desertrat77

Stosh, sorry to hear this. The ranks are thinning, sad to say.

That's a great option as well.

I'd much rather attend the most humble council summer camp out there than any national jamboree.

A couple of larger, more generalized dynamics to consider. We have a generation or two of Americans that refuse to wear "big boy/big girl" clothes, even at the appropriate times. People don PJs to the store and school. Flip flops and tee shirts in formal situations. Small wonder the scouts don't see the big deal. Imprinting. The BSA uniform is expensive and unsightly. National: field a better uniform and scouts will wear it without complaint. (I'm not holding my breath on the latter.) In the interim, the key is for adults and senior scouts to set the example.

More rules, restrictions, boundaries = less participation. Less members. Less sharing. Over the years, I've read many things here that I completely disagreed with. And they were not always stated in a scout-like manner. But you know what? Just because someone posts something that runs contrary to my beliefs/values, they have the right to say it. Even if they say it in an unscout-like manner, heck, they said it and that's that. Am I going to be a hot-house flower and wilt? I'd like to think I'm made of strong stuff than that. In the past, I've crossed the line myself, and the other party took the higher road and simply turned the page. Thankfully. I'm not worried about scouts tuning in and reading the debates. Including the rowdy debates. Three reasons: a) even if they seek to avoid it, they are exposed to a tsunami of crap every day via social media. A scout perusing a scouter.com dust-up about Eagle Scout projects or religion is not a big deal. b) Scouts are more intelligent than we give them credit for. c) How many scouts really read this forum? A forum like this is, uh, like, for old people I too am sorry to see folks leave. And, though they may have been quite contentious, I'm sorry that some of the banned folks are no longer here. They may have stated things that got my goat, but they sure made me think. And sometimes, I learned something from them too.

Sentinel, I think it's helpful to have an IP or something similar. It gives folks a place to have a spirited debate, and for those that dislike that sort of thing, they don't have to be exposed to it. It's a lot like a troop campout. Overall it may look like a Norman Rockwell painting, but there are problems, conflict, poor decisions, etc., that arise and must be resolved. That's life. I think we can handle it. Take a look at some of the threads circa 2003 - 2005. Long threads, constant point/counterpoint. But it seemed more and more people joined the forum.

Excellent point...there is a difference between disagreement between two people and someone who is just plain disagreeable.

When I joined the forum in 2002, it seemed there were many more members than there are now. And the fights...incredible, weeks-long, bare-knuckle brawls. Even if they crossed the line (and often did), I still learned a great deal from all of the participants, even the ones I disagreed with. Some folks left, but many more stayed. Now? One comment, one spat, and that's it. Someone leaves the forum for good, the thread is moved to IP, folks shake their head at the barbarity of it all. (I'm not talking about clear fouls, like religion or family.) Be it in scouter.com, or in society at large, or at the national level, we have collectively lost the willingness to engage in debate. If someone says something that hurts our feelings, or we disagree with, the trend is to call a foul. Two members engage in a toe-to-toe argument. Some see it as debate, others as a calamity. Can we tell the difference in 2016?

It's good to know that there are still folks out there with the right perspective, thanks for sharing that. The scouts are capable of amazing insights and initiative, if they are given the opportunity.

My project involved landscaping at a mental institution. While we were working, patients would happen by and watch us work. Sometimes a patient wanted to work too. Well, why not? I'd give him or her a shovel and they'd labor alongside the scouts, and do a fine job. The institution staff was aware, and gave us scouts free reign of the campus, except for a few buildings. I rather doubt that would fly today.

@@Stosh, I completely concur with your position on scout-like behavior. It should apply to this forum and every aspect of our lives. Insulting another person's religion is always a foul. On the other hand, there have been several instances where a couple of members are having a good old fashioned dust up about something. No insults towards religion or family, just an exchange of several frank, pointed posts. An argument. Perhaps there is a rabbit punch or shot below the belt now and again, but the contestants take it in stride and press forward in their quest. Then, on the sideline, from members not in the arena, the hand-wringing begins: "this isn't scout-like....you are off topic...." I disagree. Let them duke it out. I'd rather someone wire-brush me here at scouter.com, and get it out of their system, that vent on their family, friends, coworkers, etc.

Some members depart because of an insult. Real or perceived. Others leave because they were pounced on the instant the discussion was not longer at the polite/tea/crumpets/white gloves/cucumber sandwich stage. I belong to another forum (not scouting related) with a subforum where people are allowed to scrap, at will. Members are warned that if you have sensitive feelings, stay out. Dust ups occur, people vent their spleen, things settle down, and the world balances anew.

Late '70s: you talked to the SM about your concept and he approved it. (The troop committee might have had some role in it, I can't recall.) Scout organized and executed the project. Afterwards, the scout wrote a paper about the project (no set format). The paper was submitted along with the Eagle application to council.

Question 2: the scout merely expressed the cons. Falls short. Question 4: the scout presented both points of view, pro and con. He was honest about his non-interest, and the reasons why. But he also took the time to figure/research the pros and could articulate those. So taking another look at my post, sure, the answer to question 4 may also fall a bit short of the requirement. But it shows initiative, insight into the profession, and the ability to comprehend two differing points of view.

This is right on the money.

Eagle94, I'm impressed with both the scouts and the scouters. You provided the scouts sound guidance, and they respected it and then proceeded to make sound decisions. PS (added) Regardless of their choice--mixed or NSP--I like the fact they had the courage to make a change. What works--mixed or NSP--is truly in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I dislike the NSP concept due to my own experience as a member of a NSP eons ago, and my observations as a scouter thereafter. But each troop is different and the NSP may work like a charm elsewhere.

