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Hey all,

My troop was been struggling with the same problem for about a year now and despite everything we try we can't get it done. Here's what happens PL reminds his patrol member that according to the duty roster it's patrol members turn to do dishes. Patrol Member either refuses or tries argue how me did it last campout (they should have to it at every campout). Patrol Leader tells SPL, and the SPL asks him to do it the patrol member usually refuses, and the SPL, PL, and other patrol members have to pick up the slack. If they tell the adult leader the SM tries to solve the problem but the kids usually don't respond. We speculate there are multiple reasons why this occur, one scout is a spoiled brat, whose grandfather always attends the campout, or the kid is a spoiled frat who does nothing and home so refuses do anything on the campout. 

   The problem is really effecting our troop because parents are upset that their "special snowflake" has to dishes so often, and are moving their scouts to the troop that is the pet of DE (another conversation in and of itself, or scouts are quoting because there tired of picking up the slack. Our older scouts have tried to work through the problem posting duty roster, lead by example, let 'natural consequence occur' (awful idea by our old ASM), etc. But it seems nothing will work. What can we do?

Thank You,

chief027

 

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Chief - one way we solved this was by having the PL write the duty roster a week before the campout, SM or SPL signs off on it then PL runs the duty roster back through his patrol and asks for objections, Everyone inthe patrol must agree the roster is fair before they go on the trip. Once you are on the trip there is no more debate or argument - Snowflake had thier chance to dispute before they left.

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I should also add that I don't normally sit in on Patrol Meetings but when we an issues with a scout not being obedient I will let the Patrol know that I have full confidence in their PL and I expect them to follow his orders. Then I sit right behind the PL when he asks for objections to the duty roster, if Snowflake does not object I'll call him out - "you sure you are ok with this Snowflake?". Works most of the time.

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We solved it with patrol inspections. If the patrol had dirty dishes, they were hit hard. The prize, I don't remember what it was, has to be worth effort.

However, this may be indicative of a bigger challenge for you; your patrols are not bonding into a team. I'm sure this is a problem in other areas as well, it just hasn't risen to the level of adults yet. There a lots of reasons for patrols not bonding, but basically the activities your troop is doing isn't demanding a team effort. I'm guessing your troop activities aren't really requiring the patrols to function as patrols. Building a team starts out as a slow process, but once the scouts feel their contribution makes a difference to the performance of the TEAM, they start to kick in. 

Also, you leaders aren't being respected as leaders. They just don't have enough know-how (leadership skills) to move the patrol team forward. A big big part of respecting a leader is the leader respecting his position as a servant, not the top man who gives directions. Servant leaders have to attend the needs of the team. 

Team building requires goals for the team to work toward. Team building requires a leader who serves the team members so that they can function at their best. In my example, our goal was to force the patrols to work as a team to get their chores done before morning assembly. We used time as the force to make them figure out how to get the task accomplished before assembly. The troop may even need some training like showing how scouts who aren't assigned to KP are cleaning up tents and the campsite. There is always something to do. And the better the patrols get at inspection, the more difficult inspections should get. We also did this with breaking camp. We found that the scouts like to stop a store on the way home for candybars or ice cream. We force the schedule to allow only one hour to break camp. Six months later they were breaking camp in almost have the time. 

Don't stop at inspections, figure out how to make all your activities force the patrol to work together just to accomplish the task. Developing as a team develops better leadership skills as well as following skills. 

Barry

 

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He who will not work neither shall he eat.  II Thes 3:10

it worked in my troop back in the day.     A less harsh version might be no s'mores or cider on Saturday night.

Edited by Oldscout448
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8 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

He who will not work neither shall he eat.  II Thes 3:10

 it worked in ny troop back in the day

@Oldscout448 I wish we could do that but we can't that because one of the snowflakes parents is always at a campout so he will just feed him, and second because Im pretty sure that violates G2SS.

@Eagledad I like the idea of making them work as a team, but it is difficult due to opportunities, one thing that seems to work for us our Councils Klondike at a summer camp it is held in February and requires the patrols to sled in and working as a team kind of like a winter camporee

One idea the SPL and I had to create bonding between the patrols is separating them patrol A is 100m away from patrol b unless we are doing patrol vs patrol activities, and maybe we have patrol campfires one night and troop campfire the other, where each patrol performs a joke or maybe a skit (our scouts HATE skits, songs, and cheers, I guess they think there for babies) what do you guys think is seriating the patrols a good idea

Chief027

Edited by chief027
Forgot phrase
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Great advice so far.  Patrols bonding as a team.  Rewards.  Duty roster buy-in.

