desertrat77

Shortridge, good points all. Regarding how tough it will be to recruit scouts at large for work crews: that is quite true, and that's another rub: service/duty to others is often lacking at the troop level as well.

SR540: touch! Sublime reply, thanks for the chuckle.

Seattle, good thoughts on referring the girls to GSA, but they may already know what they are missing. I've got a daughter at home who has been a girl scout, and after seeing what the BSA does, regularly and articulately states how much the GSA stinks, the superiority of the BSA program, and is not happy about the injustice of not being able to join the BSA. She's anxiously awaiting the day she's old enough for Venturing.

Nolesrule, though I question OA's relevancy, I am not pulling for its demise. But its sure heading that way, all on its own. As you and others pointed out, there are OA projects that are superb, and right in line with OA ideals. But do we really need all the overhead of OA, just to have traditional work crews? Do work crews need elections, ceremonies, sashes, patches, officers, advisors, and such? A good lodge can be a can indeed be a music club, etc. But how much of this is value added to scouting in general? How much time and energy is expended on insular OA activity that could be utilized at the troop, pack, crew or ship? OA, as originally envisioned, can be a great way to recognize stellar outdoor scouts, keep them engaged and instill deeper commitments to cheerful service. We've strayed from that quite a bit over time.

SR540, I can verify that uniform police are real. Four councils I've been in as an adult, and the UP are not mythical creatures. We have a few right here in our little internet family. A kind word-to-the-wise, private, helpful hint in the hallway isn't necessarily uniforming policing. But it can be if handled with the standard attitudinal hallmarks of uniform policing: smugness, nit picking, condescending, holier than thou, "hey you--caught ya!" and limited passion about more vital topics. And I've seen it done in public too. To borrow from Beavah's much more eloquent thoughts on the matter, it's an issue of basic courtesy. Who the heck thinks they have the right to walk up to another scout or scouter and belittle them about a uniform? These people exist, and they get a kick out of it. This is a volunteer org. And I don't care what color the shoulder loops might be, or how long or short someone may have served, EVERY scouter is a peer, an equal, in the service of scouting, from CSE to the newest Tiger cub leader. Anyone vaunting their tenure, training, or uniform knowledge over another is a foul. Common sense should prevail. And freedom of personal expression.

DLister, while the OA provides a valuable service to camps, I think councils could have work weekends that reach out to all scouts--a larger pool than OA. For the High Adventure places, the work crews could be formed the same way.

Eagle707, thanks, that's something to mull over. To borrow from another uniform thread: there was a time in scouting when full uniforms were the norm, and the only guidance most scouts and parents had was the scout handbook...very basic stuff. And the example set by leaders. Uniform police? I never saw any until I was an adult scouter in the '80s. Some folks, particularly older scouters, had some very eccentric touches to uniforming, but no one said anything--I think we saw it an individual flair, or their right as an old timer. Here's the irony: the more rules there are, the less any are followed. That's the status quo as I see it. There are basic principles that should be followed--but there is a line where it's just nit picking and overkill and food/drink for uniform police. I put the prohibition against mentor pins in the latter category. Every one knows if something is really out of whack--like sewing your OA flap on the wrong side. But a mentor pin? Good grief, only a few souls know what the IG says, and even fewer care. The key question is "will it bring discredit?" If the answer is no, they I say do it. I don't view the BSA insignia guide as holy writ. The key word is "guide." So where is the line? Who decides? You and me and any other adult who volunteers their time to the BSA. We are all quite capable of knowing what's important and what's not. I'm also a big proponent of freedom.

Interesting but really--does it matter? How relevant is OA today? If OA disappeared right now, what would be the impact to the BSA? Most lodges are inward-focused, patch-selling machines, and self congratulatory. The idea of cheerful service is an afterthought. The move to "honor society" is honest. By dropping the "camping" part, they at least reflect the fact that most lodge overnights are in the camp mess hall. I'm proud of my OA experiences, but I've seen OA slowly decline in influence over the last three decades.

