Blue Cards signed by SM

[zuzy]

Hi There, son is tying things up towards Eagle.  changed troops 1.5 years ago.  Was working on Personal fitness merit badge, started at summer camp 3 years ago.  Current troops advancement coordinator send son email stating that she cannot submit this blue card to council because current SM did not sign the card, he needs to sign it before turning in the card?   What?

 

Why would new SM have to sign the card when it has already been signed and started at summer camp 3 years ago?  Is this right?

 

Just wondering

[Krampus]

Hi There, son is tying things up towards Eagle.  changed troops 1.5 years ago.  Was working on Personal fitness merit badge, started at summer camp 3 years ago.  Current troops advancement coordinator send son email stating that she cannot submit this blue card to council because current SM did not sign the card, he needs to sign it before turning in the card?   What?

 

Why would new SM have to sign the card when it has already been signed and started at summer camp 3 years ago?  Is this right?

 

Just wondering

 

The unit leader signs the card TWICE. Once when the blue card is requested and again AFTER the MB is completed and the counselor signs off. So the card, to be valid requires TWO Scoutmaster signatures and the MB counselor signature.

 

The counselor is doing your son a favor. Most councils will turn down cards that are not properly signed which may delay him making Eagle.

 

BTW, I would start making sure now that ALL dates in his scout handbook match all the official dates in his official record. I have seen dates get screwed up for scouts that transfer. Better to align things now than to wait.

[dfolson]

Our Council doesn't do anything with the actual blue cards.   A unit either fills out an advancement report and turns the report in to the council or it is done through online advancement.  

[qwazse]

Although I'm not clear under which SM he actually finished the badge, let's assume he did so shortly after camp ...

 

That was sloppy work by your previous SM. Your son should have had the MB in hand the CoH after he came from camp.

 

But, the SM's 2nd signature, is in the applicant's portion of the card. (I.e., the one that should have been given back to the boy as soon as the SM signed it.) The purpose of that is so that the boy has proof from the SM that he turned in the unit copy of the blue card and that a merit badge is forthcoming - just in case the unit and the counselor lost their portions of the application.

 

The only part the advancement chair should need to file the application is the unit copy, which has the SM's 1st signature, and the counselor's signature.

 

Therefore, if the unit has the unit portion of the card, it is incumbent on the SM to sign the applicant portion. And GIVE THAT PORTION BACK TO THE APPLICANT!!!!!!!!! Normally, this happens when the boy gets the badge. But, given that some time has elapsed and an Eagle application will soon be filled out, the boy should ask for an exception.

Edited February 17, 2016 by qwazse

[Eagledad]

Our council uses the white cards that don't require a 2nd SM signature. I have never understood the purpose of 2nd SM signature. The counselors signature is the important one.

 

Barry

[qwazse]

Our council uses the white cards that don't require a 2nd SM signature. I have never understood the purpose of 2nd SM signature. The counselors signature is the important one.

 

Barry

Well, from http://www.scouting.org/Home/GuideToAdvancement/TheMeritBadgeProgram.aspx

Once a registered counselor signs that all requirements have been met, the Scout should meet with his unit leader to discuss his experience. The unit leader then signs the Applicant’s Record portion and returns it to the young man, who should retain it in his personal permanent records.

 

So, that 2nd signature is to prod the SM to have a little more conversation with the boy?

[Eagledad]

Well, from http://www.scouting.org/Home/GuideToAdvancement/TheMeritBadgeProgram.aspx

Once a registered counselor signs that all requirements have been met, the Scout should meet with his unit leader to discuss his experience. The unit leader then signs the Applicant’s Record portion and returns it to the young man, who should retain it in his personal permanent records.

 

So, that 2nd signature is to prod the SM to have a little more conversation with the boy?

Yes, and I can see the value of counselor critique, but from my experience with the one signature white card, I have no desire to add the second formal check. It's simply a bureaucratic step of forcing units to follow a process. We are supposed to encourage independence, yet we keep checking on them. This is one check that from my experience isn't required.

 

Barry

[John-in-KC]

The Appication for Merit Badge #34124 has specific procedures tagged to it in the Guide to Advancement #33088:

 

It is important to note the “blue card†is the nationally recognized merit badge record. It has been updated from time to time and carries the information needed for proper posting and for evidence and reference as needed later. The card has three parts: the actual “Application for Merit Badge†portion, the “Applicant’s Record,†and the “Counselor’s Record.†It requires a total of four signatures—two each from the unit leader and a merit badge counselor. The unit leader signs first on the front of the Application for Merit Badge portion and gives the entire blue card to the Scout. See “The Scout, the Blue Card, and the Unit Leader,†7.0.0.3.

 

Typically after the unit leader signs the blue card, the Scout contacts the merit badge counselor and sets an appointment. Even though Scouts may benefit from reviewing requirements with a counselor before pursuing them, a boy may begin working on a merit badge at any time after he is registered. It is the counselor’s decision whether to accept work or activities completed prior to the issuing of the signed blue card. Common sense should prevail, however. For example, nights already camped as a Boy Scout, or coins or stamps already collected, would count toward their respective badges.

 

A merit badge counselor—once he or she is satisfied a Scout has met all the requirements—signs in two places:  on the reverse of the Application for Merit Badge (to the left) and on the Applicant’s Record (in the middle). ... (portion omitted) ... Once a registered counselor signs that all requirements have been met, the Scout should meet with his unit leader to discuss his experience. The unit leader then signs the Applicant’s Record portion and returns it to the young man, who should retain it in his personal permanent records.

 

Boldface, italics, and redface are my annotations...JKC

 

As an aside, the portion about the MB card being the only authorized form has been deleted...