@@Stosh, yes, I might be "overthinking" this:) I'll cease my screeds and finish thusly: If "I'm not interested" is the sum total of the scout's answer, that's unsat. "I'm not interested and here's a thoughtful discussion concerning the reasons why" is slightly better but doesn't meet the requirement. "I might be interested in this profession because of X Y and Z" the scout meets the requirement. "I'm not interested for X reasons, but another person might like this profession for Y reasons" that scout hits the ball out of the park.

I view the response "I'm not interested" akin to "I don't like mustard." If a scout doesn't like mustard, no one is forcing him to do so. It's a personal choice. Regardless of whether the MB is required for Eagle or not, the scout voluntarily signs up and says "I'll take the challenge." Even if the challenge is nothing more than gritting ones teeth and putting one foot in front of the other (eg, The Dreaded Citizenship Trio), it still requires effort, poise and the willingness to THINK and MEET the requirements. I'm not interested = I'm comfortable with my current state. Scouts that want to earn MBs and achieve rank should be able to demonstrate their willingness to learn and achieve things that are outside of their comfort zone. Not interested? Don't take the MB. Don't pursue rank. Enjoy the camaraderie and the outdoor adventure and other aspects of scouting. But if a scout wants to take the challenge of earning a MB, he needs to meet that challenge.

By "we" I meant "we scouters." Adults striving to impart peace/harmony/etc. on behalf of the scouts instead of letting the scouts achieve such goals on their own. I could have phrased my original point better. Here is what I'm seeing in this thread: the scouts make a decision, and pretty good one. And then the adults dissect and analyze every nuance of it. Did the scouts consider this? That? Way too far in the weeds. Let the scouts do their thing. Unless life/limb/abuse are involved, we don't need to overcomplicate the situation, nor throw a wet blanket on it. Granted, we're just talking here on the forum and the scouts are none the wiser. But I see this dynamic in action at times, and it stifles the scouts.

If he has zero interest in the subject, why is he pursuing the MB in the first place? Earning a MB doesn't make a scout an expert in the subject, but he should have some level of knowledge. "I'm not interested" strikes me as the easy way out. He should be able to articulate the pros and cons of any profession of any MB that HE signs up for. For example, let's say there is a Lunch Lady MB. If he has zero interest, why bother? Why waste everyone's time? If he has some interest, and wants to legitimately wear the MB on his sash, he might take the time to talk to a couple lunch ladies and ask they what motivates them. The ideals that strike a cord with the scout, he can articulate them to you. Requirement fulfilled. Then he's showing initiative, which is one of the key parts of earning an MB.

@@Stosh, okay, I'll bite For example, the lunch lady job. Though I have zero desire to apply for a lunch room job, I'll try to state why it might interest me. 1. Steady work. Many of the ladies have worked in the same school for years, decades even. 2. Impact. When I retired from the military, I was a substitute teacher for a year. One thing I learned right away: for the vast majority of the kids (in the elementary school where I taught), the only balanced meals they consume are at school. If they are fed at home, it's microwaved crap or fast food. Some kids received food packs on Friday, no-cook finger foods they could consume at home on Saturday and Sunday because they'd go hungry otherwise. The kids would stash the pack in their book bag and eat in secret at home over the weekend. 3. You get holidays and summers off.

Fellow scouters, an interesting discussion, but frankly, I think we are overthinking it. Are we striving to seek the most harmonious, self-actualizing patrols? If so, we're setting up the scouts for future confusion and disappointment. Be it college, or the military, or working in a hardware store, young adults must learn how to cope with human and team dynamics. If they are supervisors, they must know how to organize teams to maximize efficiency on the job and cooperation. Let the scouts run their patrols. Give them the freedom to succeed and make mistakes. When they move into the dorm, or join the Army, they'll find themselves working with a mixed bag of humans. They'll have to figure out how to get along. Mom, dad and the scoutermaster will not be there to guide them. Better to learn this lesson at 14 than 19.

I'm tracking with your point of view. I guess I'm looking at the question this way: there are many jobs I don't want to do. But if I'm going to earn a MB that is based on a particular profession, I should at least be able to figure out three high points about said profession, and articulate them to the counselor. Even if I have no personal desire or innate ability to join the profession myself. When I was in the AF, Airmen would sometimes approach me and ask my advice "should I retrain into career field X?" I'd been around long enough to know the positives and negatives for many career fields. I gave them a balanced view so they could make their decision. Many of these career fields I knew were unsuited for me personally, but I still needed to know the good and bad of each. Re feelings: I guess my stance is a bit harsh. Nonetheless, I think an important lesson for young folks to learn is to differentiate "duty" from "feelings." There are a lot of things an adult must do, regardless of feelings. PS For example, your tire factory story is a good one in many ways. I'll borrow one thought from it: let's say there was a Tire Manufacturing MB, and it had the requirement "explain why this profession might interest you." Though you know first hand that it doesn't interest you personally, there were (at the time) benefits nonetheless: high pay, retirement plan, established/needed product, stability, etc. Those aspects may not interest some, but the scout should at least make an attempt to articulate them. PPS Concur, those swim tests each year become less enjoyable

Not a valid answer. At best, it's just lazy and emotion-based. The requirement is asking the scout to exercise his intellect and ability to articulate. His personal feelings have no bearing whatsoever. If he can't summon the energy to outline the interesting points about a profession, it sounds like he's not ready to earn the MB.

Kudos to the scouts for their initiative, and I respect the scouters for having the courage to stand back and allow the scouts the freedom to do this without a bunch of adult nitpicking. Whatever wrinkles ensue, I'm sure the scouts will solve them.