desertrat77

Thanks Boomer, will definitely catch up on some reading!

A truly great lady...my deepest condolences.

GKlose, glad you all had a great camp. One point you mentioned, consideration for the adults. A little appreciation for adult leaders goes a long ways, and the camp staff leadership that figures that out will make some serious goodwill. When I was a SM at camp in '87, I got a thank you mug--and I still have it to this day, and will always value it. The other point is noise. Folks seem to think their right to make noise trumps another person's right to peace and quiet. I think the opposite is true. There's a time to be rowdy, and a time to be quiet. After taps, it's quiet time. Thanks for sharing your experiences with us--this forum would definitely benefit from more posts like yours.

PS If you can find a fundraiser that gives you a better return on the investment of your time and energy, definitely ditch the popcorn sales.

These are all awesome suggestions, and would no doubt benefit all troops, regardless of location. The only tip I'd add is this: find some old scout handbooks, and fieldbooks, and randomly check how scouts did it back then. Not for nostalgia's sake (though that can be satisfying), but because scouting wasn't always the "Gucci" high-dollar activity it has evolved into now. As others have pointed out, gear can be shared, procured from thrift stores, or made at home. Delicious food can be made from the simpliest of ingredients (my old fieldbook has some recipes I like to this day). While the economy remains questionable for now, it's important to let our scouts and their parents know we are doing everything we can to keep costs low. Ten dollar nalgene water bottle? A simple plastic one from your local grocer is probably less than two bucks and just as effective. High dollar sleeping bag "made from space age polymers?" No reason a scout can't pin two blankets together during the summer time. Old scout handbooks will show you how. Official patrol cook kits? All very nice and shiny. But at the end of the day, it's still aluminum. Goodwill might have a collective of old coffeepots and pans for a fraction of the price of the Official BSA Cook Kit--and may be more durable. The cool thing is the outdoor experience is just as good with inexpensive gear as it is with expensive gear--in fact, it's probably more enjoyable with less gear because you aren't spending all your time fretting, tracking or adjusting the high dollar stuff.

Moving around as a military guy for 25+ years, I have only come across one council that had any semblance of a NESA chapter. No footprint in the others. One council, in fact, had an Eagle alum organization that was completely homegrown with no known to connections to NESA. My goal, when I retire from the military and begin career number 2, is to either work with the local NESA chapter or start one. But as others have mentioned, NESA appears to be a newsletter and a fundraising avenue. There is a new, expanded NESA website that encourages networking, so perhaps that is a step in the right direction. But I do wonder about NESA's motivations--how committed it really is to getting old eagles involved again. And I wonder about local council support for NESA if in fact a chapter wanted to make it's mark. Not sure how folks would view an official band of eagle alums influencing policy and events. If you have a chapter at your location, and want to bolster that, I'd recommend signing up. Otherwise, your time and money are probably better spent at the pack/troop/crew/ship level. PS NESA must have some influence at National, as the special NESA Life Member Eagle knot was approved for wear last year.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Narraticong, I've been questioning NESA motives as well, lately. Of all my wanderings in the military, never detected any NESA groundswell. It is kind of weird. Of course, it could relate to to some of the viewpoints expressed in this thread.

Sounds rather...sedentary? Something they'd do at home? For the 100th anniversary of the BSA, how about a morse code contest on twitter (speed, accuracy?) I'd bet today's scouts could learn it pretty quick.

Resqman, you are right, when people don't wear the uniform properly, it reaffirms that the uniform is inferior. I don't think the ideal of uniforming is inferior; rather, the product available isn't up to par. When this happens, folks will circumvent the reg and do what works for them. I think this is true for the uniform reg itself. It's an administrative publication, after all.

