desertrat77

Beavah, I know this isn't a literature thread...but regardless of the author's intent, kids can and have run amok ala Lord of the Flies. Maybe not to the extreme of the book, but run amok nonetheless.

Less homework, lectures, and sitting around meeting rooms. More outdoors. Advancement will still happen, but as mentioned by Basement and others, it will be a personal commitment and not a lockstep/death march induced by leaders and parents (much to the bane of bean counters and stats inflaters around the BSA whose mantra is "quantity over quality!") I predict uniforms will still exist but will reflect the culture of the troop. Some old school throwbacks, some relaxed with tees and jeans, some strict/by the book, etc In most cases it will not be Lord of the Flies. When I

Sablanck, Good question. An option I've always liked: Skip the red vest, and put them on a vest of your choosing. I recall an elderly scouter, back when I was a scout in the '70s, who had patches going back to the '30s sewn on a very nice leather vest (a light color, not sure exactly what kind of leather). Looked very stylish and folks flocked to him for stories and questions. Or folks used to sew their patches to a red wool scout jacket--every possible spot covered. Others would get a civilian windbreaker and sew away. However, in my travels, I haven't seen these options u

RRascal, thanks for the great essay on Camp Geronimo, brought back good memories. I camped there as a kid once in the '70s (out of council) and returned a couple times as a scouter in the '80s. Glad to hear the camp is doing well. Biggest change was the dining hall. In the '70s all meals were cooked in the campsite. Our challenge: we were there the last week of camp for that summer and firewood was tough to come by. Walked a long ways to find anything, good exercise!

I think those new Canadian uniforms are superb! Very clean and functional looking. Wish the BSA would go the same route. I do not like the BSA's penchant for clutter--doo dads, gizmos, etc. Nor for the over-engineered, potatoe sack styling. Folks look nerdy and needy (ego boost), not to mention the added costs. Nice and pretty (showing ones' plummage) for meetings, training sessions, and conferences, but utterly useless in the outdoors.

True, it's got to be a good quality program. Key point: outdoor adventure is the BSA's best selling point. Hands down, it transcends generations, fadish programming, the personal hobby horses and bias of leadership, etc. Everything else--uniforming, soccer, homework/academics, earning doo dads--can be delivered by organizations other than the BSA, oftentimes better than the BSA. If the BSA were an auto dealer, outdoor adventure would be its best selling car. All too often, though, it is tucked in the darkest part of the lot. Even the best salesmen needs a reminder of t

Barry, very interesting, a few thoughts if you please: - "The program is the program"--perhaps in town, at the troop meeting, but I respectfully submit the draw of summer camp (for me, as a scout in the '70s, and the ideal I encouraged as a scouter in the '80s) was that the scout charted his own program at camp. Pursued the badges he wished, went to open swim every day, etc. As long as no rules were broken and the mandatory formations attended (meals, reveille, retreat, taps),fellow scouts could roam the camp at will. Were there missed opportunities for advancement? For me, yes,

raisinemright, kudos to you and your troop--not doubt this will be a summer camp that will be fondly remembered for many decades to come.

Kudu, Kudos to the young scout that refused to go thru the "first year program" aka "scouting pre-school." Because of his climbing experience, he's going to remember those knots alot longer than the poor scouts who sat on logs in the first year program area, tying knots just for the sake of the checklist. I'm sure his camp experience was more enriching overall. Seems that's how we picked up scouting skills back in the day--doing practical things, out in the field? What troubles me is that more scouts, BSA-wide, would have liked to have skipped the first year prog

Eamonn, I'm all for "do your best" at unit level...many units are doing just that. But they are bucking the tide, oftentimes....National and district level scouters have the responsibility for the strategic message of "do your best," along with targeting the right folks to serve as leaders. Bird of a feather do indeed flock together. Sedentary, earn-it-all-quick power point scouters will tend to recruit same. This will result in a diluted "do your best" message when it comes to recruiting scouts and scouters who desire adventure and high standards. The troop that has high sta

Skeptic, that's cool stuff, doing the mile swim at 65...I hope I can do the same at when/if I reach that milestone. I think it sets a good example for the scouts to see their leaders swimming, boating, hiking......

