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21 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

At summer camp, I had some down time while the boys were at their merit badges and I was the only one at our site, sitting in a chair reading a book.  One scout came back to the site.  Does one of us have to leave?

I think the arguments that this is mostly about BSA doing CYA for BSA and damn the scouters is correct.

There's no question that safe scouting and YPT rules need to be in place.  Good rules protect scouts and scouters.  When you make the rules impossible to follow, don't be surprised when it does further damage to the program.

I guess I should stop delaying buying that umbrella policy since BSA is setting us up as the Fall Guy for any issues.  One of our ASMs already talked to me about this.

Good grief, I just want to work with a fun program that safely helps boys develop skills for adulthood.

It can be a conundrum and if you start going down YPT and G2SS rabbit holes, second guessing yourself, and subscribing to the "McCarthyesque" YPT feeling that everyone is a predator, you may likely never leave the house and attend a scout meeting or event.

The buddy thing is great and useful, but often different Scouts have different interests and class schedules at summer camp.  The intent is for the boys to have a buddy, yet as many things that happen in the real world, out in the mud and the weeds, that may not be the case 100% of the time

We (our unit) definitely works under the guise of doing the best we can, abiding as closely as possible to rules and regs, and working to have a fun program and develop the leadership and citizenship skills for the young men.

Just last night I had a scout who wanted to review his Eagle project and also look over some merit badges.  We set it up via e-mail with mom and SM in copy.  He drove to the house, (wife was home at the time) we met in the driveway in clear view of by the garage (nice and shady), and completed the work.  You do what is needed in the spirit and intent of the YPT and G2SS to deliver the program.

Also I do have an umbrella policy. (and some nice umbrellas on the deck)

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Yeah, I was out in the open, not in a tent, reading my book. It just points out the flaws in the system. 

If a scout is taking a merit badge by himself at camp, the scout won't have a buddy (briefly).  It is a controlled environment.

The rules for who can tent with whom also seem to work on the assumption that everyone is heterosexual.  This actually was an issue for our troop last year where 1 boy allegedly made an inappropriate request of another boy in a tent.  The story changed so many times, it's impossible to know what was true.  Several boys, including the accused boy chose to go to another troop.

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4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Where was the scout's buddy? 

Send him away to get his buddy, continue to read your book in peace.

If a scout goes to a merit badge where he's the only one in our troop taking that badge at that time, he has no buddy.

In this specific case, the scout was having issues and wasn't going to his merit badges.  That was addressed.  However, scouts going solo to a merit badge can come back to the campsite to meet up with a buddy.

Camps like this require deviating from the rules or it would be very tough for scouts to take the merit badges they want.

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So if 2 adults over 21 need to be there for outings and meetings as of Oct, how is this going to work with summer camp program areas.  Currently most program areas run with a Director usually age 21, and an assistant age 18 and a handful of staff of various ages and genders.  They hold meetings with their staff in their program area, program area set up on pre-week before camp gets started, clean up after scouts are done with merit badges for the day, where other adult lleaders (scoutmasters with their scouts) aren't around, but where the director and asst director are around youth and aren't both age 21.

It's hard enough to get dedicated, mature people to step up to be director and asst director all summer for low pay at our summer camps.  They are very happy when dedicated staff turn 18 and could be an asst director.  But now it looks like both would have to be 21? The director usually gets paid a more cause they are 21, sin order to entice them, but now how to entice 2 age 21 year olds?

Whenever staff leaves summer camp to go into town--like to do laundry and shop for deodorant or go to the movies, most camps count that as an outing.  And our camp has always made it two adults in any vehicle, one of each gender since they hire youth female staff age 16 and 17.  But there aren't very many adult director females over age 21.

saying merit badge counselors aren't really leaders is false, they are adult leaders who fill out the adult leader application.  So it would have to say for a private meeting it's ok cause in view of others.  But what about merit badge roundups, where a classroom setting full of scouts is not a private meeting? Oh cause they are outnumbered by scouts no one on one, but certainly not two deep both over 21  that the new requirements seem to say has to exist for ANY scouting to occur.  But merit badge counseling doesn't require 2 adults, just 1 adult and a scout with his buddy. 

