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4 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

We've told out troop parents this weekend to expect BSA to be shut down this summer. Lot of disappointment and sadness, but that's where we are at.

I'm really curious how you arrive at that conclusion.  Walk me through, step by step, how you think BSA shuts down.

There are tremendous issues of both fact and law at play here.  BSA has literally billions in assets, not a single dollar of which has been awarded to any creditors or claimants.  I can't even conjure up a series of events that results in BSA, let alone your local council or troop, shutting down this summer.

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What is legally right is not always morally right.

I would encourage everyone to not ask @ThenNow to rehash particular circumstances. They can be found by patiently browsing his posts. From what I read, they were far from legal. His claim would have b

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Okay everyone, it's time to chill out. Things are getting a bit intense. It's late. Get a good night's sleep. This crisis will still be here in the morning.

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With few exceptions a non profit cannot be forced into liquidation.  These can be long drawn out court battles, years even,  if everyone wans to fight rather than settle.  And the issues aren't at all clear how they'll come out, so everyone would be rolling the dice with no surety of the outcome.  So settle, IMHO is going to be what happens.

BSA is going to have to sell some big assets --- more than they want to, LCs, even those like mine that have no SOL change, are going to have to pay --- more than they want.  Claimants are going to get paid --- less than they want.  But the least likely outcome is BSA shutting down.

 

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The scout law
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7 hours ago, MattR said:

Welcome to the forum, @SilverPalm.

I made my scouts dance for lost items. Honestly, I got tired of picking up their stuff all the time. But, whenever a shy scout had to dance it was known among all of the older scouts to dance along with him. It worked. Soon the shy scouts realized it was nothing to be afraid of. A couple of times I had to dance as well. The scouts loved that. It all depends on the attitude, not the task at hand.

I had to be very careful not to misplace anything on a campout or a scout would gleefully pounce on it and scurry back to his patrol where he would be greeted with great rejoicing.  Then usually at dinner I would be approached by the PL saying " Mr. Old scout, I believe we have something of yours that requires a song.". Naturally the whole troop having been clandestinely informed this was coming would be dropping whatever they were doing to watch me sing I'm a Little Teapot.  

There was of course one adult who told me that I shouldn't do such things or the boys wouldn't respect me.  He seemed confused when I told him that not playing by the same rules as the scouts would loose their respect a great deal faster.  

Sorry to go off topic for a moment, but this thread is  the most depressing one I've ever read on this forum.  And the longest

Edited by Oldscout448
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28 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Sorry to go off topic for a moment

Let me just add that it is not against the rules to require singing as a normal part of the program.  It is only against the rules if it is used as a punishment or humiliation (hazing).  Asking the scouts to sing hymns at church services, for example, is not hazing.

 

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6 hours ago, SilverPalm said:

You know, that's a good point.  I think I will send National a letter, regardless of whether it makes a difference.  

Any of us who are Eagle Scouts were charged to dedicate our skills and abilities to the common good.  Maybe this is a good place to start.   

I went to sleep thinking about this last night and don't sleep much as it is. Several things have been reinforced in me since starting to follow this forum and then becoming active. Here are a few:

1) Boy Scouts National has a bunch of things that create the outline and infrastructure that is Scouting as we know it. Rankings, books, trademarks, Congressional Charter, Eagle "brand," all the IP, and, etc.;

2) National has four cherry properties with top flight facilities and programs each amazing, compelling and intrinsically and financially valuable. They are not priceless, however;

3) National is not "Scouting." You guys and the kids are Scouting. Your kids don't know the people at National. They are not the face and heartbeat of Scouting to them. You are. National has stuff and is the conceptual leader. You have experience, wisdom, knowledge, passion and, more than anything, the gift of yourselves in the form of quality time spent. I don't know what percentage of kids have the opportunity to experience HA, but for most of us, our Summer Camp was the prize destination. I spent 7 summers at "camp," which eventually extended into running Camp Crafts at Cup Days several years. That camp was priceless to many of us. It has since been sold.

4) IMHO, the ideas you have on this case, especially related to BSA stepping up to save Scouting on the ground and being earnest and contrite about these negotiations with thousands of abuse survivors, are worth articulating beyond this forum. You've said the camps matter more than HA. Tell them. You said you believe YPT can and must be better, and have great ideas how it can be done. Tell them. You have ideas about not playing footsie with properties and assets, and getting everyone's butt to the table to make this happen. Tell them. You have stories of kids, even your own children, who will be crushed if Scouting either disappears or is hobbled beyond recognition. Tell them.

Now is the moment, if ever.

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7 hours ago, swilliams said:

I do wonder if a petition would do any good, and I would happily sign my name to a statement saying I could care less about keeping Summit. 

Online petitions are super easy to create, distribute, gather signatures and forward. I think the diversity of voices here, if focused and expressed, could be impactful. 

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8 hours ago, David CO said:

How important are non-monetary requirements in this bankruptcy?