I think there are many 11 year olds that have never had real chores.  Wash dishes is alien and repulsive.  For me, that was dissecting a frog in school.  That was hard to overcome and do.  I think there are kids that cleaning and doing chores is like my dissecting a frog.  It's repulsive.  For those scouts, we have to help them overcome it until they realize that it's just not that big of an issue.  I hope the SM, SPL and PL can learn techniques to de-escalate, district and guide the scout to do his work.  Eventually, he'll learn it's not that big of an issue.

Also, this is an opportunity for learning.  If the scout doesn't want to do his share and really fights, it is reasonable for the patrol to ask him to find another patrol.  Maybe he'll bounce around patrols until he finds a good home.  Maybe, he'll need to find somewhere outside of scouting to spend his time.  That itself will teach a lesson.  

Natural consequences of our choices are great lessons.  

Maybe the best natural lesson he'll learn is when he tries to eat the next meal and his dishes are covered with dried waste from the previous meal.  

 

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2 minutes ago, chief027 said:

One idea the SPL and I had to create bonding between the patrols is separating them patrol A is 100m away from patrol b ...

It's also a great way to separate the scout from his parent.  Often kids do better when their parents are not present.

Also, it's not just distance.  It's visibility.  It helps if there are trees or other obstructions so that when patrol A is cooking and eating, they can't see patrol B or see the adults.   

Edited by fred8033

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1 minute ago, fred8033 said:

It's also a great way to separate the scout from his parent.  Often kids do better when their parents are not present.

@fred8033 We try that but the parent thinks he is an adult leader (he's not even close) So he likes to 'supervise' the boys and make suggestions to our SPL which makes it difficult

*Note: His position is committee member which he is trying to get out of since it's "to much work"

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1 minute ago, chief027 said:

@fred8033 We try that but the parent thinks he is an adult leader (he's not even close) So he likes to 'supervise' the boys and make suggestions to our SPL which makes it difficult

*Note: His position is committee member which he is trying to get out of since it's "to much work"

Sadly, then you need an adult on the camp out who's job it is to distract the adults and get them away from the scouts.   It's not a bad job.  Invite the guy to go get coffee.  Invite him to sit with you at your camp fire.  Break out a deck of cards.  See if he wants to walk with you to go visit another side of camp.  Heck, new friendships are often built this way. 

Edited by fred8033
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 I don't think anyone ever starved to death by missing three meals.       I am not sure it's anywhere in GTSS

This is the kind of thing that kills patrols.  It's not  fair and they all know it.   Eventually some scout has his fill of carrying this loafer/snowflake and quits, which just increases the load on everyone else.  So they start quitting.   Or he just snaps and gives the nonworking lad a literal kick in the butt, or hits him over the head with a dirty sauce pan.   Which pretty much ends his scouting journey in that troop.   

I think if I were his PL I might announce that next campout everyone in the patrol  brings his own food and cooks and cleans his own mess kit.   

If Dad is not an ASM, why is he going on campouts?     

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@Oldscout448 The non-ASM father is attending because 1. we need adults for transportation, and 2. He likes to be with his grandson (father/ mother is-not in picture), I don't think his grandson has ever been on a campout with out them, including the past three years at summer camp (he has attended a decent amount of campouts and this started on day 1, 3 years ago and is know really been escalated to the Adult level.

Edited by chief027

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Sounds like you have 2 probles the boy and grandpa. I take it that you are not the SM, are you an ASM? One option is to discuss this in the committee - hey SM how well is the patrol method working? What are the issues you face? How can we help?

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"Okay gang, here is the duty roster.  We will be at the Muddy Creek campground next weekend, and you all know what that means.  Hauling in the gear, water faucet is aways to carry, campstove is HERE (show map)..  Everyone pick a job (pass the roster around).  If you are on the campout, ya gotta take a job. "A Scout is Trustworthy",  we all do a bit, it all gets done.  Jake, are you coming with your G'dad?   He camps with the adults, right?  You want to cook or clean up?  No,  you don't get served personally,  EVERYBODY pulls his weight in this Patrol. Don't forget the Patrol Pitch ! We can win the movie tickets if we keep our campsite looking good. …  "

 

 

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