desertrat77

Beavah, I'd prefer coed all the way, but being aware of the strong beliefs of others, I'd opt for your second recommendation: have parallel programs, boy track and girl track, and then merge both at age 14.

I don't see anything wrong with auctioning these things on ebay. Most buyers are probably collectors, who will get the item and save it. They are willing to pay the extra money for the privilege. Even if an imposter buys an item and wears it, what possible gain could they get from it? Undeserved recognition? We have plenty of guys already running around claiming Eagle Scout status, badge or no badge. Since there is no concrete benefit a person can gain from improperly wearing or collecting these items, I don't worry about it.

I don't think a distinction is necessary. Too many in scouting already--those silly shoulder loops, for example. Next thing you know, National might sell a Cubmaster Patch with a gold star on it to show the wearer to be a recipient of the Award of Merit. How needless a distinction would that be? While I wholeheartedly agree that an Arrowman is an Arrowman, this is not always practiced. The Vigil Honor folks can be quite unsufferable at times. Outside the OA, WBers and Eagle Scouts can be just as full of themselves.

I agree with Ken. No management tool can replace the human-to-human feedback that results from genuine rapport. I've done several of these feedback instruments in military professional development courses. I have yet to see, from both my experience and the peers who shared their results with me, any genuine revelation. The results just kinda confirm what was already known. The rare exception is the manager who doesn't realize what a freak show he really is until he opens the envelope.

PS. Knot tying, or any other skill, is kept sharp by regularly programmed competitions during troop meetings and camporees. And, as many have already noted, by teaching newer scouts. So it begs the question: if senior scouts can't do basic scout tasks, what are their meetings and outdoor events like? There are probably other deficiencies in the troop as well.

This patch, without a doubt, is the lamest thing I've seen BSA put forth in a long time.

It's completely reasonable to expect older scouts to tie knots, etc. I'm a firm believer that everyone--scouter and scout--should know and demonstrate basic scoutcraft skills--tentage, cooking, knots, hiking, map and compass, first aid, etc. These are foundational skills for all. If the scout is going to serve in a leadership position, and be a role model to the younger scouts, they've got to know their scoutcraft. It's a matter of personal credibility, and instilling the traditional skills and values of scouting in each individual scout. It's all about leadership. Setting the bar high. Making the scout work for that badge so that when he finally sews it on, he's proud of the hard work that went in to earning it. Looking back three decades, the merit badges I'm the proudest of are the ones that were the toughest to earn. The instructor made me sweat each requirement, and whether it was explain/show/demonstrate/write, I had to show a depth of knowledge, or action, that I wasn't expecting. And sometimes doubted I had what it took to complete it. To the subject at hand, as a tenderfoot, I had to practice many, many hours to learn those basic knots. They didn't come naturally. And my patrol leader wasn't the nicest guy in the world, to say the least. He wasn't going to cut me any slack. So it was a combination of a) pride in achievement and b) showing my PL that I wasn't the dummy he thought I was. Learning these two lessons has helped me at every stage of my life afterwards. And I can still tie every knot that I learned as a scout. Here's the kicker: all scouts are up for the challenge. It's often the adults that dumb down requirements, and have low expectations, in the mistaken belief that taking it easy is the secret to happiness and self worth. Actually, the opposite is true.

My daughter joined brownies at the 3rd grade. I signed on as a co-leader, my first involvement in any scout leader role in many years. So my daughter enjoyed brownies, to a point. Then we got orders, moved, and I signed on as a UC at our new location. I took her to the local scout camp for the day. That did it for her. She swore never to join girl scouts again, "because I don't want to sit around gluing popsicle sticks! I want to do what the boy scouts do." Well, we got orders again. At our new location, we were lucky enough to find a GS troop that was run like a boy scout troop! Big emphasis on the outdoors. I too find that the girls thrive in the outdoors, and can meet whatever challenge comes their way. Leadership influences programming. If you have indoor people running the program, be it GSA or BSA, it is sure going to reflect......

Wakwib, I can understand how Heart of America has continued to excel. I had the privilege of attending summercamp at Bartle Scout Reservation in the late '80s. The emphasis on scouting values, council traditions, and the great outdoors (as well as the other qualities you mentioned) impressed me greatly. A scout from any era would feel right at home at Bartle.

Liberty--wonderful, with consequences both good and bad.

Coed scouting, or at least some substantial progress in that direction, will indeed boost the BSA, and it give the movement new life. As a former Brownie co-leader, and the father of two girls, I can safely say that many girls would love to be part of the BSA for the adventure. Waiting to turn 14 to join Venture is a painful wait for many. Both girls and boys thrive on adventure, and the girls are more than capable to meet any challenge that comes their way.

Adventure is the key. I think that's how scouting survived the Great Depression, for example. Pocket knife, hatchet, matches, yucca pack, and two blankets pinned together for a makeshift sleeping bag, and the scout of yesteryear was having the time of his life. Kids can play soccer anywhere, anytime. BSA national is wasting alot of time and energy thinking soccer is going to get kids to join scouting. If you desire leadership and management training, you can get it from a variety of places, from executive courses offered at major universities, to the standard Management 101 three credit class at your local community college. So why dilute the most truly unique selling point of the BSA--adventure--with a hodge podge of stuff that other organizations offer (and often do much better than BSA)? Some downplay the importance of fieldcraft and the outdoors. Really, it was the common thread of success throughout the history of scouting. Even the funky 70s BSA revamp didn't snuff the flame of adventure out completely. Frankly, we have many adults in scouting these days that aren't really interested in camping, hiking, boating, or anything else in the outdoors. Either they don't like the outdoors, or they aren't too comfortable with fieldcraft, or both. And this attitude perculates throughout the BSA, and ultimately affects the organization. It's like the sales force at a car dealership not promoting the best car on the lot because it has a manual gear shift, and they aren't comfortable with that kind of transmission.

