desertrat77

Mike F, thanks for your post, it's good to see the true spirit of scouting alive. Your scouts obviously responded to good training and leadership...by treating them like young men, instead of babies, they are learning some valuable lessons. All scouts are capable of handling sheath knives safely--sadly, many are never given the chance.

Seattle, I think MC's idea, while revolutionary, has merit. As a scout in the '70s, the adult scouters I knew, including the ones at council, wore some very spartan uniforms. The only adults that wore uniforms regularly were SM, CM, DL. And I was in three different councils coming up. When I signed up as an adult in the mid '80s, having been away from BSA for about five years, I was shocked at the amount of adult uniform swag/doodads/geegaws. A related issue was the sheer volume of adult volunteers who served in district and council sinecures, and showed little to no interest in camping or what was happing at the troop level. They'd spend alot of time with each other. Virtually no help to the troop or pack. Same observations from when I re-joined as a UC four years ago. I've been in three councils since due to military moves, and same trend: lots of adults, lots of swag on uniforms, not much interest in the out of doors. So the ideal solution, at least to me, would be for the BSA to revive it's incredible past and get folks in the outdoors--adventure. But that runs contrary to BSA's present climate. Why? Many adults aren't comfortable in the outdoors. And there are ample rewards for not serving at troop level, in the woods. And like minded adults will recruit like minded.... To refocus on the outdoors, and scouting's past, would mean the loss of adults serving today, or at least some discomfort on their part. Many are more comfortable serving indoors or safe environments. And National has a wagonload of swag to reward them! The upside to refocus on adventure, and demphasis on adult uniforming: we'd attract many men and women who would never consider serving in BSA's present structure. Adventure minded adults are the solution to this issue and many other problems in BSA's present stagnation. But honestly, it would be an uphill battle. The friction between indoor vs. outdoor types? The indoor ones would win, and have been winning for a long time.

MC, I've got to mull over your adult uniform suggestion, gotta admit it's intriguing. You are spot on about the mediocrity in the BSA. Lots of meetings, lots of homework, lots of rules. All very safe and very boring.

Shortridge, fair enough. Hyperbole is the right word, though, to describe how some LNT faithful deliver their program. Disagree with a tenet, and one is lectured like a Tent Trencher, or a Bough Cutter. Programs are great and can be helpful when solving any problem, be it wilderness preservation or reducing DUIs. But programs, and meetings, and checklists, and education, are only part of it. The key is instilling larger principles such as respect, responsibility and the like (essentially our oath and law). Building these values takes time and much effort. But they ensure a lasting solution. (edited by desertrat77 to remove unhelpful rant)(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

- Little league baseball 1 year (I stunk), youth football two years (loved it) - High school shooting team (small bore) for three years - For high school PE, rotated each semester between water polo and football - As a scout lots of hiking and camping; earned Red Cross Advanced Lifesaving and Lifeguard BSA - In the Air Force 25+ years, played intramural flag football approx 13 seasons and softball for 2 I'm not a great athlete but competent enough. Regardless, I've found sports to be a good bridge when building rapport with young people. The competitive spirit, perseverance, teamwork, you name it--folks of any age can relate to these ideals, even if they've long hung up their cleats. I've played intramural flag football the last two seasons (perhaps against better judgment)--though I'm a certified old guy. Huge bond with the troops. Amazing how young you feel when you are winning...and how sore you are next morning, win or lose.

Gern, in that scenario, both would be cause enough for me to push on to another campsite. As far as the visuals, I agree that one blends in better than the other. But I'm still not clear on how tent and clothing color impact the wilderness itself. It doesn't and I guess that's the rub. Many LNT tenets make sense and have been in practice for a long time. Others are personal preferences presented with a zeal that insinuates that anything less than 100 percent buy in makes you a Hater of The Earth. It just ain't so

Shortridge, the very fact that LNT presupposes the need to lecture folks on what color clothes they should wear or what color tent to own is mind numbing. I support each person's right to wear whatever the heck they want and to purchase and pitch whatever tent strikes their fancy.

Proud Eagle, as a scout I camped and backpacked extensively in deserts of southern Arizona, and way off the beaten path in the birch forests and tundra of Alaska. I'm know first hand how delicate those ecosystems can be. Long before the cottage industry of LNT existed, we knew where to camp and where not to, and how to leave the earth unspoiled. We didn't need a seminar or certification to accomplish this. Instead, we had leaders that instilled the principles of respect for the outdoors, and they set the example themselves.

Gern, my backyard is quite a bit smaller than the caribou's, and the bear's. And since they were here first, they are always welcome. My point is that the earth endures the strain of caribou migration and other natural occurrences surprisingly well. To say the earth will be grievously harmed by eight scouts hiking on the earth's surface, or if a scout picks up a piece of deadwood "larger than his wrist" or if he sets up an orange dome tent--that's a stretch, to put it mildly.(This message has been edited by Desertrat77)

And when bears start policing up their poo, and caribou herds refrain from trodding upon delicate flora, perhaps that will be the day I'll give some credence to some of the more extreme tenets of LNT.

Eamonn, thank you for sharing your wise and frank post. Much food for thought.

