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Yes I am a ASM, (19yo), other adults have tried. I will take it to the committee but the grandpa is on the committee. But, that is only one of the boys the other boys have less bad parents but the parents never attend and think their child is an angel. The other scouts parents are trying  to help us with handling the behavior but the parents aren't always with us so the SM and I want to have some tools to give the PLC, to help the boys deal with the problem on their own.

 

Addition- @SSScout I like the positive peer pressure think will have them try but maybe an ice cream on the may home or PLC & adults, make your patrol peach cobbler on the next trip because $64 is way to much to spend on bribery

Edited by chief027
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There is a PLC training that the SM can provide.  It is a mini NAYLE course, the templates are available on line, (it's called ILST)    each SM really should do this at the beginning of the Scout year.  see  https://www.scouting.org/training/youth/   

AND....  your  Council should be offering the NAYLE course once or twice a year.   https://www.scouting.org/programs/boy-scouts/resources/nayle/

 

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@SSScout will do the mini-NAYLE  but our council only offers NYLT once a year no NAYLE

 

The other scouts with supportive parents what should we do with them in the area we are in calling the parents isn't always an option, and I don't want to get rid of the problem and loses boys we want to fix the problem.

 

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Waaaay back in my Scout day,   I remember that our Patrol would just do what needed to be done. If the "spoiled kid" (and he was), didn't do his share, , well,  he still ate, but he took home dirty dishes, and he sat around a lot watching all the others doing stuff.  

My advice,  if the "spoiled kid" comes camping, he carries his own gear, camps in his own tent (which he pitches),  eats with the Patrol (if he paid for his share of grub),  and if he refuses to carry firewood or water or help clean, well, make sure that his stuff is his stuff. He can sit and watch, but he doesn't play with us or takes his share of the prize the Patrol wins for having the "Neatest Campsite" or tying the knots the quickest or running the relay race. 

The other Scouts set the standard, but do not chastise the "spoiled kid" for not being cooperative.  It is HIS choice to not be included.  The rest of the Patrol should NOT be the ones to NOT include him.  

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This scout won't listen to scout leadership or adults. In other words, he just doesn't understand teamwork. I don't know his age but my guess is he's 11 or 12?

One option is, on the permission slip, have a copy of the scout oath and law. Explicitly state that if a scout does not follow this then they will be sent home. Since grandpa is there it won't be a problem. The important part is that you follow through.

Another option: I've never done this before but you're welcome to try. Before the next campout tell everyone in the patrol that without teamwork they may as well be in cub scouts. Ask them who wants to be in cub scouts. Hopefully none of them say they do. Tell them that there are problems with this patrol not acting as a team. Stop the scouts if they point fingers or mention the problem scout's name. Explain to them that you'll be watching along with the SM or SPL or ASM or just someone outside of the patrol. Then tell them if there are any scouts that aren't team members carrying their share of the work then they will be put in a troop den. They will camp with the adults. For this campout the adults are going to eat something special. Breakfast is hard boiled eggs and a slice of cheese. Lunch is split pea soup and white bread. Dinner is canned spam and white rice. Hopefully you'll never get to dinner. Oh, and the cub scouts will be washing all the dishes. The cub scouts will also be working on advancement. That's the bad cop stuff. Find a good cop that tries to encourage encourage this scout. Show him how to have fun while washing dishes. Talk to him about what happens when nobody wants to do their part. Tell him all the adults really want to see him succeed and move back to his patrol. Hopefully, when he does, congratulations from all the adults is in order.

As far as grandpa is concerned, that's something the SM has to deal with. Grandpa needs to learn about how scouts is done in your troop. I hate to say this but when the parents aren't in the picture then maybe grandpa is part of the problem? Sounds like a guy with a heart of gold that has trouble setting boundaries. Just a hunch, though, I don't know the whole story. Either way, someone has to talk to him and you're not that someone.

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My wife's grandmother gave me a fridge magnet that said "No man was ever shot while doing the dishes." :P

Any of the above are worth trying.

So is a more firm approach. A scout is helpful. A boy who is not helpful, therefore, is not a scout and will not be welcome on campsites. So, if he is to prepare for the  next campout, he is to wash his family's dishes and tidy the kitchen at least once a week. Make it clear to him that you will check in with his mom, and as long as he is practicing at home, he can come to the next campout to show off his skills there.

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@MattR I like your ideas , and the SM and I will probably start including the scout law on our permission slips, we recently developed a new 4 step system for campouts (1-Warning, 2- loss of privilege/ extra duty (depends in punishment, 3-Call home and 4-go home) The PLC came up with the idea at our last meeting, and plans on enforcing it. We will probably have to tell Grandpa he needs stay out off the way. I will suggest to the SPL that Adults leaders and Grandpa stay on the complete other side of the campground as grandsons patrol ( we have 3 patrols) and SPL, ASPL, and JASM camp separate from the patrols

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On 12/19/2018 at 4:48 PM, chief027 said:

@fred8033 We are also having issues finding enough adult leaders so we really don't have any to spare.

