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Assistant Scoutmaster as Advancement Chair?


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Happy New Year!

A question for the experts here since I cannot find official BSA documentation:

Can an Assistant Scoutmaster serve as a Unit's Advancement Chair? Why or why not?

In my Unit the role of Advancement Chair has always been filled by a Committee Member. What does your Unit do?

Thanks for any insight, Scouters!

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Concur.  That is why BSA doesn't do it.  They give you the minimums.  We use BSA directives to establish the minimums, and then rely on judgment, experience, activity or subject matter expert adv

The real question is, what is the minimum number of adults to charter a unit? Four, in five positions. 1 x COR (dual hatted as a MC) 1 x CC 1 x Additional MC 1 x Unit Leader (

Hi @Chadamus, Sorry to be a few days late here.  It's probably also worth noting the BSA publication, "Troop Leader Guidebook, Volume 1" describes a role of Assistant Scoutmaster for Advancement

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23 minutes ago, Chadamus said:

Happy New Year!

A question for the experts here since I cannot find official BSA documentation:

Can an Assistant Scoutmaster serve as a Unit's Advancement Chair? Why or why not?

In my Unit the role of Advancement Chair has always been filled by a Committee Member. What does your Unit do?

Thanks for any insight, Scouters!

No.

Advancement Chair is a committee position (Position Code 112 Unit Advancement Chair). No one can hold two positions in any unit EXCEPT the Chartered Organization Rep who can be both COR and on committee.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2016/04/29/can-volunteer-serve-multiple-volunteer-roles/

EDIT: Here's the official rule
Registration Guidebook of the Boy Scouts of America

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Registration-Guidebook.pdf

Quote

There are no restrictions on the number of positions one person may hold as long as the individual serves in only one position per unit with the exception of the chartered organization representative (CR), who is the only individual that can be registered in more than one position within the same unit. The CR may also serve in a multiple capacity as the committee chair (CC) or as a member of the committee (MC, NM, or PT) within that unit.

 

Edited by CynicalScouter
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Just now, CynicalScouter said:

No.

Advancement Chair is a committee position. No one can hold two positions in any unit EXCEPT the Chartered Organization Rep who can be both COR and on committee.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2016/04/29/can-volunteer-serve-multiple-volunteer-roles/

 

Thanks, CynicalScouter. I read that article, but it doesn't convince me. It would be just as easy to argue that a Committee Member cannot be the Advancement Chair as that's two different positions. I completely understand that an Assistant Scoutmaster cannot be a Committee Member.

Could a Committee Member be a Unit's Treasurer? Absolutely. Could the Unit's Treasurer also be an ASM? If the Unit has limited registered leaders, why not? So why not Advancement Chair?

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3 minutes ago, Chadamus said:

Thanks, CynicalScouter. I read that article, but it doesn't convince me. It would be just as easy to argue that a Committee Member cannot be the Advancement Chair as that's two different positions. I completely understand that an Assistant Scoutmaster cannot be a Committee Member.

Could a Committee Member be a Unit's Treasurer? Absolutely. Could the Unit's Treasurer also be an ASM? If the Unit has limited registered leaders, why not? So why not Advancement Chair?

Read my edit.

EDIT: Here's the official rule
Registration Guidebook of the Boy Scouts of America

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Registration-Guidebook.pdf

Quote

There are no restrictions on the number of positions one person may hold as long as the individual serves in only one position per unit with the exception of the chartered organization representative (CR), who is the only individual that can be registered in more than one position within the same unit. The CR may also serve in a multiple capacity as the committee chair (CC) or as a member of the committee (MC, NM, or PT) within that unit.

So, a committee member may be assigned specifically to be Advancement Chair, but an ASM cannot be. Again, ASMs cannot do Committee roles, and vice versa.

Remember: the SM/ASM corp and the committee are suppose to be distinct to avoid issues. The committee provides, to an extent, oversight of the SM/ASMs. It is why, for example, ASMs may NOT sit on Boards of Review.

If you have an ASM who pencil whips through a scout (as ASM) and then approves it committee side, you are simply asking for trouble.

As treasurer? I can cite **four separate provisions** of BSA policies and rules that says the treasurer in particular must not be ANYTHING else.

 

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8 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

No.

Advancement Chair is a committee position (Position Code 112 Unit Advancement Chair). No one can hold two positions in any unit EXCEPT the Chartered Organization Rep who can be both COR and on committee.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2016/04/29/can-volunteer-serve-multiple-volunteer-roles/

EDIT: Here's the official rule
Registration Guidebook of the Boy Scouts of America

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Registration-Guidebook.pdf

 

This is the reason this forum is so useful, good solid experience and advice on how the Boy Scout program is run.   

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I appreciate the link CynicalScouter.

I suspect the term "position" is what I'm hung up on.

