desertrat77

Two of the four councils I've been in match Abel's observations to a "T"

Twocubdad, I like your idea of task-specific commissioners. That would work.

Concur with SP. The situation is unsat, and the camp director needs to know.

Kudos to the National Guard--job well done. Kudos to SM Robinson for his poise and rare common sense. Perhaps the experience will encourage some of the scouts to consider serving in the National Guard, or a search and rescue unit, or both.

Good discussion. There is an institutional barrier to consider. Good units are outdoors and moving fast. UCs are often perceived as "management" and thus part of the district/council perpetual meeting and training circuit, with little or no camp fire smoke on their uniform, which unit level leaders may view with healthy skepticism. Many UCs I know fulfill this perception. The key thing is to recruit UCs that can relate to the unit. It's a hurdle to do so because if a scouter is outdoor minded, he/she is inclined to continue at unit level. The first thing we should do is wipe the UC roster clean and start fresh. Most UCs are place holders any how. Everywhere there are graduated ASMs and CMs who are a little burned out, but not to the point of quitting completely. They are just the right folks to recruit as UCs. They know what a unit needs, and they will build a solid foundation for a future UC corps. They will be less inclined to say no thanks because they don't want to be associated with the current reputation of UCs, which is pretty poor (I say this as a UC myself).

I concur with BadenP, not if but when. Also concur with Moosetracker's comments about the tone of discussion. Though I am pro-coed scouting, I acknowledge there are a bunch of ways to disagree with coed scouting, but painting girls with a negative brush isn't the least bit helpful or kind.

Lisa, most camps I've been to have a shed for tents and cots, right on site...kept dry in storage, those canvas tents will last several years. A week-long static camp is a long time for me to drag myself out of a small tent each day. I liked the canvas wall tents from day 1. Configure the door and side flaps right, and the heat is manageable. Add a mosquito and you are living. Summer camp aside, I use a canvas BSA Miner's tent, circa '60s. Center pole is just tall enough for me to get dressed. Good for camporees and such.

SSScout, thanks for sharing that, I'm tracking with you completely.

I hear my old summer camp has gone the same way...the wall tents are gone and troops are bring their own tents. Times must be tight when wooden platforms, surplus cots and canvas wall tents are too costly.

For most, life is coed. The sooner boys and girls learn to work and play together, the better. I'm as traditional a scouter as can be, but I'm all for coed scouting. I think it will bring new life and energy to the program, making it better for boys and girls.

SP, you have my respect for taking this on and striving to make it better. It's tough to get scouters to RT. One approach that I saw in another council that seemed to work: less meeting "stuff" and more social time. The objectives were met, but each RT had the spirit of a monthly cracker barrell where folks visited, chatted, laughed. Naturally this took some time for them to build but they always had a good crowd.

RTs are quickly becoming outdated. Yes, the old song is true--"The more we get together...the happier we'll be!" But often it is the opposite. Announcements? Reading aloud what is already on the website is agony for the listener. Summer camp/camporee/day camp promotion? Speakers will go on and on, losing the audience. The long drawn out Q and A session afterwards is the nail in the coffin. Scout spirit rah-rah? Singing the Grand Old Duke of York...no thanks. Open discussion? Same axes, same grinding, by the same people. A turn off to newcomers. How about bringing in an outsider, someone not even associated with scouting? A local person who organizes adventure treks as a business, a forest ranger, etc. New perspective, new voices, new info. The key question is: what will entice a tired, hungry adult to come to RT after work instead of going home? PS I type the above humbly as a former RT guy who fumbled my tenure quite badly, committing all the sins I listed above.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

What's the root cause? I think folks are looking at what it takes to be a leader, and then saying "Scouting ain't worth it." It takes alot of time, energy, and money (out of your pocket oftentimes, Mr./Ms Leader) to put on even a C- program, one that fulfills the stereotype of car camping once in awhile and meeting once a week in the church basement to do the citizenship merit badges. This might appeal to some, but not many. The best units are outdoors--adventure-driven outdoors, not the local campground--and don't seem to have any problem recruiting scouts or scouters.

For many years, I was against cutting the flag into strips before burning. Then I moved, and volunteered to serve on staff at the fall camporee. One of my first tasks was "Help us cut these old flags up." As the new guy, I bit my tongue, got my pocketknife out, and started cutting. At the closing campfire, each scout was handed a piece of the flag, and as they departed, everyone walked by the dying embers and dropped their flag strip in. Coupled with the brief but eloquent words beforehand by the emcee, I found this to be the most moving flag ceremony I had seen to date. Why? Mainly because each person at the camporee was part of the ceremony, not just the flag detail. And you could tell, collectively, the ceremony hit home for all. Looking back, I recall when cutting the old flags that every one of them was torn, faded, with rusted grommets, etc...cutting them up wasn't going to harm them much more anyhow.

