Uniforms and Scout Spirit

[andysmom]

At last nights committee meeting there was a side rant about scouts not wearing their uniforms to troop meetings or not having their neckers or wearing sweatshirts over the uniforms. It was mentioned that there should be some sort of announcement that wearing the uniform shows scout spirit and that not wearing it properly shows a lack of scout spirit. (Scoutmaster has pointed out that a scout uniform is the same as a sports uniform, you make sure you have it, even if you have something going on before practice and the same should hold true for scout uniforms). Committee Chair stated "let me sit in on a couple of boards of review" and they will start wearing the uniform properly, implying that he would hold a boy from advancing because he is not showing scout spirit if he isn't wearing his complete uniform.

 

I know a boy cannot be held back from advancing because he does not wear a uniform to a bor as long as he is,neat in his appearance, but does not wearing a uniform show a lack of scout spirit? They are claiming not wearing the uniform properly goes against "a scout is clean" and "a scout is loyal" as in loyal to the troop and "a scout is obedient" as in following rules is obedient and our rules are you wear a uniform. Thoughts?

 

My thoughts are that it is a topic for discussion, but While the BSA prefers boys to wear the uniform as it is one of the methods of scouting, it does not require them. I should point out that all of our scouts own a uniform shirt and are asked to purchase a class B shirt and ball cap. Neckers are given to scouts when they join the troop

Edited March 31, 2016 by andysmom

[Krampus]

We had a similar issue a while ago. We "requested" Scouts wear their Class A properly. Took a few months but they caught on. Since then they wear the uniform completely more often than not. Did not withhold advancement but did note if they were not wearing the uniform.

[qwazse]

Hear's the deal. Boys are smart. If they feel people are manipulating them via advancement, they'll stop advancing.

 

If on the other hand, they actually believe they can be better scouts by wearing their uniform, they will.

So have more carrots. Greet scouts. In a friendly manner ask them what happened to their pants/shirt/necker. This is especially true of boards of review. Ask the boy how he can fix it. (Maybe that's what your CC meant by sitting in on BoR's.)

 

Any SM/ASM who shows up out of uniform, when he/she greets scouts apologize to the boys for whatever is missing. If only one or two scouts are at an activity in uniform, award them a patch from your bloated collection. Scouts in uniform are first in line for snacks. Only scouts in uniform may be color guard. We've had SPL's borrow a scout shirt from he closet to lead a ceremony. The SPL should hold uniform inspection routinely. Patrols with the highest average score get a totem on their flag (e.g. an arrowhead with binoculars could be a Look Sharp award.)

 

Eventually boys will determine their own sticks.

[jjlash]

The CC (nor the BOR) can deny advancement on the basis of Scout Spirit.  Scout Spirit is a requirement for each rank and by the time of the BOR it has already been signed off.  If the Scoutmaster is not the one who signed it off, he basically approved it by holding a SM Conference and recommending the Scout for BOR.  The Scoutmaster (or a delegate) determines if requirements are met - if he doesnt think the Scout is showing proper spirit he has that conversation during the conference.  The purpose of the BOR is to monitor the quality of program that the SM is providing.  If the Committee doesnt think that a Scout is showing proper spirit, they can bring that up with the SM - who can choose to do something, or not.

 

The second thing would be making sure the adults are setting the example by being in complete uniform all the time.  Partial uniforming has become one of my pet peeves - either wear the uniform or don't but don't "kind of" wear it.  Around here the worst examples of this are at OA meetings/events where everyone wears their uniform shirt with jeans.

[andysmom]

Thanks all, I agree with everything posted.

The thing is most of our boys wear the uniform to meetings. Things that are being discussed are, in my opinion, nit picky. The complaints range from, not wearing the necker, to scouts loosing their slide, to wearing bulky sweatshirts over the uniform and the one that got the ball rolling was a scout who pulls his wrinkled shirt from a plastic bag at every meeting.

 

Our committee chair has the misguided idea that he needs to slow boys down of he feels they are advancing too fast. This conversation came on the heels of my insisting they schedule a life bor for a scout who turned 15, 2 months ago. This same scout had his star rank deferred because he and our old cc thought he "wasn't ready" to be a star scout. The only reason it was agreed to be scheduled because I did some looking back through our records and pointed out that of our last 17 life scouts, their average age was 15 years 3 mos. this scout had his smc and requested a bor on February 22.

 

When he tries to hold a scout back because he equates wearing a sweatshirt over the uniform, or showing up with no necker to a troop meeting because he thinks it shows poor scout spirit, I need to have a strong argument to fight for our boys.

