desertrat77

I too scooped up some deals (five bucks?) on the close out oscar de larenta shirts! Long sleeves, quite a bargain. Though I was not a fan of ODL in years past, it's amazing how my outlook changed when I first saw that baggy, over-engineered thing called the Centennial uniform. Perspective! I understand the need for professionals to have a sharp uniform to wear to conferences, fundraisers, luncheons, banquets, and such. I wish they would put some thought also into a simple, rugged, reasonably priced uniform to wear in the outdoors.

I see Basement's side...I've lived it. As for the theory that his alleged "attitude" is keeping the district folks away, I disagree with that on a number of levels. First is the assumption that he has a bad attitude in first place. I disagree--I think he's a realist. I think Basement's stance is spot on, and he's got a legit beef. Second is the assumption that any kind of disagreement is just awful and results in negative vibes. Maybe. In this case? Nope. Basement seems to be viewing things as they actually are but he's not letting it keep him from providing a good program for the scouts. Third is the assumption that we all need to hold hands ala scout vespers and just get along. A worthy goal to strive for, but it takes all parties concerned to make that a real working partnership. If the DE isn't willing to meet Basement in the middle, I recommend letting the matter be. A fake peace just for the sake of peace isn't worth the trouble. Fourth is the assumption that Basement really needs to comprehend and respect all that his DE, or any DE, is going thru. I think that is backwards. Unit level leaders are the pinnacle of scout leadership in my book. Every other adult works for them. Fifth is the assumption that Basement is the one that needs to offer the peace pipe. Disagree 100 percent. Sixth is the assumption that there is a need for the DE and Basement to be pals. It would be nice, but I don't think it's necessary. Relations may be strained, but Basement is keeping it from the scouts. Real scouting happens quite often with and without district help.

I can identify with Basement's sentiments--as an ASM, then SM (in the '80s) I was in a council like his. The council folks (and district) from that time could be summed up thusly: smug, condescending, out of touch, strong sense of entitlement--all conveyed to us unit level folks in a very clear manner. So when it was money raising time--the early years of popcorn, and whatever we were calling the predecessor to FOS--it was easy to say "no thanks." This happens when council and district think that the units work for them. Sorry, doesn't work that way. We all might be on equal ground in the great family of scouting, but when it comes to who is supported, and who supports? National, council and district work for the unit--the troop, pack, crew, ship are paramount. The folks that wear gold shoulder loops that understand that do well.

Doc, some of those attitudes towards exec staff are well deserved.... I too have been in a council, years past, that had poor service to the units, summer camp falling part, and the council's top concern was moving into their new office suites, conscending attitudes by council/district folks towards the unit folks.... If the council has a poor image, it's up to the council to solve that--by service to the unit, not by a sense of entitlement. I've also been in a very poor council, I'm talking church-mice poor...they didn't offer much to the units, but there was genuine respect and concern from council to the units, and the units knew it and appreciated it.

SP, Our district is the only one thus far in the council to forgo family solicitation (large council too). The FOS folks at district (starting last year) began reaching out to organizations such a veteran's groups, businesses, etc., with a simple campaign of letter writing and some personal appearances. Straightforward approach: Scouting is beneficial to the community, here's what scouting costs, we'd appreciate X amount donation, but any amount would be great. Last year, the FOS goal was met (a sizeable one too), and district is on track for this year. I was immediately struck by the honesty, and the good old fashioned common sense of actually going where the money might be. Times are tough around the country, but my district has been hit quite hard by unemployment, foreclosures--one of the hardest hit in the state. I really tip my hat to scouters who came up with this plan. It works. And no one faces the challenge of asking money from families who are just barely getting by. The families aren't put in the position of having to hear the pitch and struggle with where the money might come from.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Eagle92, I agree 100 percent. Salesmanship is the key--folks can pick up on a bad sales pitch in an instant. And will say "no thanks" more often than not because of it. Honesty and respect are paramount. The council folks that forget that have a tough road.

I agree with Adam S's position. Rekindling the scouting spirit in alumni should be the primary aim. I think BadenP's assessment is spot on.

