desertrat77

Agreed.

(Jumping in not having read the entire thread....) The edict is a futile gesture. Pure egotism with little foothold in reality. Just ask the McDonald's and Wendy's workers who rejoiced for a moment about their big pay raise that was mandated by law. Their joy was temporary once they realized they were unemployed. Many went from low wages to zero income, and were replaced by self-service kiosks. Businesses, including the BSA, will figure a way to work around it. Fewer employees. More work for those "lucky" few that remain. Less service to the units. Now an interesting dynamic may occur internally to the organization. I know several civil service employees. Their reactions to the last involuntary furlough were telling. Many of them had a habit of staying late, getting work done on their own time. They weren't getting overtime pay, but they felt the need to stay on top of their projects. Professional pride. Now they leave right at the official end of the business day. If it doesn't get done during business hours, it will get done tomorrow. Or the next day. (Maybe that's not such a bad thing!) Switching gears: summer camp. I think @@cyclops summed it up well. It's a job but it's not about the pay. As a former camp staffer, I can honestly say I would have worked for free. When we filled out our tax paperwork at the beginning of each summer, we were told that we fell into the same tax category as migrant workers, for what it is worth.

Stosh, no doubt your charming personality is the key factor! :) My ribbing aside, your insight has given me hope for future years. I'm not far from that over 60 demographic. There is a need for that good listening. I've noticed that some youth are amazed when you listen to them. Doesn't matter whether it's at church, scouts or sports. I get the impression that many of them are isolated due the circumstances of their life. Though social media has its benefits, it's still no replacement for a good conversation around a campfire. Scouter.com can help fill that niche. Edited: We don't need to "church up" the website, be it software or organization, for the young folks. Just add the subforum you mentioned, and we'll be set. They figure things out pretty quickly.

@@Stosh, I think that would work. I too welcome the scouts' perspectives. However, I think we are going against a cultural tide. Here in the US, youth = cool/smart; adult = old/washed up/clueless. It's always been a dynamic in our society, but never more so than in 2016. Nonetheless, if both parties are willing to listen, and abide by the oath/law, a great deal of learning can be accomplished.

I agree with Stosh. I think this forum is just fine for both youth and adult scouters. Having a completely separate forum/blog would frankly lead to the "children's table" effect. Such a place may be a neat location to hang out and vent among like-minded participants. But it's a form of isolation. Perspectives aren't broadened. I saw this dynamic during my military career. The company grade officers council, or the junior enlisted groups--good places to be with peers. However, to be truly challenged? That won't happen in a comfort zone with peers. A couple more thoughts. Growing up BC (Before Computers), my most formative learning experiences as a senior scout (SPL and then JASM) were when my SM took me along to every district RT and some of his scout leader training courses. I was welcomed by all, learned a great deal from everyone, and was asked on occasion for my opinions and perspectives. Pretty cool stuff for your average 16 year old. It all served me well when I became an ASM and SM later. Here at scouter.com, we've seen several scout participants over the years. Most are here briefly, and then depart. They've got other things going on in life. A few got their feelings hurt and never returned because they received frank but professional feedback about a question or concern or opinion they had, but that seems to be society as a whole these days, and not just this forum. All told, I think this forum is fine, as is.

Krampus, thanks for the update, and I'm sure your eulogy will be superb. Our family is praying for you all.

Excellent! Excellent as well It's been said before I know, but I cannot express in words how over-the-top and self-indulgent most of those beading ceremonies are to us non-WB types. If they must be done in a public forum, please keep them dignified and short. Have a private gathering for all of the inside jokes, story telling, singing, etc. I know I sound like a big grumpy so-and-so (guilty as charged), but I'm one of those folks that not only watches the ceremony, and I watch the others in the audience as they witness the ceremony. Trust me, there is eye-rolling and "what the...." aplenty during the bead presentations.

Krampus, my deepest condolences. If there is anything I can do, please let me know. You all are in my prayers.

Thoughts and prayers....

Cohiba, welcome to the forums, and I think you stated the situation quite well. Indeed, RT is slowly becoming obsolete. Which is a darn shame, because even with our technological focus, there is still value in talking to other humans, face to face. But if RT doesn't meet the unit leaders' needs, they will stay away. Not enough hours in the day to fit in another meeting of nominal value. Or to hear another round of FOS/popcorn pitches or JTE browbeating. I like the brainstorming format. Good RTs that I've seen in my travels have more give and take between the units, and less one-way communication (district staffers talking to/at the unit leaders, endless reading of announcements, etc.). I've advocating making RT at least 50 percent social time, with snacks and beverages. Get the formal stuff out of the way, and if people want to stick around and unwind, vent, shoot the breeze with other scouters, it's a safe environment to do so. As a district staffer myself, we haven't had a RT staff nor a RT in several years. Instead, our monthly district staff meeting is an event where unit leaders are welcome, and our agenda addresses things that are of interest to both district and units. It's not perfect but it works well enough. We are a small, rural district. Folks travel long distance to attend meetings. And several scouters are dual hatted (district/unit). One meeting, one hour, district business taken care of, and folks socialize a bit afterwards.

Then present the 8 completed awards with all due fanfare, and when the others finish, have another ceremony with equal celebration. I'm obviously missing the point.