Ah, the tyranny of a blank sheet of paper! The previous suggestions are all spot on. Fill in what you know for sure, like summer camp, and then reduce those blank spaces one at a time. Eagle 92, your post brought back a classic scout memory! Our SM took the TLC (troop leadership council as it was then called) camping in the mountains, public camp site, to plan for the next year. Pine forest, lots of trails to hike, etc. But we scouts stalled out on planning the next year. Just no spark. So the SM restricted us to the two picnic tables in the campsite till we finished planning the next year. The whole year, including each troop meeting. Couldn't get up from the table, even for the call of nature. In about an hour, we had our "homework" done and we were free again. Random second tier memory from that trip: public campsite, with a water spigot. We didn't bring our normal 5 gallon water cans--why bother? That weekend, the park service was doing maintenance on the water system, and nary a drop of water came from that spigot. So who had KP after Saturday night's dinner--fried ham and pineapple? Me, the newest patrol leader. And those bozo cooks used every utensil and pot in the patrol box. One big charred mess. What to do? We had a three gallon jug of kool-aid, about half full. I sat for two hours, washing all of those dishes with kool-aid, using a knife to scrap off the burnt-on mess those cooks left. Lovely. Now that I'm done chasing that rabbit, best wishes with the troop calendar. The scouts probably have never planned anything before in their life--this generation generally has everything planned for them, from preschool to college. They are smart and can handle it, it's just a skill set they've never had to exercise before. Crawl, walk, run.

acco40, I follow you completely. You have the liberty to display your degree, wear your beads, or not. You make deliberate choices, and err on the side of modesty. Other scouters with your credentials don't. I am championing the idea that each scouter have the liberty to decide, whether it's beads, eagle patch, or any thing else.

Resqman, I mentioned an elderly eagle scout in an earlier post, he earned it in the '30s, served as an adult scouter till he passed away in the '80s. He wore his eagle patch as an adult. Would you give him the same speech?

Lisa, I'm with you 100 percent on that point. Function lost out to form many, many years ago. The cottage industry of uniform doo dads boggles the mind. It satisfies the patch nerd community, but the average scout, and his family, pay the price. A simple, tough, durable uniform isn't rocket science. Find a scout shirt or pants from the fifties and you'll see. A few tweaks in style, make it in the US from the same material as yesteryear, and you'll have an instant hit that kids will want to wear. And can withstand bacon grease at the camporee breakfast time, hiking thru brush, etc. For whatever reason, I'm not aware that National will consider the past. Perhaps it all ties in with the veering away from adventure.

BDPT, it's that simple. And yet it's not. It's simple as long as the reg grants you and yours liberty. Then you are fine. When it restricts you but not someone else, Not so simple. And we aren't talking about military awards v. sunday school pins. We are talking about a little oval patch, about 2.5 inches tall, issued by BSA. Apparently, granting an adult scouter the liberty to wear that isn't so simple. Hence the debate.

Lisa, while uniforming is one objective of many in scouting, I don't view it as a checklist item ("okay, done, let's do something else") Actually, it's something that traditionally runs concurrent with the other objectives, that is, you experience the other objectives of scouting while wearing the uniform. The fact that folks don't want to wear it reflects poorly on National's ability to field a uniform that is functional and desireable. A good example is that "decorative neck thing" aka, the neckerchief. Many years ago, this was a full square, 32 inches by 32 inches, if memory serves. Fold it into a triangle, put a slide on it, and you are done. It was made of substantial material and perfect for first aid, bandana, hot pot grabber, something to sit on, and many other uses. However, over time, folks got more interested in how neat you could roll it up, etc., a classic case of form over function. So now we have neckerchiefs that are useless for any reason, including wear with the uniform. Again, a classic, functional, iconic uniform issue that has been overcome by poor adherence to tradition. Uniforming is not a burden, IF there are two elements: leadership that challenges and inspires, and having a uniform available that folks WANT to wear.

