What does nonsectarian mean to you?

[Peregrinator]

That's fine if others want to share it. Make the offer but don't shove it in their face.

I think some people feel you're shoving it in their face if you make the offer.

[MattR]

So the question: would you be offended if an overtly Muslim' date=' Hindu, Zoroastrian, or other non-Christian prayer was used to open a district or council event (unit events are a different issue)? If yes, why? And if yes, are you also offended by overtly Christian prayers (and if no to that, why not)? Does your local district or council have a rule against non-Christian prayers at district or council events?[/quote']

 

It's kind of like deciding whether a scout did the work for a POR, or whether a person is moral in the eyes of his religious beliefs, or whether a man is truly sorry for a mistake he made. What are they really thinking? We talk about servant leadership as caring for the people in our group. Did the person leading the overtly Christian prayer consider the non-Christians in the room? When people berate me for not taking off my hat during their prayer I assume either ignorance of my religious beliefs or complete disregard for them. So, to answer your question, somewhere between annoyance and offended. Either way I don't feel like praying with them. The guy that told the Muslim to keep quiet so he wouldn't offend anyone was beyond belief. To paraphrase the Dalai Lama: "I like your Scout Oath and Scout Law, I just don't like your Scouters. They are so unlike each other."

 

Packsaddle, religious expression occurs as "part of a herd" because a big part of religion is developing a community. If it's done with the right intent and the right spirit, it's a very good thing. I go to services and it's a calming thing that brings us together. We sing prayers, we think about our relationship with God, we drink wine, we break bread together (literally), we commune. It makes us better as individuals and closer as a group. I'm also fairly sure Mormons would not approve of the wine. That's why I wouldn't suggest at a roundtable to say a prayer over wine. It's simply a matter of understanding who you're with and caring enough about them to do the right thing. Since that's a big part of what we're trying to teach the scouts, maybe we should do it ourselves.

[King Ding Dong]

That's fine if others want to share it. Make the offer but don't shove it in their face.

That is because you are putting someone in the very uncomfortable position of rejecting your faith.

[Jeffrey H]

Non-sectarian means that the BSA will respect and welcome our Pack conducting a Christian scout's own service that meets the needs of our Pack family members. It also means they will respect and welcome our decision not to offer a multi-faith or inter-faith service. Also, we will be respected and welcome if we choose not do one at all.

[Khaliela]

What non-sectarian means to me and what it means to my council are entirely different. To me it means that a scout must believe in a higher power, but nowhere does it state which higher power. To my Council non-sectarian means non-denominational Christian.

 

At Wood Badge last June I was told that my religion was occult and had no place in Scouting. (I’m Druid; goddess forbid that scouts interact with people who worship nature and count the solstices and equinoxes as holy days!) The upshot of “coming out†as a non-Christian was that I was not allowed to complete my ticket. Then when our committee chair stepped down in January our Troop Committee wanted to put me in his place, but our council said they would revoke our charter if I was Committee Chair.

 

Speaking from experience I can honestly say that I hear a lot about how membership is left up to the units, but even when a unit accepts a non-Christian there can still be significant obstacles from the council and national.

 

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forums, Khaliela.

What you describe makes me very discouraged on behalf of the scout law. But at least they're honest about their apocalyptic stupidity. Other councils might offer some mealy-mouthed deception to accomplish the same end while trying to maintain an appearance of fairness. It is just so sad, the hypocrisy.

[Scouter99]

What non-sectarian means to me and what it means to my council are entirely different. To me it means that a scout must believe in a higher power' date=' but nowhere does it state which higher power. To my Council non-sectarian means non-denominational Christian. At Wood Badge last June I was told that my religion was occult and had no place in Scouting. (I’m Druid; goddess forbid that scouts interact with people who worship nature and count the solstices and equinoxes as holy days!) The upshot of “coming out†as a non-Christian was that I was not allowed to complete my ticket. Then when our committee chair stepped down in January our Troop Committee wanted to put me in his place, but our council said they would revoke our charter if I was Committee Chair. Speaking from experience I can honestly say that I hear a lot about how membership is left up to the units, but even when a unit accepts a non-Christian there can still be significant obstacles from the council and national. [/quote']

 

Your Wood Badge counselor and Council are wrong and in violation of National policy; you should contact your Region or National and have the situation resolved. The Declaration of Religious Principle (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/GuideToAdvancement/Appendix/CharterAndBylaws.aspx) requires no specific faith, only faith. It also explicitly mandates reverence toward difference faiths in carrying out activities.

