desertrat77

Krampus, thinking back to my teenage years, I would have picked option A. Still would, even now.

Around these parts, the chapter meeting is held after the monthly district meeting (we have no RT so the district meeting night suffices as our once-a-month gathering for all concerned...very fluid, folks chatting and getting caught up on things). Our OA advisor is superb. But the Arrowmen rarely show. Between 1 and 3 per meeting. Even a full-course homemade meal, provided at last December's chapter meeting, failed to bring more than a few. Stosh described it well: they are indifferent.

Side note re camporees (looking at my two old patch vests): When I was a scout in AZ, 74 - 77, spring and fall camporees, regularly scheduled and well attended Moved to AK, 77 - 81, they had spring camporees and fall freezorees (in 77, I attended the AZ fall camporee and two weeks later we were in AK. I went to the fall freezoree right after arrival...talk about a shock to the senses, a different style of camping!) Re OA: scouts want a challenge. They want to belong to something special. They want to be proud of accomplishing something that was tough. The OA used to provide that. No more.

The OA isn't shrinking in terms of numbers. But over time, the Order has been diminished in other ways. The qualities that made the Order special in the past have been purposefully removed. When it became an honor society instead of an organization of honor campers, that's the point where it became just another patch.

Stosh, I can identify.

I concur with Krampus and Stosh. When I was an ASM/SM, I'd attend RT regularly. And rarely get anything out of it. Announcements, rehash of metrics, popcorn, the same district/council folks waxing eloquent about things that did nothing to help the unit. A bit much to take after a long day at work and no dinner. Matt, I think your approach is sound, particularly the surveys. Please keep us posted and let us know how it goes. For what it's worth, in my current district, we haven't had a RT in several years. They aren't missed. But I'm sure there would be benefit from getting together regularly.

I finished both in about an hour last December, while watching a football game. Easy.

Ah, I see your point. My earlier comments were from the public safety angle. I too have seen the lock-step/driven families, always pushing academics and other stuff to get their kids into a good college, that kind of thing.

Absolutely. In addition to being stationed in Okinawa, I also spent a year in Korea, and have been on temporary duty in other nationals in that region as well. In conversation, they may use the word "Oriental" to describe themselves. It seems only in America (and parts of Europe) that folks twist themselves into a knot trying to achieve a self-induced sense of PCness or social consciousness. The rest of the world is a little more comfortable in their skin.

Krampus, they may be helicoptering because they are in America We were stationed in Okinawa several years ago. Children as young as kindergarten age walked to school by themselves, several blocks distance. In the busy urban area outside Kadena Air Base, young children would stand on the curb and raise their hand, signalling their desire to cross the street. Instantly, four lanes of traffic would stop and allow the kids to cross. I noticed this applied even where there were no crosswalks. The kids always did their part: raise their hand and stand fast on the curb. Only once the traffic stopped did they proceed across the street. It was almost surreal each time I saw it. Heck, here in the US, you can't get yahoos to slow down in a posted school zone, or get off their cell phones while driving in a school zone, or stop for kids who are waiting near an approved cross walk. In public places, the Okinawan kids wandered about without parents nearby. In general, parents very much doted on their kids, but gave them free reign as well. (It should be noted that while kids are kids, the Okinawan kids were very polite, even away from mom/dad.) We always took our kids to public parks, and everyone got on famously. A very safe environment. Our youngest daughter was born on Okinawa. From day one, she had very blond hair, like corn silk. It's considered good luck to touch blond hair, and at city parks many Okinawa kids would stop by the swing set or bench or whereever and touch my daughter's hair. It seemed perfectly normal and innocent. My trip down memory lane aside, I think folks adjust their parenting strategies, depending on their locale. Based on my conversations with folks from various countries around the world, America's reputation proceeds itself sometimes, for good or ill.

Nothing wrong with a good dust-up. Chasing rabbits in a thread--I'm good with that too.

That's the truth. When I served as the co-leader for my daughter's Brownie troop, it was an interesting year. Working with the kids was great. The adults (troop and council)? Whew. Some were friendly and seemed glad I was around. The rest? Attitudes ranged from openly hostile, to resentful, to suspicious. I have thick skin, but after that year I said "never again."

Tons of stuff on the Big Auction site. Dime on the dollar, much of the time. Cheaper than buying it new.

My entire CS "career" was at Howard AFB, Panama Canal Zone, '71 - '74. Bobcat pin, Wolf and Bear ranks--fun, games, arts/crafts, and snacks. Classic cub stuff. Webelos--1 year, fast paced, lots of activities/field trips, focused on getting ready to join the base scout troop. Not much focus on badges/etc. Earn the required activity awards, get your AOL, done. Overnight camp in the jungle, on an island, C-rations for dinner (had to turn the cigarettes over the den leader). Ran around unsupervised on the beach, playing with crabs. Enjoyed every minute of that year, but could not wait to cross over. I think the current cub program is too long, resembles a forced march. I look at all the stuff that Webs I and II do now...I can see why the kids are bored. They are probably ready to do something else. Reintroducing the Lion rank: Easy for National to do. A very predictable program addition.