Acco40, in your last post, if we substituted "WB" and "beads" in place of "Eagle" and "badge" would you have the same conclusion? I agree that Eagle can be overdone. Good grief look at some of these Eagle ceremonies, with the lofty creeds, oaths, pledges, preambles, etc. Resembles a coronation! And the cottage industry of Eagle doo dads and congratulation form letters from everyone including "...the Dalai Lama himself...the flowing robes, the grace, the bald head--striking...." is quite extensive. However, the WB community, in general, in no way limits its bragging rights, as demonstrated by behavior, the wearing of WB belts, buckles, neckerchiefs, woggles, beads, etc. Depending on the council, and individual, there is no expiration date on their right to lord over the unwashed masses. Vigil Honor? About the same, depending on your lodge. So while I agree with toning down the Eagle Brag Machine, I take exception when adults do not feel they need to ease the volume on adult honors programs as well. (I don't consider the eagle pocket patch part of the brag machine.) Here's my main beef--we should have the liberty to decide. But to restrict one community, and allow liberty for another? Just runs against the grain. Completely random but related thought: I think our Lady Scouters should be allowed to wear their Gold Award on their BSA leaders uniform. They deserve the right to do so, or not, their call.

Eagledad, I think you really hit on something: inspiration. Though I'm 10K miles away from my Philmont trek photo, black and white one, I can still see in my mind's eye my SM sitting in the front row. He's got his Eagle patch on his left pocket. In the back row, an ASM who turned 18 some months before is wearing his Eagle patch. I looked up to both these scouters, and no one at the time thought ill of them wearing the patch or not. It just wasn't a big deal. As a camp staffer, late '70s, I served with an elderly scouter who was at camp every week. He earned Eagle in the '30s, and was an amazing hiker, speaker, inspirer of morale on rainy days, songleader, builder of old school scoutcraft items, etc. He had his own campsite and you could drop in any time, scout or scouter, and he'd have a cup of cocoa or coffee ready for you. He had a very elegant old Eagle patch, oval sewn on a square/cut edge, on his left pocket. Everyone admired this scouter, and just not for that ultra cool Eagle patch. Me, I grew up with the impression it was optional. I wouldn't wear mine myself, but I certainly support those who do--they should have the freedom, and liberty, to do so.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Gunny, couldn't agree more.

Scoutmaster52, I agree with you. Wouldn't wear my eagle patch myself, but I think adults should have the option. Unfortunately, there are a bunch of folks that view this as a heresy. True, this topic has been beat to death. The anti-eagle patch crowd's position can be summarized thusly: - The patch is for youth (as if this is written in stone) - The knot should be enough (in their opinion) - The uniform guide says adults must only wear the knot (as if this were holy writ) - You are stealing attention from the scouts by wearing the eagle patch (actually, no--you are stealing attention from the adult scouters who are jealous that you have one, and they don't) Here's my personal observation: if an adult espouses the anti-adult-eagle-patch viewpoint in person, nine times out of ten their uniform is usually covered with every patch, dangle, gee-gaw, doo-dad, and accouterment known to man. "Well, it's all authorized!" Yes, it is. Wear it all in good health. They would deprive you of wearing a patch you earned as a youth because of a uniform reg written by humans, and their opinion that wearing the eagle patch as an adult makes you some kind of Peter Pan, not willing to grow up, and that by magic, the day you turned 18, a higher power has determined It Would Be Wrong to wear it any more. However, they do not deny themselves when it comes to the wearing of uniform doo-dads. "It's authorized and the eagle patch isn't!" Yes, yes indeed. And to close on the edge of the limb: I think adult eagle scouts make some adult non-eagle scouters nervous. Or jealous. With 457 knots available for adults to earn, that red/white/blue knot is much easier to hide next to the Perfect Power Point Presentation Knot, etc. Really, who cares? The BSA, and its organizational objectives, would not be the least bit compromised if an adult wore an eagle patch, in any manner--legally, morally, ethically. But there is no support from the adult scouters at large to change the uniform reg, so it will stay the way it is for now. I say wear it, and double dog dare anyone to say a word about it.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Lisa, dressing properly for a meeting doesn't strike me as excessive. Scouts wear uniforms, and my point is they can do everything they need to do at a meeting in that uniform. It helps them understand how to take care of clothing, and knowing what to wear at appropriate times. Going camping is another matter. I'd recommend wearing whatever combo suits the scout and the troop and the parent's budget best. A couple hours a week isn't draconian, at least to me. In the Air Force, you can spot the guy or gal right away that isn't used to wearing a dress uniform. Doesn't fit right, they are uncomfortable, name tag and ribbons are askew, pant length too short, etc. Scouts, same-same. You raise an excellent point about common courtesies in society at large, very true. I certainly wouldn't recommend scouting turn into a Ms. Manners platform. I think we manage to sneak in enough manners at camp (full uniform at dinner, Philmont grace, serving others first, washing hands, etc) and other places to not make it obvious. But generally speaking, in the adult world, the points you outlined are a concern.

