desertrat77

Though I can't explain why, this deceptively simple thread has taken some peculiar turns!

Birch bark is tops!

Seattle, Just a guess, but the resistance might be residual from the previous thread, where Eagle Scout Mom/RT Guru and Eagle Scout Son of the Century used the fuzz stick to tout their superior outdoor skills.

RR, I came from the same era...I had one of each as a scout. I think I wore the collarless more in town, and during hot weather. The collared, mostly in cold weather. If wearing a neckerchief (which was more often in town), the collarless worked best.

Kel, I love Twelve O'Clock High! Got a copy at home. However, I'd be hesitant to show the whole thing in a leadership seminar, even a formal military one. Tough to pull off without people mentally checking out. However, it sounds like the contractor that showed it at your course cracked the code on keeping participants engaged--my hat is off to them, that's quite good news.

I'm familiar with the concept, but never prepped or used one. As a scout in AZ, always managed to find dry tinder, even in wet weather. Then when we moved to AK, was pleased to find that birch bark worked wonders, even in the deepest cold or dreariest rain.

As a non-WBer, I won't attempt to explain WB, but I would like to make a comment. If this is not appropriate, I'll take my beating. Seems to me T2Eagle is asking why WB does A and B. The upshot is that A and B don't seem have much value added, and if someone is going commit to WB, they'd like to have the course be the mountain top experience it is promised to be. Here's the vibe of explanations, so far: yes, sorry about the blue/gold, that was weird, but overall, the course is the course, deal with it, etc. Rationalize it any way you want, but watching a movie in the camp mess on Sunday evening ain't leadership training. It might be a good movie, with some insights that can be shared over a cup of coffee. But if you are selling a top of the line experience, movie-watching isn't even in the ball park. As a career military guy, any time a briefer has movie clip (or, heaven forbid, an entire movie) as part of his brief, I groan inwardly...because usually it's just a waste of time. Get to the point already. One of the lamest, overused techniques around. It's passive. To sum up, I think this discussion serves as a good example of why we have the "spirited" WB discussions now and again. Two different points of view of what is "value added." PS I didn't get to attend Brownsea back in the day, but the folks that did always raved about it. It was the real deal. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Mr. B, I'm with you! Collarless shirt with an old-school, full size neckerchief...that's a uniform! In my closet I have a brand new early '70s shirt, with no collar. If I can ever find the matching era pants or shorts, you can bet I'll wear it!

I understand Basement, your post really struck a cord. You mention the moving target...my previous district needed trainers. No problem! I'm military, and worked with a unit level scout leader who was looking for a new challenge. To sweeten the deal, this particular leader taught skills courses to deployers, he was great with people, comfortable in the outdoors, and off duty was a superb scout leader. How can you go wrong? I contacted the district. Nothing was heard for a couple weeks. Tried again. Nothing. Tried again. Nada. Long story short, after several months, I finally gave up and so did the volunteer. Could never get a soul on the training staff to so much as return an email or a phone call. Looking back, this district was a tough nut to crack on any front. Very frosty. They may have needed trainers, but they didn't want anything to do with my comrade. He would not have fit in all, which is a shame.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

I concur with Mr. B...as a scout, I saw adults that I respected wear their Eagle medal on special occasions. Motivated me to keep moving down the trail. Each Eagle can decide what is best for him--freedom of choice is a good thing.