Our district raises FOS dollars through soliciting local businesses and such. No sales pitches to units. Times are tough every where, but this county has been hit really hard. Good news though--this approach works great--FOS goal met! I heard the council FOS pitch at the roundtable. Moreso than my previous councils, this council is honest and respectful. Other places, council/district folks make pitches that have the underlying attitude of "you unit level folks owe us." Folks don't reward poor or invisible service, be it a service department at a car dealership, or a restaurant, or a scout council. And if you think your council is getting a bad rap, it's up the the council to solve that image problem, not the volunteers at unit level.

ch33rful, Thanks for the very thoughtful and frank post. Sometimes the principles scouting take root right away, other times, years down the road. I say this from personal experience. You were a full fledged member of the scouting family the minute you signed up. Your contributions to scouting are far more important than any medal, bead, or knot. Speaking as an Eagle, I think the prestige of that rank has been inflated over the years. Eagle scouts represent the same spectrum of any population, from overachievers, to average joes, to guys who just make you wonder. However, the accomplishment represents but one chapter in life. So if there are a room full of Eagles, I don't see what would make them superior to anyone else. Earning Eagle 5, 10, 20, 40 years ago doesn't not automatically earn a lifetime of adoration. The scout oath and law in action--to me, that determines who is hitting the mark (or not) as a scouter. Some of the finest scouters I've worked with are former Life, Star, First Class scouts. It's not the doo-dads on the uniform, but the character of the wearer that counts. The newest Tenderfoot scout, the most seasoned scoutmaster, the scout who earned every merit badge, the former Second Class scout now serving as a den leader, the mom serving as cub master, the CSE in Dallas--all stand on equal ground. Best wishes! Desertrat77(This message has been edited by desertrat77)(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Each Eagle and their family should decide. However, the "coronation" style ceremony seems to dominate today, with lots of mummery. If the Eagle wants that, okay. Personally I much prefer the simple ceremonies, especially tied to a "normal" COH. But to each their own.

Excellent news, thanks Pchadbo! I love shooting too--got the bug many years ago at scout camp.

SP, that's what made that movie so good...Bogart was brilliant, and characters like that exist! We better tuck in our shirts while we're on the topic.....

RememberSchiff, Good catch, thanks for the chuckle! Cheers, Desertrat77(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

To put it another way: There are a variety of methods to teach scouts how to put up a tent. But when a particular method a) becomes "the law/the best thing since sliced bread/all the really smart people use this", b) has to be learned in detail before implementation and c) becomes more important than putting up the doggone tent, that's when I object. Any time scouts are sitting on a log, bored, with their head in their hands, listening to a lecture on how to give a lecture, true scouting has been put on "pause."

I concur with Baden P. All scouts benefit from outdoor adventure, which used to be the BSA's main selling point. Many nerdy guys have indeed worked their way thru the ranks and become Eagles, astronauts, etc. But they didn't gain the lion's share of their scientific achievement, or knowledge, from the BSA. They either got a taste of it through a MB and desired more, or their school work qualified them for the MB. Those astronauts from yesteryear didn't hang around the lab or the math classroom excusively during scout time. That was done in junior high, high school, or college. The BSA focus was on the outdoors. I knew some very nerdy, bright but really awkward kids growing up. Mixing with other kids and getting outdoors broadened their horizons, I think.

A lesson I learned from a much respected squadron commander from many years ago: "When you punish, you have to balance the needs of the individual with needs of the organization...punish too harsh, and you've harmed the individual...punish too light, and you've harmed the organization." In a case like this, we have to ask: do we carpet bomb (punish all) or precision bomb (seek and punish the wrong doers)? This story hit close to home.... Summer camp, '70s. We cooked all our meals in camp with gear the camp issued us. Several patrols, lots of gear. It's the last full day...we pre-inventory our gear and missing is a metal measuring cup, probably a 30 cent value. The SM comes unglued. We are thieves, careless too...much lecturing...and we are restricted to camp. Tents and personal gear are shook down, and re-shook down. A PL offers to pay for the cup out of his pocket. No dice, it's the original cup or nothing. Then we sit in silence in camp, and miss dinner (cooked by staff elsewhere). Still sitting in silence as the sun set. Then we miss the closing camp ceremonies and fire, where the individual and patrol awards were to be handed out. Including a special presentation planned for a buddy of mine who did three mile swims that week. No one attends. We go to bed. Did the SM make his point? Yes. Was the cup recovered? No. The legacy of that SM? You can guess! (That was his MO, established long before the Case of the Missing Cup.) For the case at hand, I think punishment was administered too early. I'm a law and order guy, but to PT everybody and recite the scout law before we know who dun it? Seems a bit much. But I say that with humbleness, because when I was an ASM and SM, I made some poor decisions when it came to crime and punishment. Sometimes I punished when a word to the wise would have been appropriate.