Lisa, good point but I think there are many boys that would still like to show off that new star or life rank patch, even if they won't admit it. Clemlaw, your post really hit home. My cub and boy scout experiences ran the entire '70s, and I recall no uniform police, as we know them today. Yet most kids were properly uniformed. The leaders dressed the part and the kids mostly complied. Kids that had no uniform were not treated harshly--they were part of the club, for pete's sake. They were more than likely from poor families, and it wasn't nice to make them feel bad. The uniform police really started ramping up in the '80s, when I was an ASM. There were certain folks that just seemed to enjoy walking around meetings, pointing out petty issues, quoting the uniform guide. (Funny how you rarely saw them camping?????) Solution: 1. Rescind the current uniform guide. Publish a new one that is no longer than 5 pages, and written by a team of senior scouts and unit level leaders from various parts of the BSA. Cease offering the limited edition leatherbound copies to the uniform police. 2. Design a uniform that people want to wear, and is affordable. Get a team of parents, scouts and unit level leaders to figure it out. Scouters who spend more time in meetings than in the field need not apply. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Skeptic, not sure about Kinney's final rank, but I fully agree that Eagle is not the end all/be all of the scouting experience. I've served with numerous folks in scouting and at work that stopped anywhere between Tenderfoot and Life, and they embody scouting ideals just as much as any Eagle. My daughter really likes Kinney's books--thanks for sharing this info, it's good news.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

My first day hike as a boy scout after crossing over from Webelos: In the jungle, Panama Canal Zone. Every scout had his own machete. No adults. The SPL (a Star scout if memory serves) was in charge. We were gone all day. Deep in the jungle. The SPL taught us alot. The kicker: every scout behaved himself. No horseplay with the machetes. No one go hurt. Learned a heck of alot about the jungle, but even more so about leadership. Trust encourages scouts to be mature. As for the topic at hand, I haven't used a machete in years. But I will always value the experience.

A '50s throwback uniform--same material, color and cut as the original. BSA green and Explorer dark green. Simple and wore like iron.

Eagle92, your post made my day, thanks!

BDPT, while uniforming is a method, it does not automatically justify blindly following a non-binding administrative pamphlet "just because it says so and that's that." As for your example, if someone wanted to wear four pins on each collar, so be it. Won't get any grief from me. Silly looking? Perhaps. Out of reg? Yep...and so what. In the eyes of the beholder. It's a free country, and this is a volunteer org. Again, common sense is the key. Proper uniforming does not happen by thumping people over the head with the regulation. In my experience, the opposite happens. Nit picking begits resentment, and resentment leads to subtle or flagrant violations, and generally lends itself to less credibility for leaders and followers. One sets the example and appeals to followers sense of unity and pride. And their sense of professionalism. The "big boy/big girl" factor. This, in my military and BSA experience, is how you gain longer-lasting, higher levels of excellent uniforming. I think some of the above applies to BSA as well. We are sweating wearing an Eagle Mentor Pin, meanwhile, uniforming across the BSA is at an all time low. Why? Not because of the "illegally" worn Mentor Pin. Because a) scouts and scouters have little pride in the uniform as it is currently designed and b) there are too many unenforceable, annoying rules that tell you how to wear it. I stand by my position. I've got the results to prove it.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

USFire, glad things are working out...best wishes!

Seattle, your comment about axes staying in the axe yard brought back a memory, and a chuckle: Summer camp, late '70s...our troop is on the verge of folding because of a big fallout with the adult leadership. So we fold into the sister troop nearby to go to camp. Big mistake! Their SM is a tyrant, through and through. Drives everyone nuts. Mid way thru the week, I'm leaning on the axe yard fence, watching a buddy chop wood and shooting the breeze when he rests. Then I see my PL, face red as a beet, walking at a high rate of speed, comes into the axe yard uninvited...he had just left a meeting with the SM, which had not gone well..... Without saying a word, he tears his PL patch off his sleeve, throws the patch on the ground. Then grabs the axe out of my buddy's hand, and with incredible accuracy, starts chopping at the PL patch on the ground, accompanied by some words that aren't found in the scout handbook. Eventually he runs out of steam, and the PL patch is no where to be found. He hads the axe back and walks away. Even then, we scouts didn't view this as a totenchip problem..... Anyhoo back to the topic. People who have unnatural fears will make rules that don't make sense. Snakes, sheath knives, fireworks, patrols camping without adult leadership, you name it, they will err on the side of caution (to placate their fears). Thus the slow erosion of scoutcraft. Joe Bob, I earned the Paul Bunyan back in the old days too. And I agree, that double bitted axe and giant saw have a place in scouting! While we don't use them every day, it's the adventure of using them, a tie to our American heritage....same reason why scouts love black powder rifles and hammering a horseshoe on an anvil...scouts love that stuff!(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