If the new books and such weren't available till the last minute, if at all, then all the more reason not to worry about everyone getting a badge. Award the few that were earned, and focus on other activities during the ceremony. Take the lessons learned, apply them, and in a couple months, have another ceremony to celebrate the bumper crop of awards. I still do not understand why there is such a hurry to present all of these awards. Cub scouting is a very long program today. Plenty of time to get caught up.

"Lighten up Krampus" sounds quite a bit like "Lighten up Francis." Paging Sergeant Hulka! One of the best Drill Sergeants ever!

@@Stosh, Interesting, my Bobcat pin is one of my favorites. A simple but very cool looking award. I was doggone proud of it, still am. And at the awards ceremony, we were held upside down while it was pinned on. How did we ever survive and become productive adults after such trauma?

Good stuff, Krampus!

Stosh, you mention the bling and the program. When I came back to scouting after a long break, I was dumbfounded at how many geegaws the cub program had added over the years. Perform a simple task--here's a patch, pin, loop, bead! So cub scouting depends on shiny objects to keep kids involved? How shallow is that? Not to mention financially profitably for National to sell all of that stuff. The scouts can see through it. When there is a multitude of junk, none of it seems valuable. The only people impressed are the adults, who can only see little boys sitting there in the audience and gosh, we don't want to see Johnny upset. Different point of view: treat Johnny like a young man and he'll conduct himself as such. Treat him like a baby, and most of the time, he'll act like a baby. But it's tough to convince some cub scout leaders of that. Nostalgia aside, my personal experience as a cub scout was wonderful. Superb from day 1 till I got my AOL. Activities, games, snacks, skills, field trips, I loved every minute of it. Here is the entire list of my cub bling: Bobcat pin Wolf patch (with minimum arrow pts) Bear patch " " " Arrow of light Webelos activity pins (minimum required) Pinewood derby ribbon (semi finalist) Three years, and that's it. But what else did we cubs need? The emphasis was on the PROGRAM and not a bunch of CHEAP GIMCRACKS. It's not the cubs that have the problem. It's the adults. The adults are so afraid that Johnny will get upset if he doesn't get a badge like everyone else. Well, he might and he'll get over it with the help of some kind but firm advice. However...Johnny more than likely will surprise everyone and take the disappointment in stride. For that matter, he may not care either way. This is more about the adults' needs/fears/goals than the cubs.'

Fehler, the hollowest gesture of all would be to give the cubs the award they didn't really finish. They know the score. If they don't receive the award now because of timing, they can keep chipping away at it and get it in a couple months. Not the end of the world. You mention the old drill sergeant...well, I wasn't a drill sergeant, but I retired from the military not too long ago. A trend I noticed over the years: bright young folks that can't handle disappointment. Passed over for promotion...didn't win a certain award...didn't get the medal they expected...etc...some just can't process it. They can't believe it. They've always had coaches, teachers, parents, scout leaders and others pulling for them, giving full credit each step of the way. Even if they didn't deserve it. And when they hear "no" for the first time, it really shakes some of them to their core. Fortunately, most are made of better stuff than that and they work through the pain, and get with the program. But what a shame to have to learn that lesson at 20 in a professional environment. Far better to experience disappointment as a youngster, in a situation that does not have such high stakes. Sure, it hurts but they'll get over it. "But they are just cubs." Yes. Perfect age to learn an invaluable lesson. Then they'll handle those future disappointments with more poise and perspective.

Excellent perspective T2Eagle, thanks. I'm not a jambo person, so it's interesting to read these threads. Given the choice between jambo and attending an obscure no-frills council camp somewhere, I'll choose the latter 100 percent of the time. If I'm going to spend more money, a high adventure trek would be my preference.

How often do we hear this when it comes to "well he tried".... "But he's only five" "But he's only eight" "But he's only ten" Yes. And then some day, he'll be only 16, and will have never learned the value of completing what he started.

Stosh, I agree. The cubs know a cheap give-away award when they see it. And they'll attach the appropriate value.

The cubs know who earned the award and who didn't. Adults can pretend that the cubs aren't that aware. But that would be a mistake. Those cubs know who hit the mark and who didn't. Presenting an undeserved award demeans the awards of the cubs who did earn it. Giving them all awards despite some kids not fulfilling the requirements = short term guilt relief for adults + long term demotivation for the many kids who did meet/exceed the requirements.

If you feel compelled to give something, let it be of nominal value and of practical use, like a collapsible camp cup. I'd recommend it be given to all, and not just the non-badge earners.

Last paragraph, yes.

Joseph, welcome to the campfire! I too am learning about Venturing. My daughter joined a crew and is having a blast. From what little I know, there are still LE Explorer posts. They are career-focused. Venture crews (like my daughter's) spend a great deal of time backpacking and camping. They have much more flexibility than a traditional scout troop, and this is a boon for many. However, I've noticed that some scouters do not quite know what to make of Venture crews. For a variety of reasons--the coed structure, the options (such as uniforming) that scout troops don't have, etc. We have many experts here at scouter.com who know much more than I do on the subject. If what I've shared is wrong, please let me know. Joseph, I look forward to your insights and experiences along the way. Best wishes and have a good evening.

In the back country, my goal is to limit interaction with other humans to the most rational and polite extent possible. So it would not matter to me what color other peoples' clothes may be. After I pay my respects, I'll press down the trail to a more remote spot. Over the years, LNT has morphed from guidance into dogma. The LNT crowd does get overzealous. What you wear is strictly your decision.