E, good thoughts. Personally, I never use the phrase "dumb scouts" because it just ain't true, or polite. The scouts are capable of amazing feats of learning and accomplishment, given the opportunity. I believe in tailoring the program to help scouts with varying learning levels to still achieve high standards. I don't consider this dumbing down, just good instructing. However, I have used "dumbed down" to describe programming that is sub-par and not worthy of the scouts' time or intellect, and rewards low levels of achievement. In this case, the "dumb" label is directed at t

Depends on where you live..... Where I'm now, there are about a dozen camps close by. Other places, very few and they are long drives for most of the troops.

Abel, you have my respect for your well-reasoned position. I've been there myself when I was a unit leader. The loyalty and tradition of the council camp is something that many scouters take seriously. But that relationship is a two-way street. The council must do their part too. I can see sticking with the council camp thru a few rough years, but at the end of the day, we have a responsibility to the scouts and their parents to provide best program and value for their dollar. When any organization, be it profit or non-profit, decides to start providing second best, and t

While WS theory has obviously changed, I again submit it should not be called "Wilderness" or "Survival." Not sure what to call it ("Make Yourself Comfy and Wait for the SAR Team, They'll Be Here in a Jiffy MB" is kinda clunky) but we are giving the scouts a false sense of competence when we sign them off for the MB as it is currently formatted. And let's put the blame for the unfortunate incidents of the past on the right shoulders: it was not the fault of the scout, nor the survival literature, when he got poisoned--it was a failure of leadership to provide the proper oversight and i

Tahawk, thanks for the background. Mulling it over, I guess today's prevailing thought is that you'll be rescued pretty quick, so don't bother the flora or fauna, or learn any heavy-duty survival skills. In the past, the philosophy was "You don't know when you'll be rescued, if ever, so if you want to live, you'll be wise to develop as many skills as possible." Along those lines, I recall an entire chapter on survival in my scout Fieldbook, circa '73, including some very deep discussion on morale while surviving, including spiritual matters. Sign of the times.....

Wow, Tahawk, you are correct, I barely recognize the MB now (earned mine in '76)! Seems there are lots of activity-free loopholes (describe, explain, etc.) Not much Wilderness, nor Survival, in these new requirements. Perhaps the MB should be renamed..... PS This requirement jumped out: 12. Explain why it usually is not wise to eat edible wild plants or wildlife in a wilderness survival situation. Had to re-read that several times...why is it unwise to eat edible plants or wildlife? It is better to eat inedible? Or is LNT so entrenched in our thinking that it's be

Callooh, If there was an award for hair splitting, I'm thinking you just earned it with your last post..... I think E's position is clear......

Packsaddle, got a chuckle from your comment.... I don't have fond memories about scouting as presented in my first scout handbook, 1974...even as a Tenderfoot, I thought it was pretty light on outdoors stuff. Then I read a couple prior editions and that confirmed it. Next edition, the Green Bar Bill revival, yes, very happy days reading that one. Traditional scouting was back.

Shortridge and Packsaddle, I'm tracking with your views...I have to bite my tongue when I hear the over-the-top superlatives about the Eagle rank (once/always, marked man, etc.). I keep thinking "Are you kidding me?" Just a bunch of purple prose designed to give more rah-rah to the ceremony. The presentation of the badge speaks for itself...far more eloquent that the long screed that accompany many Eagle ceremonies today. I keep quiet about earning Eagle unless its pertinent to a conversation (shooting the breeze, or coaching). Eagle is a moment in time, and the end of the a

Quantity over quality. Trite but true.

I feel for the guy. Best to have separate bags for hunting and traveling. Same with military gear......

I'd talk with the parents first. I'd tell them politely but firmly that henceforth, their scout must choose either pot or scouting. Sharing is admirable, but sharing an illegal substance is, well, illegal. So is possessing it, and using it. Gotta admit, not too surprised regarding the scout's lack of interest in leadership positions. Also, if a patrol box is raided and food is missing, I think we know who done it.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

As long as each scout is striving to do his best to live up to the ideals of scouting, and showing progress, that's good. When a scout shows repeatedly he can't or won't abide by scouting ideals, then it's time to part ways. Scouting is not supposed to be a "one mistake" program. There are occasions, however, when it's a "one crime" program and then the scout has to go.

Swampy, welcome and thanks for all you do!