As a proponent of wearing the pin on the uniform, and being a career military guy (25+ AF), I'll tackle this one. To keep a potential screed to minimum, I'm all for proper uniforming. I've proudly worn my military uniform for many years now. And privately, I disagree with some of the rules, but I've got to set the example. So I do, without grousing (except amongst a few close friends). However, BSA uniforming is not now, nor will it ever be, on par with the requirements of military uniforming. The scout uniform is bought and worn by volunteers. The uniform guide is an administrative pamphlet written by well meaning people in Dallas TX. From my research, violations of BSA uniforming policy are not punishable. So, to those who say "what rules do you pick to violate" and "it's a slippery slope" here is my response: use common sense. Does the violation bring discredit upon the BSA? If so, don't do it. If not, it's administrative violation and who gives a flip. I sure don't. In closing, a few thoughts about "uniform police." I have found that uniform zealots, both military and BSA, tend to lose sight of what the uniform is actually designed to achieve. The uniform is a means to an end, not the end. I have no problem with the strictness of military uniforming. But off duty, in a volunteer organization like the BSA, if a scouter wants to wear a little gold pin on their pocket flap, they should do it. It brings credit, not discredit, to all involved--the Eagle who gave it, the scouter him/herself, and all who see it. It only chaffes some uniforming committee people in Dallas, and a few uniform policemen. I've been associated with scouting since the early seventies, and I've never seen uniform nit picking like I have in the last couple years. Ironic that scout uniforming overall is the worst I've seen. I see this as an indictment of uniform police, not validation of their methods. When one appeals to the wearers' sense of pride and teamwork, proper uniforming is a snap.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Art, I hear what you are saying. However, the three scouts have stepped beyond the arena of their home troop and are now serving in highly visible leadership positions. As such, they have to meet the standards. I'm all for wide latitude in troop autonomy, but once a scout or scouter steps up to district, council, or OA leadership role, they gotta look and act the part of BSA spokesmen.

As a UC, I'm not looking forward to selling this program to my units. At the end of the day, it's another "program"--meaning paperwork, committee work, and meetings, dreamed up by a team of MBAs. Unit level leaders already have enough of this. I think something a little more dynamic would be helpful. Seems like a rehash of Total Quality Management, where, truly, the journey (tedium) never ended.

Eagle92, Now that I think it, I think the answer is both vintage and current! Amazing how relevant some of these old items still are.

Love the surplus places! In addition to mil stuff, they often carry cut-rate civilian gear too. As a scout in the '70s, found many bargains at army surplus that helped with my family's budget. Still have a few of those items, like a pair of civilian made big leather mittens that I used as a scout in AK...with a pair of wool inserts, I can honest say my hands never got cold. Also have a 1945 entrenching tool that has seen much abuse over the years, and still works great today. From other sources, also thinking of surplus wool pants (though long gone, they were great for winter camping)...and my 1951 canteen cup...VN era M16 ammo pouch that I converted into a survival kit as a senior scout, etc. These surplus items were designed tough, to be "GI proof" which almost makes them "scout proof"...almost!

Please wear it with pride, on your uniform. As stated above, left pocket flap is the usual place.

I'd wear the pin. Proudly.

Pie rocks!

Gunny, thanks for sharing that. I wish more councils utilized your approach.