Reading the posts thus far, two thoughts come to mind: 1. We still don't have a uniform that folks consider appropriate for physical activity--steal the bacon, camping, hiking, cleaning up the quartermaster's store, selling hot dogs. This is a poke in the eye to the Uniform Gurus who designed these things, and a well deserved one I might add. 2. (Donning my fuddy duddy hat) We are training the scouts for future responsibility, right? Part of that is dressing appropriately, whether you "feel comfortable" or not. There's a time and a place for everything, and our casual dress ideals I think have gone too far, scouting or not. For example, it used to drive me nuts to see how the kids dressed for formal school dances when my oldest daughter was in high school. The girls are dressed to the nines, but the boys are bumming along in jeans and open collared shirts. As a career military guy, I see the results of this "take it easy dude" approach as well. Tell young folks that the uniform of the day is service dress or dress uniform? Good grief, the complaining is incredible. Folks want to wear utility uniforms even when they are working in hi-visibility or formal environment. Ties make them itch, they don't like ironing shirts, putting ribbons on correctly is too hard, shining shoes takes too long, etc. Or, when attending formal off-duty activities where the the invite prescribes what to wear (sports coat, business casual, etc)? Young folks will still show up dressed in tee shirts, sneakers and other stuff. Instant credibility/maturity check. Is it their fault? Yes, they are adults. But they have 20 years of "wear what you want honey" instilled in them, and they have to learn big boy/big girl appearance skills in a flash. Most learn, but it's bound to cost in terms of personal embarrasment. They just didn't know. You can see it in the corporate world too. I've been amazed at how slovenly men--in executive environments no less--look. It all boils down to credibility, and learning to put higher ideals ahead of personal comfort. So back to the issue at hand. Two hours a week? The kids can handle dressing like scouts, in whatever uniform they got. Believe it or not, you can play steal the bacon in a scout uniform (like a previous poster said, stash the neckerchief and other doo dads during the game). It's far easier to train the scouts on these issues now, rather than waiting for them to join the civilian work force, or the military, and learning how to dress formally short notice/under pressure. And if parents don't want their scouts to ruin that expensive uniform at a meeting? A very legit concern. Skip the centennial uniform altogether, or save it for COH, and buy a shirt and pair of pants from the sixties or fifties. They wear like iron, are dirt cheap, and several more scouts can wear them ala pass me down for years to come.

Unless the troop is having a scout building clean up, or doing an inventory in the quartermaster room, they should wear the fullest uniform they possess to each scout meeting. A meeting is what? Two hours a week? Plenty of other hours outside of scouting to slouch around in casual clothes.

Schiff, an awesome slate of nominees! Mike Rowe building a BSA team of spokesmen/women like that? Quite exciting to think about.

Eagle92, I think we are more in agreement than disagreement--I'm familiar with his resume, and Mike is all the things you mentioned, yet he is still down to earth, etc, as I outlined. If we have a Chief Scout who is comfortable in the business arena, and with the arts, yet can have a genuine appreciation for the working class citizens of America, that would be ideal. All the positive traits that both you and I pointed out would prevent him from being Chief Scout.

FScout, those subjects you mentioned all fall under the umbrella of management....