[Eagledad]

The Scout program was created to build character. It is designed so that a boy finds character by learning from choices he makes during the scouting activities. Is wearing the proper uniform to Troop meetings a right or wrong choice? He only has to open his Scout Handbook to find out. Not the SPL, not the PLC, not older scouts and certainly not the adults. The Scout Handbook has the quick simple answer.

 

Barry

[Sentinel947]

qwazse's post says basically what I was going to say.

[CalicoPenn]

I hate the "Scout Spirit" requirement - no one really understands it and the BSA isn't really all that good at explaining what it means objectively which just opens a gate for adults like this CC, who I'm sure is just trying to do his best based on his understanding of the program, to play all sorts of games of mischief with the Scouts advancement.  I really wish the BSA would either define it exactly, or dump this stupid requirement. 

 

As for this CC, who I'm sure is just trying to do his best based on his understanding of the program (have I satisfied all the "we don't have his side of the story" people yet?) - he needs to get retrained pronto - or shuffled out of his position of "authority".  It is neither his, nor anyone else's job (other than the Scout himself and perhaps the Scout's parents) to try to hold up a Scout's advancement because they are too young, or "aren't ready yet".  This uniform kerfuffle is an example of adult power playing and has no place at all in Scouting.  The BSA strongly encourages the wearing of the uniform - there is no where, in any literature, including any literature regarding advancement, where the uniform is actually required.  The BSA's position is that it is far more important for a boy to be engaged in the program that for him to be in full uniform.  If the only thing a Scout can afford is a shirt - that's great!  Wear all the jeans you want.  Scouts lose slides all the time - just have a supply of them on hand to replace a lost one (ask Scouts that are leaving the Troop - either because of aging out or because of loss of interest) if they'll donate their slides to a slide bank.  But even then, neckerchiefs, like any other part of the uniform, are optional.  A scout pulling a wrinkled shirt out of a plastic bag?  As long as it's clean - great - he's wearing part of the uniform! 

 

Some of the folks on this forum think that the Scout's should stand up for themselves in cases like this - all well and good except a 12 year old boy, even a 16 or 17 year old boy, especially a Scout, can find it hard to stand up to authority figures like a Scoutmaster or Committee Chair.  The Scoutmaster should be standing up to the CC for his Scouts - a friendly chat over a breakfast or lunch would be a good start to get the CC back on page - but if that doesn't work, the SM should be prepared to be full-throated in defense of his Scouts - and the ASM's should be lining up right behind the SM - especially if they've been trained and understand what is really important.

 

Should we encourage the Boys to wear a full uniform?  You bet.  Should we be setting the example by wearing the full uniform ourselves?  You bet!  Should we allow some adult playing "I've got power" games to deny advancement to Scouts because of age or because they didn't wear the full uniform to a BOR?  Absolutely Not - and we should make that known loud and clear to the adults attempting to do so.

[Stosh]

Scout:

Explain what Scout spirit is. Describe some ways you have shown Scout spirit by

practicing the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout slogan
 

Tenderfoot:

Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you

have done your duty to God and how you have lived four different points of the

Scout Law in your everyday life.

 

Second Class:

Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how

you have done your duty to God and how you have lived four different points

of the Scout Law (not to include those used for Tenderfoot requirement.

 

First Class:

Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you

have done your duty to God and how you have lived four different points of

the Scout Law (different from those points used for previous ranks) in your

everyday life.

 

Star:

As a First Class Scout, demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and

Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God and how you have lived

the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life

 

Life:

As a Star Scout, demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout

Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God and how you have lived the

Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life.

 

Eagle:

As a Life Scout, demonstrate Scout Spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout

Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God, how you have lived the Scout

Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life, and how your understanding of the

Scout Oath and Scout Law will guide your life in the future. List on your Eagle

Scout Rank Application the names of individuals who know you personally

and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including

parents/guardians, religious (if not affiliated with an organized religion, then

the parent or guardian provides this reference), educational, employer (if

employed), and two other references.

 

I find it rather strange that out of all the Scout Spirit requirements, the not wearing of the non-required uniform is deemed appropriate to punish a scout into compliance to some standard set by an adult.

 

Get real, people, getting the boys to show up at all in this day and age is an accomplishment in Scout Spirit.

 

And this coming from the guy who's accused of coloring outside the lines when it comes to BSA compliance.....

 

@@CalicoPenn  One demonstrates Scout Spirit by living the Scout Oath and Law.  Don't over-think it.  It's not that difficult if one knows what the Oath and Law is. 

Edited March 31, 2016 by Stosh

[andysmom]

Thanks CalicoPen.