This isn't going to work out as intended.  All leadership positions are going to end up being only for people over 21, so nobody ever has to guess someone's age when looking around the room at a troop meeting.

 

 

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"Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings."

"One-on-one contact between adult leaders and youth members is prohibited both inside and outside of Scouting.

  • In situations requiring a personal conference, the meeting is to be conducted with the knowledge and in view of other adults and/or youth.

It's worth looking at the history of this requirement and what is being changed.  You may be conflating several different things into one.  It has long been the case (patrol outings a separate issue) that all "trips and outing" required two adults.  But that meant that you had to have two adults to go ahead with the trip, it never meant that the two adults had to be joined at the hip and go everywhere together, and it never meant that one adult couldn't during the course of the trip be the only adult with a group of scouts.  It did always say and mean that you could not be alone with a scout --- no one on one contact.  So you could then and can now have one adult in a car as long as there is more than one scout there.  You can be the only leader in a camp site whie the other leader is off at a meeting or the latrine or shower house as long as there are other scouts there.  If you need to have a private conversation with a scout you need to have that in public where other folks can see you.  

The change here is that it used to be permissible that you could have a meeting where there is only one adult.  The most common occurrence for this would have been a den meeting, but especially with smaller troops this would conceivably happen with a PLC where the only adult present was the SM, or even the occasional troop meeting where only one adult was able to show.  They have now changed this to mean that you can't go ahead with any of these meetings without two adults present.  The key here is that "meeting" is used as a formal term, den meeting, pack meeting, troop meeting, PLC meeting, not that anytime there are scouts or scouters together in the same place that that constitutes a "meeting" where you have to have two adults.  The no one on one contact is still the key.  So a merit badge class at camp is OK as long as there are two or more scouts and one adult, the program area is OK as long as there are either all adults or an adult of more than two people.  The "activity" at a mb roundup is the round up, the class room is not the meeting or activity, it's just the part of it where the protection comes from the no one on one contact rule.

Scouting is not unique in wrestling with this issue.  Virtually the same rules apply to almost any  youth activity today that you volunteer to be a part of.  

Edited by T2Eagle

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On 6/7/2018 at 8:46 AM, RememberSchiff said:

Where was the scout's buddy? 

Send him away to get his buddy, continue to read your book in peace.

technically speaking, by speaking to the scout to send them away, you have now had one on one contact with the scout and are in violation of policy.  The adult needs to get up and leave in order to comply with policy. 

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34 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

technically speaking, by speaking to the scout to send them away, you have now had one on one contact with the scout and are in violation of policy.  The adult needs to get up and leave in order to comply with policy. 

Castle doctrine invoked.  :)

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On 6/18/2018 at 3:24 PM, Gwaihir said:

technically speaking, by speaking to the scout to send them away, you have now had one on one contact with the scout and are in violation of policy.  The adult needs to get up and leave in order to comply with policy. 

I asked what to do when the phone rang and it was a Scout when that rule appeared a couple years ago.  Never got a fix - just wide-eyed stares from paid Scouters and ignored by National.

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On 6/14/2018 at 1:28 PM, T2Eagle said:

"Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings."

"One-on-one contact between adult leaders and youth members is prohibited both inside and outside of Scouting.

  • In situations requiring a personal conference, the meeting is to be conducted with the knowledge and in view of other adults and/or youth.

It's worth looking at the history of this requirement and what is being changed.  You may be conflating several different things into one.  It has long been the case (patrol outings a separate issue) that all "trips and outing" required two adults.  But that meant that you had to have two adults to go ahead with the trip, it never meant that the two adults had to be joined at the hip and go everywhere together, and it never meant that one adult couldn't during the course of the trip be the only adult with a group of scouts.  It did always say and mean that you could not be alone with a scout --- no one on one contact.  So you could then and can now have one adult in a car as long as there is more than one scout there.  You can be the only leader in a camp site whie the other leader is off at a meeting or the latrine or shower house as long as there are other scouts there.  If you need to have a private conversation with a scout you need to have that in public where other folks can see you.  

