1:10 adults to scouts on any outing.  

I don't remember that.  Here's the only legacy versions I could find.

                http://www.troop880.com/PDF Forms/LocalPermit.pdf

                https://www.jerseyshorescouts.org/files/2003/Tour-Plan-Form-pdf

The only reference to ratios or a 10 limit vehicle limits for transporting scouts.  That's a driving issue, not a camping issue.  Most of our weekend camps are within an hour drive.  It's usually easy to get drivers.  

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 119
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Concur.  That is why BSA doesn't do it.  They give you the minimums.  We use BSA directives to establish the minimums, and then rely on judgment, experience, activity or subject matter expert adv

The real question is, what is the minimum number of adults to charter a unit? Four, in five positions. 1 x COR (dual hatted as a MC) 1 x CC 1 x Additional MC 1 x Unit Leader (

Hi @Chadamus, Sorry to be a few days late here.  It's probably also worth noting the BSA publication, "Troop Leader Guidebook, Volume 1" describes a role of Assistant Scoutmaster for Advancement

Posted Images

2 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I don't remember that.  Here's the only legacy versions I could find.

                http://www.troop880.com/PDF Forms/LocalPermit.pdf

                https://www.jerseyshorescouts.org/files/2003/Tour-Plan-Form-pdf

The only reference to ratios or a 10 limit vehicle limits for transporting scouts.  That's a driving issue, not a camping issue.  Most of our weekend camps are within an hour drive.  It's usually easy to get drivers.  

 

No, that's not it. It's the one that you had to prompted thru to submit. You had to list enough adults to cover the number of scouts signed up. It was the last version I had to fill out before they did away with TAPs completely. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, yknot said:

No, that's not it. It's the one that you had to prompted thru to submit. You had to list enough adults to cover the number of scouts signed up. It was the last version I had to fill out before they did away with TAPs completely. 

If you didn't fill out the prompts correctly, you got a red alert that you were honor bound to address before heading out. Did you not have to fill those out? 

Edit: It's referenced here on this forum because I remember having discussions about them. 

Edited by yknot
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, yknot said:

Did you not have to fill those out? 

We filled out the paper one for every trip we went on ... I hope.  I only did the camping paperwork a limited amount of the time.   But I remember seeing it in with the stack of health forms.  Always a pain as 30% of the time we were camping at scout camps and they wanted the tour permit for scout camps too.  

I have faint recollections of an online version, but it would have been a very short time window.  Less than a year.  

My recollection was a council signed tour permit was explicit evidence (aka liability) of the council agreeing the leaders had a good plan and were qualified to do that activity.  Thus, the tour plan approval was eliminated.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, yknot said:

Okayyyy... but if the litmus test for YPT is two deep at all times no matter what then, being scouts, we have to "Be Prepared" to effect that, no?

Where are you getting that from? 2 deep is not required “at all times”. You are reading extra rules into it. You are confusing no “one on one” at all times. You can be on a camp out and 10 Scouts and one adult go one way and 10 Scouts and another adult go another. 
 

Prudent? Maybe not. But again, don’t create extra rules. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1:10 is in BSA Water safety guidelines.  That is the only 1:10 ratio I can think of that is required.  Could you be mixing up the guidelines?

Maybe there is a ratio somewhere that I am missing.  Now personally, I enjoy the adult company on campouts far away from the scouts.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1:10 is lifeguards to participants for Safe Swim.  Not for adults.  

Our Scouts were looking at Summer Camp selections one year....one had in their brochure a 1:10 adult ratio, and said that Scouts must stay in sight of adults at all times.  Needless to say, we didn"t go to that camp ;)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, yknot said:

Okayyyy... but if the litmus test for YPT is two deep at all times no matter what then, being scouts, we have to "Be Prepared" to effect that, no? Also, the online Tour Plan has been gone for awhile but for a long time that stipulated 1:10 adults to scouts on any outing.  

"BSA’s Tour and Activity Plan eliminated

....

How does this change affect the safety of BSA outings?

It doesn’t. The Scouting program, as contained in our handbooks and literature, integrates many safety features. But no policy or form will replace the review and vigilance of trusted adults and leaders at the point of program execution."

 

SOURCE: BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/03/31/bsas-tour-and-activity-plan-eliminated/

 

"TOUR AND ACTIVITY PLAN

A national Learning for Life and Exploring Tour and Activity Plan is required for all posts/clubs/ groups traveling to areas 500 miles or more one way from home area or crossing national boundaries into the territory of other nations. This application should be submitted, typed or printed, to the local Learning for Life office for approval at least one month before your outing.

...

Leadership and Youth Protection Training: (Learning for Life policy requires at least two adult leaders on all overnight trips and tours. Coed units must have both male and female leaders.) The adult leader in charge of this unit must be at least 21 years old and have completed Learning for Life or Exploring Youth Protection Training. ...

 

At least one associate adult leader is required (minimum age 21)."

SOURCE: Boy Scouts  of America, "Tour  and  Activity Plan" [for Learning for Life], 1-4-2021.

