desertrat77

As a scout in the '70s, I read every old scout book prior to 1972 that I could find. At the time, I lamented the fact that I'd missed out on old scouting. I compared the uniforms, advancement program, literature, you name it, against the same from years past, and the '70s stuff was always found wanting. In retrospect, I think what kept scouting alive thru those dark times as the scouters at the unit level who knew and practiced old scouting. Sure, advanced under the '70s program (my camping merit badge from '75 doesn't have a silver border--camping MB was optional then), but the dedicated scouters at the troops, packs, ships, taught us the old skills, and instilled the traditional values of scouting from the past. This really saved scouting during those dark years from '72 - '80, then Green Bar Bill came back and got the BSA back on track. I was an Eagle and ready to go to college when the GBB handbook came out. I'll never forget how happy I was to read it. It was truly a page from the past--it contained everything that made scouting a success prior to the '72 - '80 era. And on to the present. At district level and above, we have many people, well meaning, that serve in positions all the way up to national that don't camp, and view field craft and adventure as something beneath them. Many also view district service, and levels above, as the more important strata of scouting, and the troops in the field exist to support the vast bureaucracy. The great news to me is that unit leaders can still teach scouts the old values and skills. That's where real scouting takes place anyway, it certainly isn't at district or above. District level scouting and above are clerical functions to support the troops (you'd never know it by some of the attitudes though). I think we'll come thru this fine. Particularly if the economy worsens. Scouting may be a nice low cost option for families. And while hiking staves made with space-age polymers may be out of the reach of some, we can always find an old branch lying around that can be formed into a hiking stave.

Small lock box for valuables Football Frisbie Diaper wipes Sneakers that can get ruined and thrown away Skeeter netting to cover cot Crocs or suitable substitute

I think the world crest started ramping up early/mid 80s. Never saw widespread use prior to that, unless they were US military folks who were in scouting overseas and had partcipated in a joint camp or such with scouting from another nation. Admittedly, my memory is a little hazy on that point. Personally speaking, I think shoulder loops are just wrong, period! Don't folks have a position patch to ID their level of service? Do we really need extra geegaws to tell the world "I work at such/such level?" Awfully vain uniform items, those loops. Digression over. I have a few of the old shirts, and love the simplicity.

Buffalo, if I was in your council, I'd have no problem giving during FOS. But in Basement's council? Not a penny. I would follow Moose's example to the letter. I've been in a lousy council in the past, much like Basement's, and I would not give to FOS. If the council and district staffs will not serve the units--in a service-oriented organization no less--then I'm fine with the council folding. I will not subsidize poor service, whether it's BSA or any other entity.

In today's economy, every dollar counts. I applaud penalizing poor service, and lousy attitudes, BSA or otherwise. If there is no tangible return on investment, then folks vote with their wallets. In a larger sense, this highlights how important scouting is at the troop level. That's where scouting takes place. Everything else above that is bureaucracy and middle management. Some is necessary, much of it is not. If the choice is to give 1 dollar to the council, or a troop, I'll give it to a troop every time. And a closing potshot: annual popcorn sales are a waste of time--if you are at unit level. I've believed that since the BSA started it in the late '80s.

Agreed, why not take their word of honor, as a scouter, that they completed the training? If units are conducting their own training, that's a strong signal. Council/district training cadres should take note--perhaps the training they provide needs a serious relook.

Bando, I'm sorry to hear the news. I wasn't a bugler, but I always thought highly of those who served in the role. It's a shame when an important part of scouting's heritage is discontinued.

I remember them well! Earned ten, I think. The main benefit was the instant recognition factor. Once you completed the requirements, you received that metal belt loop right then, right there. This was a huge morale factor considering merit badges were handed out at courts of honor, usually a couple months after you earned them. I wore them proudly, and they are all scratched up from hiking and camping. I retired the skill awards and the web belt when I completed my Philmont trek and started wearing the Philmont leather belt.

LanceEagle, I think the ideal time is different for each scout. As long as the scout is fulfilling his responsibilities, and meeting the requirements, he should be allowed to progress at a pace that is right for him. That said, some may need encouragement to pick up the pace if Eagle is the goal, and the calendar is running out. Others may be moving so fast they are skimming the surface. One position I'm not in favor of is slowing down a scout who is moving fast, yet doing everything properly. Some adults have a hang up about scouts who earn Eagle at a young age. Eagle awardees have to show leadership, but the award itself does not guarantee the wearer has fully polished leadership skills. Even if the Eagle has a few lessons left to learn, they'll "grow into" the rank as they experience more challenges.