Kudu, I'm glad you are back! Though I do not have Kudu's breadth/depth of knowledge, I offer this personal opinion of modern WB: just about every photo, and every verbal account, of every WB session, that I have ever seen and heard, is of participants sitting in the camp mess hall. Patrols are formed, yes, but together they don't seem to go outdoors and do things. Little/to no hiking, monkey bridge building, wood chopping, swimming, campfire cooking, boating, physical activity, save flag ceremonies. Sedentary scouting--emphasis on book learning, sitting in metal chairs for long periods of time, listening to adults speak for most of the meeting, having adults do all the planning-- at the troop level is often the cause of poor advancement and decline in membership. So if WB is truly the pinnacle of adult scouting education, why does the course emphasize methods that run counter to development of thriving units? I'm not advocating the revamp of WB to make it more scouting/outing. Elvis has truly left the building on that count. But it would be nice if a completely new course were offered for adults that was truly challenging, both intellectually and physically, for scouters who want an experience that mirrors the principles that have made scouting a success over the decades--namely, classic scoutcraft and the patrol method. I understand there is such a course, offered at Philmont, but it's for WB grads only.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Definitely make your own--still have mine from the '70s.

John, not sure what you mean by the skill award and rigor issue? I know I worked hard for those skill awards back in the day. The only difference I could tell was that you had immediate recognition in the form of that metal loop. It seems, based on my study many years ago, that most of the old school TF - FC skills were stripped from the ranks themselves and reformed under the banner of skill awards.

Bacchus, I believe that one can be a good scouter without taking WB. I do not believe that WB is the litmus test for proof of scouter dedication. I don't believe that WB will fix everything. I believe that WB is an optional course, and if someone wishes to take it, I wish them the best. Desertrat77

Bacchus, if you can guarantee that WB changes attitudes, well, that's a pretty darn powerful course. Unfortunately, I haven't seen this from the WBers I've worked with over the decades. Many are great scouters, but their attitudes were probably good before they took the course. The course only made it better. There are just as many examples at the opposite end of the WB spectrum as well. Again, I don't think there is any proof that a WBer is a better scouter than a non-WBer. Depends on the individual.

Lisabob, well said, thanks for the perspectives.

Bacchus, where does your drop out fall short? On scouting knowledge? Enthusiasm? Human relations? Communication? If it's anything other than scouting knowledge, sure, perhaps he should have finished the course and learned something. If it's scouting knowledge? How much of that does one get from WB today? Even if he graduated, is there any guarantee that he'd be different? (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Sbemis, that's my point exactly! If WBers want to have a mountain top experience, more power to them. If it makes someone a better scouter, great. But it's not for everyone, and that doesn't make them lesser scouters. For someone to claim that a) WB is the pinnacle of scouting leadership and b) if you don't attend you are a lesser scouter for it, well, that's unproven territory. It's always distateful for someone to wave their degree, or duty title, or standing in the community, in your face, with the upshot being that if you had any gumption at all, you'd be as good as them, and that their degree/position/standing makes them a better person. So what evidence is out there that makes the WBer better than the non WBer? I think it depends on the individual scouter. There are many WBers that are far superior scouters than I could every hope to be. Converesely, there are non-WBers that WBers couldn't hold a candle to. My gripe isn't with WB per se, but the bandwagon/anybody-who-wants-to-have-any-standing-at- all-in-scouting-will-take-this-course-viewpoint.

Gary, what evidence exists that WBers are better scouters than non-WBers?

Gary, nice sales pitch, well done. But, after 26 year of military service, and many years of night school, I can safely say I've been satisfactorily empowered, had cheese stolen, managed minutes, embarked on total quality management journeys that never ended, and have otherwise been Blanchard-ed, Deming'd, Covey'd, Leaned, Six Sigma'd, Taylor'd, Maslow'd, Drucker'd, Fayol'd, all to the point of distraction and disorientation. Plus, I might draw disability for having been beat about the head and shoulders with Cog's Ladder. The thought of rehashing this, or something like it, in a camp mess hall for two weekends is more than I can bear. I wish WBers and candidates all the best, but at this point in life, 1 day with my family is more valuable. If this makes me a bad scouter, and a bad person, then I shall somehow stumble through life anyhow, in my ignorant, unwashed, and unbeaded state.

That's a great plan! Serving on summer camp staff is an experience one never forgets. To hold the ceremony at camp, with staff, in a place with so many scouting memories, it's bound to be great. Congratulations to Patrick and the whole family.

Moosetracker, it may be a bit of both. Though the ticket said "shed" and not "trailer", in truth, a complete inventory of gear can't be done without doing both. Suffice to say this scenario has the same vibe as many that play out in my household. Dads tend to see things through the prism of "the young man needs to learn how to handle tough jobs, and not complain." Moms tend to side with their little boy, though the boy might be almost six feet tall. At some point, the teenager will become an adult and enter the workforce. He will face similiar tasks, and arbitrary rules, in his profession. Mom won't be there to defend him. Moms and dads both want their boys to grow up and be men of character. Unfortunately, character is often built during periods of difficulty. Unconditional love is wonderful, but tough times really seal the deal.

"You're a good caddy, something to be very proud of...." Judge Elihu Smails