[Khaliela]

Scouter99:

I wrote two letters to national and got no response. The official word is that I was not prevented for holding leadership positions, removed as a district trainer, and prevented from completing my ticket because I’m not Christian. I was removed because I refused to adhere to the principals taught at Wood Badge.

 

Basically, I didn’t wear the hat unless forced because in my religion your head is sacred and should not be covered. Then, by asking for religious accommodations I wasn’t following the patrol method because everyone in the patrol has to do the same thing, so I can’t go off on my own at any point for any reason AND I had to participate in all the Christian Religious ceremonies.

 

[walk in the woods]

Are non-Christian prayers acceptable at council or district events? At my local council and district events' date=' the opening prayer or invocation usually takes one of two forms: overtly Christian (“In Jesus’ name, amenâ€Â) or generic (“May the great Scout Master...â€Â). Almost never overtly Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. Now I live in a diverse region, we have many churches and temples of different faiths in the area (there is even a Zoroastrian temple in town - I’ve been told one of the local troops has a pair of Zoroastrian scouts). In my own pack, most of the families are various flavors of Christian (mostly Catholic), but we have, or have had, Muslims, Jewish and Hindu families. So this topic came up for discussion with some scouters at a round table BBQ a while back. One of the scouters said that his previous council (he has recently moved to our area) all the prayers were overtly Christian, and he had offered to give a Muslim prayer to open a round table (he is Muslim). He was told no because too many scouters would be offended so it wasn’t allowed (there is a story he was told to go along with that - I don’t want to derail the discussion, so I won’t repeat it here). I found this to be very surprising (and hope what he was told was incorrect). I have no reason to believe a similar rule exists in my local council or district. So the question: would you be offended if an overtly Muslim, Hindu, Zoroastrian, or other non-Christian prayer was used to open a district or council event (unit events are a different issue)? If yes, why? And if yes, are you also offended by overtly Christian prayers (and if no to that, why not)? Does your local district or council have a rule against non-Christian prayers at district or council events?[/quote']

 

 

Our council pretty much keeps it generic. I would have no problem with Muslim or Jewish or Buddhist or any other prayer (with the exception of Satanic) at a Scout event, provided that it was done by a Scout or Scouter of whatever faith.

Not to be too much of a troll, but, if we're only required to be believers in a higher power, and we're not allowed to preach any particular faith, why not Satanic? What makes Satanism "less" of a religion that Christianity or Islam or Druids? How do you draw that line?

 

FWIW, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/3948329.stm.

[JoeBob]

Scouter99:

I wrote two letters to national and got no response. The official word is that I was not prevented for holding leadership positions, removed as a district trainer, and prevented from completing my ticket because I’m not Christian. I was removed because I refused to adhere to the principals taught at Wood Badge.

 

Basically, I didn’t wear the hat unless forced because in my religion your head is sacred and should not be covered. Then, by asking for religious accommodations I wasn’t following the patrol method because everyone in the patrol has to do the same thing, so I can’t go off on my own at any point for any reason AND I had to participate in all the Christian Religious ceremonies.

Khaliela, The council big-wigs are probably afraid that, as a Druid, you are too in tune with nature and the out-of-doors to properly advocate the national BSA direction of... soccer!

 

How can they push for diversity in their tickets, and EXCLUDE you? Golly gee willy crackers...

[King Ding Dong]

Scouter99:

I wrote two letters to national and got no response. The official word is that I was not prevented for holding leadership positions, removed as a district trainer, and prevented from completing my ticket because I’m not Christian. I was removed because I refused to adhere to the principals taught at Wood Badge.

 

Basically, I didn’t wear the hat unless forced because in my religion your head is sacred and should not be covered. Then, by asking for religious accommodations I wasn’t following the patrol method because everyone in the patrol has to do the same thing, so I can’t go off on my own at any point for any reason AND I had to participate in all the Christian Religious ceremonies.

Curious , what is a modern day Druid? Wikipedia doesn't seem to say much about it. No need for a long post, can you point me to a primer?