I interpret "assistance" as someone (mom, dad, counselor) performing the requirements (in whole or in part) FOR the scout. If several scouts are working together on a giant project, and they are all exhibiting the skills required of the MB, I don't view that as "assistance." They did the work, it just so happens their collective efforts built one item. I view this in terms of outcome. For a strict interpretation of assistance, each scout would build something, on his own, that may be value. Or it was something that met the requirement and it goes in the closet till a future yard sale. The outcome? Scout gets his badge and learns a thing or two about carpentry. Working together on a big project? Teamwork, camaraderie, sense of purpose, buiding something of value that will serve the community for quite a while? All while learning and displaying carpentery skills? Sounds like the very outcomes we are trying to teach scouts. And a good intro to Eagle Project 101.

A nice knife, doesn't have to be official BSA.

Eagle92, taking hats off while indoors is an Air Force standard as well. Modern day, the only two exceptions are dining facility staffers on duty, and those under arms.

Scoutfish, I'd recommend exercising your option to wear a hat as you see fit. I wear a hat in the field to keep the sun from frying me. In town? No thanks.

Eagle, it is puzzling: of everything I've read or heard about over the years, those Exploring awards were honorable. Did I miss something?

double post(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

My vote for the best shoulder loop change would be to have no shoulder loops at all.

Eagle92, thanks for the info. I'm a little surprised they dropped the old school Exploring awards.

Chazz, outstanding! That's the way it should be, very cool.

Eagle92, gotta ask: did sea scouting give a reason as to why some knots were cut? Quite interesting!

Chazz, thanks for sharing your story. I too have those same three knots, having earned the training award after several years as an ASM. Our UC noticed I'd qualified for it, and prodded me into filling out the app. He presented the knot and certificate to me at an 8 second, impromptu ceremony at a camporee, right before Saturday night dinner. I really got a kick out of it, and appreciated the UC's efforts. That was 21 years ago, and I am still happy with those three knots.

Nick, while the cords are a worthy accomplishment, I would not recommend a knot be created to represent them. That red/white/blue knot you just sewed on: there are scouters who would trade all of their other knots for the privilege to wear just that one. In time, you'll see that your Eagle knot more than encompasses all of your scouting achievements.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

The rank should be rescinded. Whatever his motives, he is at the right age to learn the consequences for this behavior. No need to humilate him. If handled properly, he will gain an important life lesson. Better he learn to stop the habit now instead of getting nabbed for bogus data on an Eagle app, or a college app, or a resume. I've found that scouts are far more balanced on these matters than their parents. Explain the behavior, the effects, and the consequences, and the vast majority of the scouts will agree and take the situation in stride. Mom and/or dad, that's another matter. They are often the ones that will get emotional and argumentative. To me, this was the most difficult aspect of serving at troop level--sometimes, the kids have a more mature outlook on life than their parents.

To echo two of BadenP's points: token rewards (aka shiny objects) and BSA literature rehashs will not get folks to RT. In a life full of meetings, and powerpoint death marches, RT is quite easy to scratch off the list. Meeting organizers, bless them, feel safe by having every meeting structured from start to finish. There should be plenty of time for open forum discussion, and then old fashioned fellowship. That said, facilitators must be firm but fair. RTs can easily be steered by the old timers into familiar ruts (griping about the recharting process as well as council/district intrigues). This stuff is enjoyed by a few but a turn off to anyone else. Gotta keep the dialogue fresh and worthwhile.

I recall these in use late '70s...though unauthorized, they were tolerated (at least in the 2 lodges I was in) with good humor. Never saw the need for them myself, but to each their own. Re the red wool coat: there may have been a rule about the number of patches, but it certainly wasn't enforced, or groused about by uniform police, like the present...folks had alot of freedom in the number patches sewn on their coat.

Alamance, sorry you've got to endure such grief, but someone once told me that leadership is indeed a "contact sport." You can score five touchdowns and have a perfect quarterback rating, but you'll still leave the field with bruises and cuts, from legal hits and cheap shots. It's galling to get such responses from adults, but it's all worth it in the long run. Best wishes.