Our current CC has no training other than youth protection. None. He was SM about 15 years ago and was basically appointed to the position behind the backs of the rest of the committee by the previous cc who wrote a letter to the CO recommending him before anyone knew the previous cc was leaving. Previous Cc held the position for 18 years and did his committee challenge then and nothing since.

Our committee is made up primarily of older men who haven't had children in the program in several years (one of them has no children but earned his Eagle rank in the troop in 1968 I believe)

 

SM will stand up for the boys, he has in the past and it was an ugly confrontation. DE was called in to explain that you cannot retest (boy was tossed a rope and told to tie a specific knot, boy couldn't and was "off" for the rest of the board). The scout was deferred for 2 weeks and was told that he needed to show leadership by teaching the committee how to set up a tent. Ridiculous..

 

They are basically looking at ways to hold boys up until the feel a scout is "ready" to advance, but no one can explain what "ready" means as it is "different for each boy". The life bor is the "last chance" to hold a boy back. The current cc has it in his head that I'd we "let" a scout eagle too soon we will never see him again.

 

I am just trying to get my guide to advancement highlighted and ready to pull out during a board to point out that what they are doing is wrong. SM will go to district himself with a scout if a boy is held back without cause, but as you can imagine the SM and cc do not get along

[Krampus]

 

Should we encourage the Boys to wear a full uniform?  You bet.  Should we be setting the example by wearing the full uniform ourselves?  You bet!  Should we allow some adult playing "I've got power" games to deny advancement to Scouts because of age or because they didn't wear the full uniform to a BOR?  Absolutely Not - and we should make that known loud and clear to the adults attempting to do so.

 

This!

 

But I will add that your PLC, SPL and PLs should set the example of wearing the uniform properly and setting the expectation that wearing the uniform properly is part of being a good Scout.

[Krampus]

The life bor is the "last chance" to hold a boy back. The current cc has it in his head that I'd we "let" a scout eagle too soon we will never see him again.

 

 

If he keeps treating them like that I'm surprised you see them at the next meeting.

 

I suspect there are not many other troop options in your area?

[qwazse]

Here's one more thing, it is okay for scouts to see adults respectfully disagree.

 

Sometimes there is a little push-pull between SMs and CCs. And, between guys in general, we can disagree hotly but in a pinch we have each other's back and the coffee's on first thing in the morning. So take all the drama with a grain of salt.

 

Lost slides? Teach the friendship knot. Good enough until the boy can get a hold of some chord and tie a turkshead.

 

As far as scout spirit, I'm usually not asking a boy about anything that transpires during a meeting. But are they a scout when nobody's watching and the uniform's off? That question has to be asked carefully, because boys are their worst critics and tears can flow.

[Stosh]

THIS IS WHY ADULT RUN TROOPS ARE COUNTER TO THE PRINCIPLES OF THE BSA!

 

They look good on the surface, but underneath they are doing more damage than one could ever imagine.

 

The same holds true for the uniform!  A boy can look terrific with an impeccable uniform worn military perfect, but if the boy in that uniform holds contempt for the Scout Oath and Law, the picture is totally useless.

[CalicoPenn]

Stosh,

 

I'm with you on living the Scout Oath and the Scout Law - now please explain what that means objectively - how do you measure it - especially if it's self-reporting.  I think we could all agree that cheating on a test isn't living up to the Scout Oath or Scout Law but if the Scout is never caught at it, and never self-reports it - how are you going to determine that he's not lived up to the Scout Oath and the Scout Law?  I certainly don't disagree with this definition at all but I stand by my statement that the BSA never really defines it objectively - even this definition is nebulous. 

 

Do we really need a requirement that says "Demonstrate Scout Spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law" when we have a certain percentage of adults that will grab ahold of that nebulous Scout Spirit concept and run in wild directions with it?  Why not a simple and clean "Discuss how you have lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law"?

 

Krampus - Excellent addition - Thank you.

 

Andysmom - I re-read your original post and a couple of additional things popped out at me:

 

A Scout is Loyal.  So my question to the CC would be "How are you being loyal to the boys in this Troop?"

 

A Scout is Obedient.  My question to the CC would be "How are you being obedient by not following the directions and policies of the BSA?"

 

The Scout Oath and the Scout Law should never be seen to apply to the Scouts only - the adults in the Troop should be following those principles as well.  I would hope that one of the things we teach our Scouts is that the Scout Oath and the Scout Law isn't something we do only while we are Scouts but follows us in to our adulthood - even when we are no longer part of Scouting.

Edited March 31, 2016 by CalicoPenn