Well, we can be certain of one thing: As long as everyone is huddled all day in the camp mess hall listening to LNT briefs and WB management theory, the great outdoors will be safe from the perils of hikers walking on soil or a camper picking up dry firewood.

Good scouts were practicing LNT before LNT was cool. And well before the LNT cottage industry of today existed. "Take nothing but photos, leave nothing but footprints" is an old scout axiom. The guidelines? A good patrol leader taught their new scouts over the course of their first camp out through actual practice. As a scout of the funky '70s, we refrained from trenching and sweeping ground cover away, took great pains to disperse dishwater properly, etc.--check out the fieldbook from that era, the emphasis on respecting the earth is quite strong. So here comes LNT...and like many programs that exist today, it's nothing more than the "bureaucratization" of simple precepts. Other than a few modern twists like packing out your used TP, you can find the guiding principles of the LNT program in the scout handbooks and field books of the early '70s onward. It's a modern but distressing trend, this mad desire to develop detailed programs for every aspect of the scouting experience. The scout oath and law, if instilled properly, well encompasses LNT and many other rule-heavy programs. As a staff member at a very spartan camp in Alaska, our camp director told each camper at the opening fire that the only rules for the week were the scout oath and law. That's it. We have very very very few problems of any kind over the three summers I worked there. Scouts can grasp and apply big principles. We just rarely give them a chance. Instead, we stifle these finer moments under a blizzard of lectures and rules.

Late seventies, camp staff, Alaska Council had a stock of 1950s dark green Explorer shirts. Issued each staffer two. Heavy yet comfortable material, looked great, tough as nails. Sewed on eagle knot and lodge flap that's all. Wore it with the green '70s pants. A wonderful shirt. Wished it still fit.

My best to all!

Evmori, Definitely pie time! DR77

Sometimes, our senses of duty and resilence both hurt and help us. Sometimes we stay in situations that aren't healthy out of loyalty, etc. But there are times it's best to cut bait...... Best wishes in your new unit! The fresh air is no doubt welcome after your previous unit.

Scoutfish, much of the I-know-it-all student attitude can be nipped in the bud by running a respectful training session. When the average scouter shows up for an all-day session, and the atmosphere is one of "Sit down, be quiet, we (the training cadre) have alot to say today, we shall cover every minute point in the syllabus, let the powerpoint death march begin, and by the way, the only time we want to hear from you students is when we sing "The Grand Olde Duke of York" well, this is fertile ground for discontent. Particularly when the cadre passes along a "we district/council scouters are holier than you unwashed unit level folks." No fish tale there, seen it. No doubt it's related to one of my favorite threads still chugging along whether WB is about the beads or no........anyhoo...... Good instructors--anywhere in the world--know their audiences. Respect begets respect. Any superb BSA instructor I've known (and there are a few) always conveys a sense of respect and good humor during class time. And is willing to trim some fluff out of the syllabus, for sanity's sake.

Kudu: Amen! And if I may add, sedentary BSA programming does a solid job of discouraging many of those who manage to crossover after the too-long Webelo program. Desertrat77

Drmbear, I'm with you. One-size-fits-all-training is rarely beneficial for training cadre or participant. It only satisfies the middle management training staffer tracking "percent trained" stats. Now that you mention it, I can't remember being asked to evaluate a BSA training course. And I've seen the spectrum over the years as a military guy traveling about. Also, a common vibe is "this is the training, we're the training cadre, and we know best"--even brand new scouters are turned off by this. They may be new to scouting, but they are no means clueless--they have skills from parenting, previous scouting, professional credentials, employment, etc. Even if the course material is somewhat inflexible, training cadres CAN control many aspects of of the training session, to include their attitude, and course content.

The young lady probably needs the structure and positive influence of scouting now more than ever.

Seattle, great idea! Getting the cubs out of the meeting hall and outdoors is the key to success. Thinking aloud: Maybe teach the cubs some basic bike maintenance--they like those kinds of challenges, and it would encourage responsibility for their own rides. Again, super idea--wish you all the best.

Most folks don't resent training. They will, however, resent being direspected. Disrespect comes in the forms of: - Being told something is "mandatory" -- only to fulfill a higher hq imperative at the leaders' expense - Disregarding leaders' previous experience - Redundant, irrelevant course material - Pendantic or condescending instructors - Taking X days to teach a course that could be taught in a much shorter time (for example) Your council may have none of these issues, some, or all. But if we are "selling a product" and folks don't want to come in the door, we have to be willing to ask why AND be willing to change.

Our scouts' health is a reflection of the adults in their life. "Physically strong" can be achieved in any number of ways, but we all--scouts and scouters--have a duty to pursue this ideal to the maximum extent possible. Alancar, it's a mixed message, I agree. On a related subject, I marvel at the salesmanship of expensive gear and uniforms in scouting publications--we want to recruit more scouts, but then send the message that Johnny really should have an $100+ rain fly to sleep under during light camping, etc., thus insinuating that scouting is an upper middle class activity. A shower curtain from the dollar store would work just as well under most circumstances.

Merry Christmas! All the best to you and yours.