Again, if a Committee Member is also the Treasurer, is that not two "positions?"

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8 minutes ago, Chadamus said:

I appreciate the link CynicalScouter.

I suspect the term "position" is what I'm hung up on.

Again, if a Committee Member is also the Treasurer, is that not two "positions?"

There is

Unit Positions and Unit Functional Positions.

You may only hold one UNIT position (other than the COR).

That UNIT position may hold multiple FUNCTIONAL positions (although treasurer has special restrictions; they don't want the guy/gal with the money also doing other things).

So, I am a committee member (UNIT position MC). I am FUNCTIONALLY responsible for training (128) and Popcorn  (113), for example. That is fine.

Your Troop may not even be that fancy; everyone is committee member (MC) or committee chair (CC) and they just assign the roles without getting into the fancy Functional Position numbers.

Moreover, the Troop Committee Guidebook specifically states Advancement Chair (Coordinator) is a committee position. See page 16.

http://www.magnificentsevens.org/docs/Resources/TroopCommitteeGuidebook/TroopCommitteeGuidebook.pdf

 

Edited by CynicalScouter
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Unless I'm grossly misinterpreting page 15 of the Registration Guidebook of the Boy Scouts of America, it appears that the following functional roles can be assigned to registered leaders, aka ASMs, MC, etc.

 

Screenshot 2021-01-01 205656.png

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10 minutes ago, Chadamus said:

Unless I'm grossly misinterpreting page 15 of the Registration Guidebook of the Boy Scouts of America, it appears that the following functional roles can be assigned to registered leaders, aka ASMs, MC, etc.

Again, Troop Committee Guidebook lays this out. Advancement cannot be SM/ASM. It is a conflict of interest. It is assigned to the COMMITTEE. Advancement is a COMMITTEE function. Not SM/ASM.

http://www.magnificentsevens.org/docs/Resources/TroopCommitteeGuidebook/TroopCommitteeGuidebook.pdf

See page 16 and especially page 30 which makes it clear as crystal

Quote

The committee member responsible for advancement must become familiar with the video presentation Boy Scout Advancement; the booklet National Advancement Policies and Procedures Committee Guide; and the booklet Boy Scout Requirements. These three resources are indispensable tools to use in your troop's advancement program. The entire troop committee should review the Boy Scout Advancement video.

TroopCommitteeGuidebook[1]-page-018[1].jpg

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I think this is one of these things that will have to change. Volunteer ranks are shrinking. BSA has so many volunteer roles that they are impossible to staff in a smaller unit. What happens is that the volunteers that are available wind up taking on the functions of these roles even if they do not take them on paper. For example, I was once the Pack Committee Chair as well as the functioning CM although we had another name down on paper. 

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5 minutes ago, Chadamus said:

I appreciate that link, CynicalScouter. Thank you.

Would you say that the Troop Committee Guidebook supersedes the Registration Guidebook?

No, you are misreading the Registration Guidebook.

SMs have one functional assignment: SM/ASM. That's it.

Committee has multiple. So the CC can hold multiple functions.

Again, at the risk of repeating myself.

Troop Committee Guidebook

Page 30

Quote

The committee member responsible for advancement must become familiar with the video presentation Boy Scout Advancement; the booklet National Advancement Policies and Procedures Committee Guide; and the booklet Boy Scout Requirements. These three resources are indispensable tools to use in your troop's advancement program. The entire troop committee should review the Boy Scout Advancement video.

 

 

 

TroopCommitteeGuidebook[1]-page-032[1].jpg

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4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

No, you are misreading the Registration Guidebook.

If the Commitee is to fulfill its quality control function, Advancment Chair must be a Committee function, not a Commissioned Scouter function.

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6 minutes ago, yknot said:

I think this is one of these things that will have to change. Volunteer ranks are shrinking. BSA has so many volunteer roles that they are impossible to staff in a smaller unit. What happens is that the volunteers that are available wind up taking on the functions of these roles even if they do not take them on paper. For example, I was once the Pack Committee Chair as well as the functioning CM although we had another name down on paper. 

Here's the problem with that: if the SM can start doing committee assignments (budget, advancement, etc.) you effectively have one person running everything. The committee is not suppose to be adversarial to the SM/ASM, but there has to be some group who is set apart. Again, I give the example of prohibiting ASMs from sitting on Boards of Review. 

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Page 15 of the Registration guidebook clearly states:

"In addition to registered unit positions, the following functional duties or roles can also be assigned to registered adult leaders."

This quote reads that a functional role (Advancement Chair) can also be held by a registered leader (SM, CC, etc.). There's no misreading that.

 

Please don't misunderstand that I'm not trying to convince, but instead seeking clarification. Surely based on the the above one can see how there is clearly room for interpretation.

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