 

The Application for Merit Badge is not the form filed with the local council.  From the GTA:

 

4.0.0.2 Reporting Advancement
All Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, and Sea Scout ranks, and all Venturing advancement awards must be reported to local councils.* The best and most accurate method is through the BSA’s Internet portal for reporting advancement (see “Internet Advancement Reporting,†6.0.0.0, for more detail on reporting). At the council’s discretion, the paper form, Advancement Report, No. 34403, may also be submitted.

*An advancement report is not required to purchase adventure loops or pins. However, to ensure that each Cub Scout’s record is complete and accurate, all adventures—required and elective—should be posted in the BSA system using the Internet portal for reporting advancement.

 

Highlighted box on page 18:

All badges of rank, merit badges, Eagle Palms, and Venturing awards are restricted items. Unit leadership may not purchase these insignia for presentation without having filed an advancement report with the local council.

 

So, the answer to the question is the UNIT needs to file an advancement report, either using the Internet Advancement portal or a paper Advancement Report, with the local council.

Edited February 17, 2016 by John-in-KC

[John-in-KC]

Moderator's Note:  Topic moved to Advancement Resources.

[qwazse]

Yes, and I can see the value of counselor critique, but from my experience with the one signature white card, I have no desire to add the second formal check. It's simply a bureaucratic step of forcing units to follow a process. We are supposed to encourage independence, yet we keep checking on them. This is one check that from my experience isn't required.

 

Barry

I'm just quoting from a published source, as is JiK. But it sounds like you would rather our sources give as reason the bitter truth:

So that when the occasional advancement report fails to be filed with council, a boy will hold sufficient evidence that he earned the merit badge and reported doing so.

 

I have not had experience with one-signature white cards. But it sounds like they add a layer of trust to offset redundancy.

[T2Eagle]

My council works very hard to discourage even paper Advancement reports, strongly encouraging everyone to submit them online; they certainly don't want to have anything to do with Blue Cards let alone scrutinize them to the point of knowing whether the current SM or someone else signed them.  My own signature is an illegible scrawl so they'd have no way to check my troop's blue cards even if they wanted to.  But that's a discussion for a different day.

 

It's doubtful that your Council, even if they actually want the original blue card, is going to check that the signature is the current SM and not a prior SM, and there certainly is no rule that the current SM has to be the signatory of the "Unit Copy" portion of the card.  So you could maybe have a discussion with your advancement coordinator and convince him/her to just submit the thing, or maybe she has experience with Council being silly and the current SM really does need to sign the card so that the council doesn't do something even dumber.  

 

I would spend about a minute talking to the Advancement person to make sure you understand what she wants and why, I would spend another minute asking them why they didn't just get the SM signature  themselves, then I would have your son get the signature and explain to him that sometimes adults are morons who insist on ridiculous levels of unnecessary bureaucracy, and that often times the futility of trying to correct that just isn't worth the individual effort.

Edited February 17, 2016 by T2Eagle

[Krampus]

Let's be clear about the blue card process:

• It does not matter if the current or past SM signs a blue card. No one verifies whether the name on it is real, fake, past or present. Council just wants the unit approval for the scout to start an MB.
• The MBC signs to acknowledge their information and completion of the MB.
• The unit lead (or designee) signs noting that the blue card was completed and properly filled out.

The problem in the OP is simply because of adults wanting to have their power trip. It has nothing to do with the blue cards, the process or the validity of blue cards or online systems. The blue card is meant to be a process for helping scouts track their progress AND an audit trail in case someone screws up.

 

The simple fix here is for the SM to sign after discussing with the scout his work on the MB if the SM has any questions. 

[SSScout]

Here again is evidence of the desire to forget the past.

  I have all my MBcards (back in the days of candle lit TV watching) from my Scout days.  I think it is nice to look at that signature (and I have, since first collecting them), and remember that man who complimented me on the airplane wing model I built. That SM who taught me the Square Lashing.   That SPL that is now a professor of mathematics who saw me light a fire with two matches. 

Todays Scouts are being short changed by our desire to not pile up Advancement Reports in some dusty filing cabinet.  White MBpaper?   I had one card, that the MBC signed, I took that back to my SM who countersigned it and then handcopied the record of that (or somebody did) onto the Troop records. There was only the one card, and I kept that.

Oh sure, I have the MBsash, and the old patches off the shirt.  But that is not the same as the printing that an old man did on that yellow/buff card. It was by his hand.

I desired to find out when my home Troop had been founded, maybe organize an anniversary BBQ.   Went down to Council and asked about the old records, say, 1954, 1956.  The nice lady at the desk led me over to a microfilm /fiche machine and a small cabinet and said "here you are. Help yourself".     I had to figure out how the film records were arranged and how to operate the machine, I was the first to ask in a long time, it seemed.

When I found the record, faded and hard to read in that negative even if it was magnified,  I again read the names of the men who drove me to camp, helped me learn about the woods,  let me cry on their shoulder when I was homesick ( and didn't laugh at me),  let me take responsibility for water, wood, cooking and being buddies with my Patrol.  

Email ain't the same, not 50 years later..... 

What is wrong with making sure the Scout has a small card to file away in a folder or shoebox? 

[perdidochas]

Hi There, son is tying things up towards Eagle.  changed troops 1.5 years ago.  Was working on Personal fitness merit badge, started at summer camp 3 years ago.  Current troops advancement coordinator send son email stating that she cannot submit this blue card to council because current SM did not sign the card, he needs to sign it before turning in the card?   What?

 

Why would new SM have to sign the card when it has already been signed and started at summer camp 3 years ago?  Is this right?

 

Just wondering

SM signs at two different times--at beginning and when completed. 

 

As a former advancement chair, I never submitted any blue cards to council--only internet advancement reports. Nowhere in GTA does it say that the council is to take up blue cards. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by perdidochas