Tahawk, I had a chance to read an old PL handbook when I was a scout, something from the '60s or earlier. Can't remember for sure. But I know it was pure gold, and I devoured every word. Compared to the BSA literature of the time (ISP/NSP), it had alot of good stuff in it. Nonetheless, leadership was practiced by scouts, even if it wasn't mentioned much by name. As Stosh said, taking care of the scouts was key. Their safety, morale, health, welfare. Ensuring there was a constructive, challenging yet enjoyable program, be it a meeting or a hike or a backpacking trip. We learned leadership in the field. A bit of classroom might have been helpful. The old time scouters had leadership experience, and they instilled it in us as we worked together in the troop. They knew leadership first hand, as parents, working in their chosen profession, church, civic, scouting, etc. PS It didn't always work so well. Lots of lessons learned from failure. But it was that "safe environment to fail."

I think this is true, up to/including my time as a scout in the '70s. Very few scouts I knew went to Brownsea II and like courses. It was rare and considered a great privilege to attend (SM picked who went). When we were elected patrol leader or SPL, and fulfilling those responsibilities, we learned how to be leaders and managers on the job, with virtually no theory or academic foundation. (In fact, the word "leader" was not used often, unless your POR was mentioned by name, and I never heard the word "manager." But that's what we were doing--leading and managing--without knowing it. You were just getting the job done, and striving to do it well.) The scouters and senior scouts advised us. We learned by trial and error. Feedback followed, both good and bad. Frankly, I thought it worked pretty well. Maybe that's why I get impatient when I'm attending some types of leadership training. Some of it is good stuff, but much of it is just a mind-numbing dissection of lessons, buzzwords, and theories that are best learned on the job.

Spot on. We do what we can, where ever we might be.

LOL Tahawk, I'm in the same world as you. Let me put it this way. Yes, there are strategic level scouters, as indicated by their duty title and position on the org chart. Then there are scouters, at all levels, that through their attitude and actions, influence the organization. For good or ill. For example, an anti-outdoor district/council/unit level scouter, in good standing, in what is supposed to be an outdoor-oriented organization, is not operating solo. They may not have a strategic spot on the org chart, but they certainly reflect the strategic vision of the organization.

Tahawk, you mentioned the outdoor elements. But is it the same way now? They have been slowly eroded over time. Talking to recent WB grads, I don't sense they did anything on the scale of your experience. I wonder how could an outdoor organization allow that to happen to its top-line leader training? The change didn't happen overnight, but once the door was open, more "back in town" folks came in to an organization that was successful because of outdoor adventure. I may be wrong, and often am, but I think that BSA's willful partnership with the White Stag folks indicated a desire to move away from the outdoors. Proponents have had a larger and more influential voice since. You raise excellent points re the sources and motivations thereof. I take the White Stag info at face value. I'm not sure why they'd post information that put them or the BSA in a less than favorable light. The lack of BSA sources--I attribute that to inefficiency and willful omission. Indeed, GB Bill came out of retirement and wrote the wonderful 9th edition of the HB. I still recall, as a scout, getting a copy and reading it till the wee hours. It was superb! Once the '80s ended, however, we don't hear much of Bill from official BSA channels. Shameful.

"Wood Badge is not the end-all-be-all of strategic leadership training. It is about leading small groups. Indeed, version 2 (AKA "THE BEGINNING OF THE END") was very heavily about small group leadership tactics. E.g.: how to counsel a Scout. There is a little strategy training in version 3, but not much." Tahawk, my melodramatic phrasing is a bit over the top, but it's a pretty good summary of several WB sales pitches that I've heard in 4 different councils/districts in the last several years. The WB salespersons informed us that the training is the pinnacle of scout leader training. A life changing experience. All of the cool leaders attend. If you truly care about scouting, you'll attend. And when WB21 was introduced, it was sold as something so grand, so revolutionary, that grads from previous WB courses should re-attend. And in some circumstances, they had to re-attend to qualify for certain jobs. That must be some doggone good training! To clarify my original thought, the training itself isn't necessarily strategic. But attending it, finishing the ticket, wearing the beads--that is the line of demarcation between tactical and strategic level scouters. Or at least scouters that get to join strategic level conversations. That's the impression that I've received over the years. Stosh, well said.