Basement, that is quite a RT experience! I can't top that or come close, but I sure can relate to the general vibe of loutish, patronizing behavior towards newcomers. Looking back on my last three districts, in three different regions of the US.... There are always a few salt-of-the-earth folks that embody the scout spirit and welcome you on board and show you the ropes. However, more than a few old timers a) are overly impressed with themselves and the state of scouting in the district b) will openly scowl at you if you walk up and shake their hand, c) look at your uniform and upon seeing the strange council patch and lodge flap, look at you like you came from outer space and d) gaze at you with shock if you make an occasional comment or observation...after all, what the heck do you know about scouting? It bears mentioning I am not a WBer, and in two of my previous districts, this was a show stopper for some of my fellow scouters. No beads equalled no credibility and minimal social interaction. So be it. I'm glad to report in my current district, the WBers are very reasonable, welcoming folks, and I nearly fell out of my folding chair when I heard the WB attendance pitch a few months ago. Why? It was the most down to earth, realistic, respectful WB sales pitch I'd ever heard. I was very impressed with the brief and how they outlined the local WB experience to be. One class was already full and the other nearly so. I can understand why. Previous two districts' WB pitch? Ugh. All this aside, I do not let the human dynamics dissuade me from being involved. I'll be friendly and respectful. Also, I'll move again soon, and will see what the next council and district has in store. PS Can't forget Mrs Eagle Scout Mom and her son. What a duo! So they had to show off their encyclopedic knowledge of fuzz sticks, and talk trash about fellow Eagles? Whew. They made a common mistake: just because a scout could earn Eagle in the '70s and not go camping doesn't mean it was common. In fact, I don't recall one Eagle making the rank that route. All the Eagles I knew were solid outdoor experts, with lots of time on the trail. Just because the official advancement program was watered down doesn't mean the troops followed suit. Many troop level scout leaders ensured the scouts got an old-school scouting experience, which means "get outdoors!"

Eagle92, I concur.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Crossram, in this case, I'd pick my battles and let the issue be. I don't think there is anything else constructive to be done. If he's doing it for a) ego and b) to tweak peoples' whiskers, the best thing to do is ignore the loops and not say a word about it. Every time an adult tries to correct him, he's thriving on the conflict. No need to feed it. He'll realize the right way eventually.

Eagle92, that is true...I recall one of the duties of the SPL was to organize and chair those boards.

Platy', your perspectives are great, and congratulations on your troop's success! Wish you all the very best.

Eagle92, my horseplay aside, I agree there is value in having meetings indoors...even in warm climates, it can get chilly when the sun drops below the horizon, depending on season. Then there is the safety factor, etc. The indoor stuff should strictly be a staging area for doing outdoor stuff, then to clean and store gear after. When a troop starts spending more time in the meeting room than the outdoors, trouble is ahead--conflict, declining numbers, etc. Engineer: I think if the BSA re-focused back to its time-honored and successful formula of "outdoor adventure" then it could compete quite well with sports and other clubs. As long as scouting is stereotyped (and sometimes rightfully so) as a passive, indoor, badge-earning movement, while wearing baggy overpriced uniforms, it will indeed continue to struggle against other interests. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Eagle92, I'm on board with you 100 percent, just couldn't resist!

Shortridge, well said.

Good thoughts, Platy'. I think you captured the spirit of scouting.

Reflecting aloud.... Position patches on the sleeve sufficed for decades in the BSA, to show where one worked. Then the ODL came along with the silly loops. And continued with the monstrosity we know as the Centennial Uniform. For an organization that sometimes takes great pains to not be military, it is interesting that the BSA still uses the the parade-ground-peacock approach to uniforming, specifically the loops/epaulet. Our uniforms might cost a little less if the shoulders were loop-less.

Eagle92, I'm a little surprised at your last...surely scouts can learn skills and plan things at outdoor meetings?

Shortridge, I think you hit a bullseye, spot on.

If your district has a roundtable that is worth attending, consider yourself fortunate. Been in three different councils in the last few years. Even in the districts that had a good RT, it is a long drive and another evening away from the family. Gotta admit, reading Basement's list of what won't be missed, I too am more than a little weary of the good ole boy club. Amazing how unfriendly groups can be, especially in scouting.

Basement, good point. Equally ridiculous is the fact that shoulder loops exist in the first place.

"Horse hockey. Not without adults instigatin' it or feedin' it somehow. Now many a unit committee - those look like Lord of the Flies" Beavah, my experience runs counter to your argument. It only takes one kid to terrorize his peers, recruit kids to do things they normally wouldn't do--and he can it all on his own. The kicker: he'll wait till the adults aren't around to do it. He's usually pretty good at manipulating kids and adults, lulling the latter into believing he's a good kid. Now if by instigation/feeding you mean adults condoning the behavior, or unwittingly feeding the false impressions, I can get on board with that.