Not sure how to rank or compare, but very. I’d say inextricably linked with the monetary component, given the Chapter 11 aim to see Scouting continue. It’s worth noting, I think, that the TCC/survivors  wouldn’t be “demanding” YPT improvements on a BSA they intend to “force” into liquidation. Just sayin. There are lines between which one must read. :) 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, swilliams said:

I mentioned upthread a ways that our troop went once - it would have been around 2005 or 2006 - and we never went back again.

The BSA acquired the land for the Summit in 2009/2010 timeframe, the opening event was the 2013 National Jamboree.  The first year of summer programs for units was 2014.  You might be thinking about a different place if your troop went in 2005/2006.

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8 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

With few exceptions a non profit cannot be forced into liquidation.  These can be long drawn out court battles, years even,  if everyone wans to fight rather than settle.

This is what I see happening; however, National has been clear. If this takes until fall they will go into liquidation.  If they are being honest (I don’t think they are) and I expect 0% chance the bankruptcy is done by fall, Eagle Scout rank will no longer be owned by BSA.  It will be sold along with all National assets. Perhaps during liquidation the GSUSA will be given Eagle Scout trademark as part of the settlement.  Who knows.

I expect the most likely outcome is a 3 - 4 year settlement battle.  Cases may spin off about HA camps, LC individual assets/camps.  CO property and assets.  National will find some sort of income stream to live in bankruptcy for half a decade.  Perhaps by charging councils very large fees so they help fund the legal battle.  Councils could then end up selling camps just to fund the bankruptcy lawyers.

We will survive but the news and financial aspects of scouting will be about bankruptcy.  As long as my unit has a local summer camp to go to and parents who volunteer we will be ok.

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3 hours ago, ThenNow said:

...

2) National has four cherry properties with top flight facilities and programs each amazing, compelling and intrinsically and financially valuable. They are not priceless, however;

...

At least three of the four properties are known to provide life changing experiences [Philmont, Northern Tier, and Sea Base] while the fourth has not been in existence long enough establish that the experience is life changing.  Certainly, the recent World Scout Jamboree was life changing for the attendees.

Nothing is truly priceless.  If the Louvre decided to sell the Mona Lisa, it would be purchased at some price.  Being called priceless means that it would require a very dire situation for such a thing to even be considered.

The high adventure bases (HAB) of the BSA are priceless to the BSA.  There is research from a third party with independence that shows that youth remain in Scouting to have the possibility of going to a HAB.  The experiences of three and likely all are life changing (I have seen it occur on three Philmont treks and two Sea Base adventures).  Many (most?) in Scouting see these as priceless.  

The threat that the TCC unleashed on the local council camps is even more important in Scouting.  Summer camp is extremely important in Scouting where lives are changed every summer.  The local BSA camps are used for far more than just summer camp.  They are the site for district camporees, Cub day camps, OA events, and council rendezvous {and various other names for a council wide for all kinds of units [packs, troops, crews, boats, and labs]}.  The lose of council camps would be a devastating blow to Scouts and Scouting.  Once again making innocent children pay for something with which they did not have any relationship.

There is no doubt in my mind that the TCC wants the destruction of Scouting.  They want all assets which is the local camps as well as the HAB of national.  This will devastate Scouting at all levels.

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9 hours ago, MattR said:

Okay everyone, it's time to chill out. Things are getting a bit intense. It's late. Get a good night's sleep. This crisis will still be here in the morning.

And so will scouting, even after the crisis.

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5 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

There is no doubt in my mind that the TCC wants the destruction of Scouting.

How did you arrive at that certainty? Personally, my mind reading has proven iffy of late.

That little speech wasn't meant to diminish the value (which I recognized), but to encourage you guys to fight for whatever it is you think is important specifically by speaking up. I was also jumping off from the comments of many that "their camps" are most precious and critical. That's all. 

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9 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

With few exceptions a non profit cannot be forced into liquidation.  These can be long drawn out court battles, years even,  if everyone wans to fight rather than settle.  And the issues aren't at all clear how they'll come out, so everyone would be rolling the dice with no surety of the outcome.  So settle, IMHO is going to be what happens.

BSA is going to have to sell some big assets --- more than they want to, LCs, even those like mine that have no SOL change, are going to have to pay --- more than they want.  Claimants are going to get paid --- less than they want.  But the least likely outcome is BSA shutting down.

 

Up to a point, I agree.  However, the issue that I see is the reaction of the chartered organizations (COs) and the effect on local councils (LCs) giving and membership.

So with the now planned lawsuits to be filed against the COs, many church organizations will advise or require the local churches to get rid of any units.  So suddenly most units will not have a place to meet.  That further harms membership that has seen a massive decline during covid and Chapter 11.  The registration fees all go to support the National Council so the local councils need Friends of Scouting campaigns.  Up to now, councils could accurately say that you gift would go to supporting local Scouting.  With the lawsuits, giving will nearly cease as it did for the National Council when it filed for Chapter 11.  Most councils make some money from summer camp that is being demanded by the TCC.  So the LCs will see a rapid decline in membership and giving.  

Some LCs are already in financial jeopardy and many others will be so quickly.  When do they collapse?  Summer, fall, or next winter?  Depends on the resources.

So I fear that by not clearly understanding the structure and finances of Scouting, the TCC has signed a death warrant.  

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