The change here is that it used to be permissible that you could have a meeting where there is only one adult.  The most common occurrence for this would have been a den meeting, but especially with smaller troops this would conceivably happen with a PLC where the only adult present was the SM, or even the occasional troop meeting where only one adult was able to show.  They have now changed this to mean that you can't go ahead with any of these meetings without two adults present.  The key here is that "meeting" is used as a formal term, den meeting, pack meeting, troop meeting, PLC meeting, not that anytime there are scouts or scouters together in the same place that that constitutes a "meeting" where you have to have two adults.  The no one on one contact is still the key.  So a merit badge class at camp is OK as long as there are two or more scouts and one adult, the program area is OK as long as there are either all adults or an adult of more than two people.  The "activity" at a mb roundup is the round up, the class room is not the meeting or activity, it's just the part of it where the protection comes from the no one on one contact rule.

Scouting is not unique in wrestling with this issue.  Virtually the same rules apply to almost any  youth activity today that you volunteer to be a part of.  


BIG CHANGES

Now two have to be registered.  Not enough to be a parent.  Nuts.  Adults who are, as a matter of settled law, NOT in loco parentis trump actual parents.  This does not pass the smell test.  $$$$$$$$

Plus a patrol could take a front country hike or meet with no adults present.  This more recent and more general rule either changes that to require at least two adults "at" the meeting OR further evidence (were it needed) of  massive incompetence in communication."

"Scouting is not unique in wrestling with this issue.  "   

We in the U.S. are not unique in having racism, but I care more about our failings because  I am an American.  I belong here.   Do I try to excuse what we did and do because the Japanese  tried to exterminate their indigenous people -- ditto Canada, Australia, Brazil?    

Nor is the Little League supposed to be youth led.

What gets in the way Scouting is questionable at best.

 

 

 

 

Edited by TAHAWK

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12 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

I asked what to do when the phone rang and it was a Scout when that rule appeared a couple years ago.  Never got a fix - just wide-eyed stares from paid Scouters and ignored by National.

This is just my opinion, but I doubt that the people at National believe that you are supposed to hang up on the Scout without saying a word, or flee silently from the campsite when you unexpectedly find yourself and a Scout being the only people there.  (It is all well and good to ask where the Scout's buddy is, as some ask in these discussions, but the fact is that the buddy isn't there. Maybe the buddy had a bad fall on the trail and can't walk, and the Scout came to the closest place where he thought he might find help, which happened to be the campsite where one adult is sitting in a chair reading the Guide to Safe Scouting or some other scintillating literature.)

The problem is that while National may believe it is ok to briefly tell the Scout on the phone that you cannot speak with him without his parent on the phone (or some other solution that does not violate no-1-on-1), or to briefly tell the Scout that he needs to be elsewhere where there are other Scouts, or with his buddy, or if the Scout is there to tell you that his buddy is laying on the ground with a broken leg a short distance away, you go to the injured Scout - and quite frankly I think you take the uninjured Scout with you, which means the 1-on-1 situation continues, but avoids a 1-on-1 situation with a injured Scout), National does not want to say that because they are afraid that once they allow judgment and common sense to enter the mix, they will be blamed for any misinterpretations by a local Scouter of the scope of that "exception."  (Which would be a reasonable concern, but I think it is more important for National to make things clear so neither Tahawk nor me nor any of us other toilers in the field will have to wonder what we are supposed to do when we pick up the phone and it's a Scout who has not conferenced in his parent.)

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"Zero tolerance" avoids making judgments -applying reason - taking responsibility.  💀

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8 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

"Zero tolerance" avoids making judgments -applying reason - taking responsibility.  💀

Do you think the BSA has a zero tolerance policy?  Meaning that they actually enforce such a policy?  In any area?  (Other than actual abuse or other criminality, or the payment of registration fees.)

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Don't know. 

 

To me, prohibitions without room for exception/lienency are zero tolerance rules.

 

Would it be OK if they say "never" and do not enforce the rule on some secret basis, such as not letting the two-registered-adult rule get in the way of merit badge millery at summer camp (or the rule that all merit badge counselors - all- must be registered as such [so 18 years of age or older])?

 

A program on NPR last night quoted someone regarding a President that he had high ideals and no principles. 

 

BSA has high ideals.

Edited by TAHAWK

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