Tahawk, Stosh, thanks for the additional discussion and insights. I have no smoking gun, no preponderance of evidence, to support my screeds. But I was a scout, '74 - '81, and lived the NSP. Several of my scout leaders were very traditional, and stayed with the program for the benefit of us scouts. These were no malcontents, but great men who shared with their perspectives with me, as an SPL. As a scouter, I've observed the shift in the BSA over the years. Here is a link that Kudu provided several years ago. http://www.whitestag.org/history/wood_badge_origins.html A few paras: "Dr. John W. Larson, Director of Boy Scout Leader Training for the National Council, worked with Béla H. Bánáthy and Bob Perin, Assistant National Director, Volunteer Training Service, to write the new Wood Badge syllabus. Shifting from teaching primarily Scoutcraft skills to leadership competencies was a paradigm shift. It required rethinking the underlying assumptions, concepts, practices, and values guiding adults were trained as Scout leaders." (italics mine) Context indicates this was circa '65. It seems to me that National was already contemplating a different approach to scouting. It may not have turned on a dime, but the shift was beginning. Another quote that will seem familiar: "Some individuals on the national staff resisted the idea of changing the focus of Wood Badge from training leaders in Scout craft to leadership skills. Among them was Bill Hillcourt, who had been the first United States Wood Badge Course Director in 1948. Although he had officially retired on August 1, 1965, his opinion was still sought after and respected. Larson later reported, "He fought us all the way... He had a vested interest in what had been and resisted every change. I just told him to settle down, everything was going to be all right." Hillcourt presented an alternative to Larson's plan to incorporate leadership into Wood Badge. Chief Scout Brunton asked Larson to look at Hilcourt's plan, and Larson reported back that it was the same stuff, just reordered and rewritten. Larson's plan for Wood Badge was approved and he moved ahead to begin testing the proposed changes." While GB Bill may have reconciled with scouting and WB toward the end of his life, it was not always smooth sailing. To my knowledge, GB Bill still has no place of honor in the National Museum at Irving. It seems to me that National cast its lot with a group of scouters that wanted a more intellectual approach v. traditional scouting. One more interesting note: "Baden-Powell also envisioned that Scouting would teach skills of the hands, the head and the heart. As Bánáthy sized up the first fifty years, he was clearly dissatisfied that Scouting had mainly succeeded in teaching hand skills." http://www.whitestag.org/history/founders/white-stag-founders.htm Did the BSA need to improve its training? Perhaps. Always room for improvement. Nonetheless, when National decided to join forces with folks like Banathy and his proponents, they were ready to remold scouting. Despite the BSA's overwhelming popularity and success over the previous 50 years, Banathy was "dissatisfied." Why? From my ragged NSP 8th edition scout handbook, Feb 73, page 10: "You'll do alot of things on camping trips. But camping is only one part of Scouting. Another is learning and trying new things back in town. There are over 100 different merit badge subjects...." (italics mine) What follows? A para on the Atomic Energy MB. Another on science. Then fingerprinting. Ah yes, "back in town." That's where they wanted to take scouting. Out of the woods. To the church basement. To listen to lectures. When they took camping MB off the Eagle required list, that sealed the deal (hence my across the board comment). The "back in town" scouters now have the dominate voice in scouting.

Welcome David! I see you proudly wearing the official BSA Red Beret--well done! I've got mine around somewhere.

Tahawk, I see your points. Two posts ago in this thread, I took a swipe at WB but made a slight qualifier that White Stag WB was not the sole reason for the decline of the BSA. Nonetheless, in my last post, I knocked WB again, outright. Please take a look the timing. Was it any accident that "old" WB died in 71 and the ill-fated NSP started in 72? I don't think so, based on reading the links that Kudu posted yesteryear. There seemed to be a concerted effort at that time by the BSA to move away from the outdoors to whatever we have now. Across the board. I concur with your observations about the other reasons that plague the BSA today--particularly the disappearance of the patrol method in scouter training, MB mills, etc. But I respectfully offer this: did these changes happen in a vacuum? Did the shift begin at the grass roots level? I rather doubt it. If WB is the end-all-be-all of strategic leadership training for the BSA, those that guided the BSA away from its heritage were either influenced by WB theory, or had a firmer hand in the shift because of their WB background. Those with the beads speak and the other bead wearers listen. The non-scouting factors you mentioned--decline in support, adult willingness to support scouting--true, hard to pin those on WB. But I'll offer this. I've been in councils and districts where WB was used as a wedge rather than an organizational rallying point. The attitude turned alot of people off. Not true everywhere (like the council I'm in now) but it's out there.

Tahawk, it seems you disagree. I'm intrigued--do share!

Stosh, I enjoyed reading your excellent post, and concur wholeheartedly with your points. I felt the need to highlight this one sentence. Indeed, many adults in scouting today aren't leaders. In fact, many of these aren't good managers either. Despite their many knots, honors, gee gaws and gimcracks. They tend to do two things: promote dull and uninspiring programming, which results in scouts walking away. And turn away or turn off adults that are/could be great scout leaders. The BSA should be a haven for can-do, outdoor-oriented, trustworthy, inspiring, adventure-minded men and women. But it's just the opposite. Those types of folks tend to stay away. The BSA in its current form truly tries the soul of any adult who wants to make a difference. It seems Kudu has been kind of scarce around here lately but I'll make a feeble attempt to impart one of his beliefs that I concur with: when White Stag WB types replaced Green Bar Bill and traditional scouting, it was the beginning of the end of alot things. Today's scouts may not know what they are missing, but they know something isn't right.