Coming home...be it a year or a day's absence, good to be with family. Cooking on the grill, in the back yard, right after mowing...a good beverage in the canteen cup, and some old country music on the AM radio. Sleeping under the stars. (Close second: sleeping in a canvas tent.) That first cup of coffee on the morning of a campout. Campfire scent on a crisp clear night--especially juniper. Seeing scouts thrive in the outdoors, same as the scouts of yesteryear--hiking, cooking, camping, boating, and other scoutcraft.

EDGE, Hersey Blanchard, et al-- Concepts borrowed from the past, mashed together unnaturally at times, with fancy packaging, presented with great earnestness as something new. All attempts to harness dynamic human endeavor, and reduce it to a process, or easily digestable powerpoint slides, will guarantee its death.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

My experience as a parent of daughters, and as a past brownie leader and unit level BSA leader: the vast majority of boy and girl scouts get along fine on coed events. Life is coed. I've heard the reasons against going coed, and respectfully disagree with each. We are only delaying the development of social skills by being gender separate. Eagle92, my daughter will meet that new 13 year old/finish 8th grade clause and is thrilled!

John, I have similar memories of my scout OA days...though my era was the '70s, there was a ratio, not sure if it was as limiting as yours, but the number of scouts/scouters inducted was still small. Tap out and ordeal were much different than today! The sum effective was "whew, glad I made it!" We were given a few moments to bask, and then "cheerful service time, get over yourself" was the focus. Regarding the discussion about the scouts liking/disliking Indian garb/ceremonies: I think this is a big "it depends." If the ceremonial team is sloppy--poor memorization of lines and delivery, cheesy attempts at building regalia--then yes, I've seen this backfire. If it's all squared away, top notch--that's a draw. There's only one was to go with ceremonial teams--first class or no class.

All great advice. I visit when it's good for them. Social but low key, positive on what is positive, refrain from criticism, and let it be known that I work for them. And Qwazse, spot on advice regarding that invite to an outdoor event! A big honor. Moreso than attending any meeting, the hike, camporee, summer camp, pack meeting by the lake--you bond more with the unit outdoors than anywhere else. Help wash the dishes, chop wood, use a handy scoutcraft skill to set up camp that they've never seen before--credibility builds. Then that cup of coffee with the SM at the fire pit early in the morning or after taps is really meaningful. I don't upstage the SM/CM. He/she is the lead adult. Truth is, they will probably view a new UC as another silver loop dandy. Another well-earned reputation, but one that's not impossible to overcome. The best tip I can think of? Show your genuine interest in unit level scouting. If you can, share common experiences as a scout or unit level scouter. True scouting doesn't take place in the meeting room. It occurs in the great outdoors.

Acco, while you obviously take a balanced approach to uniforming, please don't include yourself with the aforementioned zealots. Proper uniforming is a spectrum, not an either/or issue. To approach it from the stand point of all/nothing, do it 100 percent or you are a scofflaw, that's the rub. While the military is all volunteer, that's where the similarities with the BSA end, as far as uniforming. Military uniforming isn't a goal, a method, a desired outcome, whathaveyou. It's mandatory. Even then, there is a time and place for good judgment.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

"Beknotted weather balloons" Beavah makes a great point. Many scouters are dressed in complete uniform, with everything in accordance with prescribing directives. However, the scouters may often be unfit. Not a very good impression for an organization that still promotes "physically strong." Yes, I know life happens, and I know how hard I've got to work in stay in shape. But still..... Brent, the boys sure like those switchbacks, they surely do. Perhaps it's because a) they don't look like nerdy boy scout pants, and b) they are functional. If we can work on a uniform shirt that meets those two criteria, we'll be cooking with gas!

No doubt those things motivate and inspire. But how many lodges have hard working crews as you've described? I don't think it's that common. I realize I'm treading on sacred ground. I'm getting ready to join my fourth lodge as an adult (military moves). The previous three were inert--conclave now and again, good food, sleep indoors, sell patches, help open and close summer camp. At best.

Ceremony 9, the Picture Ceremony, is rather odd.