I'd challenge this statement.   The SM works with the scouts.  The scouts camp, cook and do activities mostly on their own.  Your other adult leader could help run interference.

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i'm going to disagree slightly with some of the posters.  This sounds like a situation isn't a situation where the normal incentives/disincentives will work.  The scout can survive without food if he's stubborn enough, or he knows adult will feed him, or he'll just leave dishes dirty whether it hurts his patrol or not.

This is where adult association comes in, and it has to start before the campout.  However the patrol makes the duty roster, this scout;s name appears in a place for doing dishes.  Assuming like most troops this is probably the meeting before campout, then at that meeting,  once the roster is set,the SM pulls the scout aside and shows him the roster and talks to him about what this means, and gets the scout to lay out and understand what the expectations are going to be on the campout. 

Then, at the campout, when the time comes, the SM goes over to the scout, reminds him of their discussion and proceeds to coach the scout through meeting the necessary expectations.  You can't wait and see if this time it will be different, it won't be.  This is about breaking one habit in the scout and beginning a new one.  Human brains reward doing the same thing as they did before, even if it ended up badly before, this is a matter of breaking one cycle and starting a new one.  This isn't a one time fix, it will take a few tries, and may not end perfectly, but this is why we get paid the big bucks.  This is going to take an investment of time, disproportionate time, but if you're not willing to do it then you might as well scream at the kid and threaten to not let him go on trips --- or just put up with him --- because there's no fix that doesn't take a lot of extra effort.

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 I talked with a few people in our troop and we had an idea. We will are winter camping next month at our council camp. The two super bad scouts are in the same patrol so and it looks like only one other scout in their patrols attending, we will separate the patrols about 500 ft from the adult camp in the middle. It is still a safe distance but it will be difficult for them to survive. Additionally instead of SPL and ASPL eating with the patrols all the Senior Scouts- Life and Up wiill be camping separately about 1/4th of a mile away. With only 3 scouts in one patrol the boys that don't work will be forced to help. Grandpa will be to far away to attend to the boys every need and we will distract him by having him teach the other patrol a skill or something of that sort. What do you guys think?

Edited by chief027
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4 hours ago, chief027 said:

With only 3 scouts in one patrol the boys that don't work will be forced to help.

And what about the poor third Scout?   Who chooses the menu? Who buys?  Who Cooks?  Who carries fuel/water/cleans the latrine?  I predict the same problem,  Maybe even some bullying issues.    "It Depends." 

Edited by SSScout

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On 12/20/2018 at 11:55 PM, T2Eagle said:

i'm going to disagree slightly with some of the posters.  This sounds like a situation isn't a situation where the normal incentives/disincentives will work.  The scout can survive without food if he's stubborn enough, or he knows adult will feed him, or he'll just leave dishes dirty whether it hurts his patrol or not.

This is where adult association comes in, and it has to start before the campout.  However the patrol makes the duty roster, this scout;s name appears in a place for doing dishes.  Assuming like most troops this is probably the meeting before campout, then at that meeting,  once the roster is set,the SM pulls the scout aside and shows him the roster and talks to him about what this means, and gets the scout to lay out and understand what the expectations are going to be on the campout. 

Then, at the campout, when the time comes, the SM goes over to the scout, reminds him of their discussion and proceeds to coach the scout through meeting the necessary expectations.  You can't wait and see if this time it will be different, it won't be.  This is about breaking one habit in the scout and beginning a new one.  Human brains reward doing the same thing as they did before, even if it ended up badly before, this is a matter of breaking one cycle and starting a new one.  This isn't a one time fix, it will take a few tries, and may not end perfectly, but this is why we get paid the big bucks.  This is going to take an investment of time, disproportionate time, but if you're not willing to do it then you might as well scream at the kid and threaten to not let him go on trips --- or just put up with him --- because there's no fix that doesn't take a lot of extra effort.

Your suggestion is much better than mine.  Well thought out.  

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Sounds good, @chief027. The traditional physical distance is 300', assuming you have open field and can see everyone.

You still need to talk to your unruly scout and let him know that your expecting him to do better (I.e., be more helpful) at every campout, just like he promised he would when he said the scout oath. Let him know that you believe in him and think he can do it.

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13 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

just a thought,  some people have an aversion to touching nasty, icky, gross stuff.   Do you guys use gloves when you wash the dishes?

Gloves give me an icky feeling, so no. Even in winter, I keep my gloves in my pocket until my fingers are too cold to work without them.

Our SM, on the other hand, is all about those gloves, so he makes sure patrols have a set of cleaning gloves.

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