 

BUT NOTE:
"Adult Supervision Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. There must be a registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over in every unit serving females. A registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over must be present for any activity involving female youth. Notwithstanding the minimum leader requirements, age-and program appropriate supervision must always be provided."

 

SOURCE: Boy Scouts of America, Guide to Safe Scouting (2019) at p. 1 [emphasis added]; spelling error corrected].

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Where are you getting that from? 2 deep is not required “at all times”. You are reading extra rules into it. You are confusing no “one on one” at all times. You can be on a camp out and 10 Scouts and one adult go one way and 10 Scouts and another adult go another. 
 

Prudent? Maybe not. But again, don’t create extra rules. 

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2018/01/19/whats-the-difference-between-two-deep-leadership-and-no-one-on-one-contact/

 

Here, among other places. This is a little out of date because the requirements have become even more stringent in the past couple years. 

Edit: Also, I work with COs from two different denominations and they also demand a ratio of at least 1:10.

Edited by yknot
Link to post
Share on other sites

For all "Scout activites" except MBC meeting with candidates, two adults "presnet" at all times,  more recently two 21-or-older registered adults "present" at all times, again excpet for the MB counseling situations..  The "no one-on-one" is in addition to "two-deep.:.  Even if  "twodeep" cannot be one-on-one,  That leaves us with what "present" means, and that has been discussed here before. 

 

One of the registered adults can be an Assistant Scoutmaster, but he only counts for one even if also serving as TC Advancement Chair.  😄

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

1:10 is lifeguards to participants for Safe Swim.  Not for adults.  

Our Scouts were looking at Summer Camp selections one year....one had in their brochure a 1:10 adult ratio, and said that Scouts must stay in sight of adults at all times.  Needless to say, we didn"t go to that camp ;)

 

I get that in one sense but on the other hand given the bankruptcy situation we are in and all our current challenges, PR and otherwise,  that is kind of an irresponsible viewpoint. If your unit parents were able to read this forum, is that what you would want them to read  how you selected your summer camp location? That you chose it specifically because the camp did not require adequate adult supervision? Sometimes I think scouters have a death wish... 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

For all "Scout activites" except MBC meeting with candidates, two adults "presnet" at all times,  more recently two 21-or-older registered adults "present" at all times, again excpet for the MB counseling situations..  The "no one-on-one" is in addition to "two-deep.:.  Even if  "twodeep" cannot be one-on-one,  That leaves us with what "present" means, and that has been discussed here before. 

 

One of the registered adults can be an Assistant Scoutmaster, but he only counts for one even if also serving as TC Advancement Chair.  😄

I'm sorry Tahawk but I am not at all clear on what you are trying to say. I think two adults present and accounted for... is pretty clear? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/1/2021 at 9:19 PM, Chadamus said:

Page 15 of the Registration guidebook clearly states:

"In addition to registered unit positions, the following functional duties or roles can also be assigned to registered adult leaders."

This quote reads that a functional role (Advancement Chair) can also be held by a registered leader (SM, CC, etc.). There's no misreading that.

 

Please don't misunderstand that I'm not trying to convince, but instead seeking clarification. Surely based on the the above one can see how there is clearly room for interpretation.

Hi @Chadamus,

Sorry to be a few days late here.  It's probably also worth noting the BSA publication, "Troop Leader Guidebook, Volume 1" describes a role of Assistant Scoutmaster for Advancement

Quote

Assistant Scoutmaster for Advancement (from page 83-84)

  • Promote advancement and other awards
  • Identify merit badge counselors and coach instructors
  • Work with the patrol leaders' council to ensure that planned activities give Scouts the opportunity to advance
  • Coordinates scheduling of Scoutmaster conferences and boards of review
  • Work with the scribe to ensure that advancement records are up to date
  • Support Scouts who are planning courts of honor
  • Oversee Life-to-Eagle counseling efforts

...

In the same manual, it also says:

Quote

The Troop Committee (from page 14)

A typical committee may include but is not limited to these positions:

...

  • Advancement coordinator - oversees advancement records and boards of review

My interpretation of the BSA's materials is that a Troop can assign most of the traditional duties of an advancement chair/coordinator to an ASM.  There still should be someone overseeing this on the Troop committee, but the week to week work can indeed be done by an ASM.

Hope this helps.

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, mashmaster said:

Now personally, I enjoy the adult company on campouts far away from the scouts.

I absolutely enjoy the company too.  It's the "far away" that I rarely see.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Hi @Chadamus,

Sorry to be a few days late here.  It's probably also worth noting the BSA publication, "Troop Leader Guidebook, Volume 1" describes a role of Assistant Scoutmaster for Advancement

In the same manual, it also says:

My interpretation of the BSA's materials is that a Troop can assign most of the traditional duties of an advancement chair/coordinator to an ASM.  There still should be someone overseeing this on the Troop committee, but the week to week work can indeed be done by an ASM.

Hope this helps.

Thank you.   

The rare useful comment by someone who stays on topic.  :)

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...