[Rick_in_CA]

Scouter99:

I wrote two letters to national and got no response. The official word is that I was not prevented for holding leadership positions, removed as a district trainer, and prevented from completing my ticket because I’m not Christian. I was removed because I refused to adhere to the principals taught at Wood Badge.

 

Basically, I didn’t wear the hat unless forced because in my religion your head is sacred and should not be covered. Then, by asking for religious accommodations I wasn’t following the patrol method because everyone in the patrol has to do the same thing, so I can’t go off on my own at any point for any reason AND I had to participate in all the Christian Religious ceremonies.

KDD - I don't know anything about Khaliela's specific beliefs, but a good general start is probably:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Druidism

[King Ding Dong]

Scouter99:

I wrote two letters to national and got no response. The official word is that I was not prevented for holding leadership positions, removed as a district trainer, and prevented from completing my ticket because I’m not Christian. I was removed because I refused to adhere to the principals taught at Wood Badge.

 

Basically, I didn’t wear the hat unless forced because in my religion your head is sacred and should not be covered. Then, by asking for religious accommodations I wasn’t following the patrol method because everyone in the patrol has to do the same thing, so I can’t go off on my own at any point for any reason AND I had to participate in all the Christian Religious ceremonies.

I vaguely remember from one of the online training courses selecting environmental stewardship or some such term as a value or goal of scouting and getting it wrong. Makes sense now, nature is just a classroom to be used to teach values.

 

There are several religions that the BSA finds acceptable that I find vile, what is described here is very benign in comparison. Christians sure can be a funny bunch in numbers.

[Khaliela]

@King Ding Dong:

 

What is a “modern†Druid? Now there is a can of worms if ever I saw one!

 

There are as many “denominations†of Pagans as there are denominations of Christians. Basically we can group Druids into three broad categories, paleopagan (Dead People and people who put in the time on archeological and anthropological research to do as the dead people did), mezzopagan (the guys who run around in the white robes) and neopagan (everyone else.)

Technically someone isn’t a Druid unless they are a priest or priestess. That would be like a Catholic saying their religion was that of a Cardinal or a Pope. A Druid is a religious leader, not a religion, but it’s the easiest answer to give when a non-pagan ask what your religion is.

 

The word Pagan has Latin origins; the Romans used it to refer to the “uncivilized†peasants, including the cis-Alpine Celts, living in rural districts that refused to trek into the temples, but preferred to worship among the fields and forests. After the Christians made it to Rome the word Pagan was transformed to include all those who practiced any of the European tribal religions, including the Grecian, Roman, and Norse pantheons.

 

Commonalities among groups:

1. When it comes to God we have a pantheon (goddesses included.)
   
2. We worship nature.
   
3. We celebrate 8 holy days.
   1. 
      
   2. The 4 Quarter days are the Solstices and Equinoxes. These are solar festivals.
      
   3. The 4 Cross-Quarter days are the mid-points between the solstices and equinoxes. These are lunar festivals (AKA fire festivals, because let’s face it, if you’re going to be outside at night you may as well have a bonfire and roast marshmallows. Besides, I’ve yet to meet a God who didn’t like burnt offerings! LOL)
      
   4. The purpose of these holy days is to celebrate the cycle of the seasons, the blessings of nature, the changes in our lives, and the wheel of the year.
      

Once you get past that we are as diverse as the many Christian groups. Incidentally, many Christians unknowingly celebrate pagan holidays in precisely the way the Pagan Gods prescribed. Imbolc in the Pagan calendar is a cross-quarter day dedicated to the goddess Brigid; the Catholics turned it into Candlemass and dedicated it to Saint Bridig (Yes, they Sainted our Goddess and built an abbey on the sight of her sacred well.) Beltane became May Day, Lugnadesh became Lammas, Oestara became Easter (didn’t even bother to change the name on that one), etcetera. The upshot is most Christians are already familiar with the pagan holy days as well as the manner of celebration, albeit slightly twisted.

 

[Khaliela]

@JoeBob: LOL!!!!

 

You're probally right there. How they can advocate for leave-no-trace and promote the ATV program is beyond me! Camp Grizzly (INWC) started the program last year and it's got local law enforcement up in arms. The kids ride right down the middle of the road and if the Forest Service Ranger or Game Warden tries to stop and ticket them they head off into the brush where law enforcement trucks can't follow. I'm a Hunters Education Instructor so I see the Game Wardens faily often, apparently the new ATV program drives them crazy.