Traditionally, it's the scouts' choice.

If a scout goes to camp and his only outdoor experience is walking from campsite, to MB classes, to mess hall, and back, something is wrong. If a scout misses free swim, open shooting, and hanging out with his pals laughing and joking during open rec because he spends most of his week at a picnic table scribbling page after page of homework for MBs that he could have earned in town, something is wrong. Then what you have is a canvas summer school.

Eagle92, I concur...the inflated clothing drill is still useful. Upon reflection, many of my favorite memories from scouting were the result of an old scouter who added a twist to the requirements, or GASP, outright added to them. Usually he was bolstering our foundation of knowledge, and most scouts understood that. Especially something old-school, or eccentric. Passing the torch of knowledge. And making great memories.

Kudu, well said.

I did Wilderness Survival MB in '76--no chicken. But the year before I went to camporee where this was the grand event of the afternoon...one chicken per troop. SPL had to catch the chicken (they were released in a bunch, or flock, or pride, whatever grouping chickens travel in), then the entire troop ran with the SPL back to the campsite (over barb wire fence and railroad tracks), killed the chicken, cooked it, and then sent a runner to the judging station about 1 mile down the road. All timed. And points added or deducted for taste, style, and presentation of the final dish. Fortunately our SM was an old farm boy, and after his initial surprise when we showed back up to camp, he taught us exactly what we needed to do. All this nostaglia aside, I think it is a mistake for adults to decide what isn't fun, or relevant, when it comes to scouting activities. Those unusual events are sometimes the ones that stand out in the long run. The chance to show off a skill that is slowly fading into history, or being entrusted with a live chicken, etc., are profoudly more interesting than many of book-work requirements and activities the BSA touts now. By the way, I had never tasted chicken so good. The SM recommended a) skinning the chicken instead of plucking it (saved time and mess) and b) cooking it in about an inch of oil in the dutch oven. What a day!

CC, welcome! Thanks for your leadership, looking forward to your words of wisdom around the campfire!

I think there is definitely benefit from a shorter cub program. Historically, cubbing was a program to give the kids something to do while they waited for that magic day when they became boy scouts. This dynamic has changed a bit. One, the cub program has become a lengthy, art/crafts oriented program unto itself. Second, I see mixed results as far as cubs (and parents) wishing to join boy scouting. Some are ready, but few seem to be chomping at the bit to leave the safety and predictability of cubbing and move to the complexity of boy scouting (adult led v. boy led). After a lengthy break from scouting, I'm still amazed that Webelos is a two year program. Waaaay too long.

CricketEagle, As an "more than modestly" older Eagle who also took a long break from Scouting, I came back a few years ago and found myself making many of the observations you articulated. The scouting movement overall has moved away from adventure, and fun. More indoors, more homework, more rules. Indeed, it equals a dull program. The difficulty is that there are many adults who agree with the dull program and think it's swell. The scouts, now and yesteryear, are up for the challenge, responsibility, and the adventure. But the tone of the program is often dictated by the adults who don't like the outdoors, don't like to swim, don't like rugged events, and would rather listen to powerpoint presentations in the camp mess hall all day than step outside and take a five mile hike. We need more scouters with your vision and experience. It's worth the effort. Thanks for taking this on!

CricketEagle, welcome and thanks for those profound thoughts, well said.

Eamonn, I agree. Went I went thru basic training many years ago, one of our flight members was 28 years old--the old man of the bunch. He said something that has stayed with me since: "Cool is cool...if you have to a necklace, or nickname, or anything else that says you are cool, you ain't." Also, I'm very cautious of when senior ranking folks want to hold a morale boosting event under the premise of "The Airmen love this!" Research has show more often than not, the Airmen don't care, or are annoyed by the whole thing and are just being polite. It boils down to a senior-ranking person thinking what the Airmen want/need, when they may be way off track. When it comes to scouting, here is what has historically been cool: backpacking, rock climbing, shooting, boating, building fires, using axes, knives and saws, cooking your first dutch oven cobbler, sleeping under the stars, an afternoon of free time at camp, swimming in a lake, etc. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Eamonn, nice post. I agree, it would have been a wonderful moment for them to just take a sip or three. Still, a great day in history. I'll do my part and have a beverage in honor of all concerned. Hear, hear!