dan

Some suggestions I have to improve training. These comments are based on the SM fundamentals course I took 4 years ago and Wood Badge 2 years ago AND comments I read on this board. I have not seen the training syllabus to know if it was followed when I took training. When adults are playing as a patrol or troop during training, the trainers needs to stop and explain what is happening. During the PLC meeting, the trainer should stop and point out how the SM is at the PLC meeting, has not said anything, just sat and observed. The SM job should be before the meeting and after, guiding the SPL on what needs to be done, and after on how to improve the meeting. I believe that many adults see the trainer as an adult and not an adult playing as a scout, and they believe that as SM they need to act like the acting SPL did at training and not allow the SPL in the troop to actually run the meetings. This kind of coaching should be done whenever adults are playacting during training. Better yet if possible would be, have a JASM be the troop guides and SPL at training. That would shake a few people up that I know! This would be good thing! I do not believe that this play acting thing is a good way to train. Why is the BSA trying to train the adults leaders to be boy leaders? I train on computers, that is like me training someone to create a text document in DOS instead of using a word processor, they both will get the job done, one just must better than the other one. The training should be teaching us on how to be mentors not equals. Patrols Explanation on the chain of command. Explain that a patrol member should be going to his patrol leader with issues and questions and not the SPL. Need more discussion on how this teaches the PL leadership skills and tools. Explain how every patrol member should have a patrol job. Explain how patrols members should be selected by the patrols not adults. Explain why and how the patrol method is used at troop meeting and campouts. I see very few troops use the patrol methods; they seem to camp as one big patrol. The trainees need to be informed that if the troop is not using the patrol method they are doing the program a BIG disservice. No matter the size of the troop. New Scout Patrols This needs to be communicated in depth at SM fundamentals. Explain how they work, why, and how to select a good ASM to help guide the troop guide assigned to the patrol. Elections I see so many variations on how SPLs and other POR are elected or appointed. At SM fundamentals, it should be explained on how a SPL is to be elected and how he choices his team. EXPLAIN what Scout SPIRIT is! UNIFORMS I should not go here, but I cannot help myself. Why are Uniforms mandatory for Wood Badge training, but no other training sessions? What should be done at a troop meeting. Give me more information in a simple, clear and easy to understand format, tell the trainees who it should be. The trainer should be pointing out where the information is (books). This is just a few suggestion bottom line is the training is too generic. The trainee just seems to hint at everything, I say give it to me straight and do not sugar coat it! You can say some people do not just get it if you want, but I would give them the benefit of doubt, that most people want to get it, but the training needs to be improved. Validations of training, yes, it needs to be validations of the trainee. The reports should go back to the Training Chair, so they can see who is not training well, to help the trainer improve.

Bobwhite said "That's not altogether true." Is that like not completely atheist? Eamonn said "I'm not sure what you want?" I want to win the lottery! Guess I should purchase some tickets. Bob White said that the Scoutmaster does not have control over the troop, and I say they do. That is all that I want.

Once again I did not get my thoughts across. I do not think a scout not wanting to go on a hike is a sending home offense. Maybe this scout had something wrong with him, that he was not willing to share with anyone else. And he should not have to. On a campout last year another ASM came up to me and said we have a problem, we have a scout that does not want to do a skit, with his patrol, what are we going to do about this? The scout was a first year scout. The ASM and I also a ASM, and the scouts PL meet with the scout, I told him we cannot make him do anything he does not want to do. It would be nice if he would do a skit with his patrol, but we cannot make a scout do anything he does not wants to do. But, if he refuses to help his patrol with cooking, cleanup, etc., the only thing I could do would be to send him home. After a very long talk. The point that I was trying to make, is that I think that we need to inform all scouts, that they are in control of themselves at all times, as leaders we are not the bosses, nor are the scouts leaders.

We can NOT make a scout do anything he does not want to do, except to send him home. Every new scout should be told this.

Bob White said they have a responsibility to deliver the BSA's scouting program. Just being the SM does not put you in charge, or allow you to do anything you want. You answer to the Charter Organization's IH, COR, and CC, as well as to the local representatives of the BSA. My point was that there is no checks or balances. Most SM run a program that they see fit, 50 percent attendance or you do not advance. The Class A uniform is a scout shirt and orange zuba pants, SM picks patrols make up, mixed aged patrols, doing Merit Badges at a troop meetings only. and so on and so on.

Eagle1973 NO, I said you where bored because you already understood boy lead. If the training was kicked up a notch, you would get more out of it. BUT the other trainees would get nothing out of it, it would be over their head. but as long as nobody gets seriously killed. Is there any other kind of killed beside seriously?

This discussion is not going the way I thought it would. Let me try and summarize this thread to this point. Some people think that the training is good, some people think it is bad. Some people think that no matter what the training is some people will never get "it". Some people think its the CO fault. Some people think that training should be mandatory. Some people think a follow up test, to see what the trainee, got out of the course would be good. The training has not changed much in 30 years?! 1974 I thought the training was rewritten within the last 4 years, apparently the only thing that changed was to split SM Fundamentals into 2 courses. I still say that the training needs to be more forceful and tell the trainees how a troop will be ran and not just suggest at it and role play the boys roles. Lets at least give the ones not following the Program at chance to see the errors and correct them. Give me good information in a quick and easy to understand way. I had a great time a Wood Badge, I got more out of the presentations than I did as a adult, role playing as a scout. Eagle73 The training has to be geared to the lowest common denominator. Or only people who understand boy lead will get anything out of the training.

Fscouter Can you

SR540Beaver The majority of the post on this forum it seems that most people do not follow or possibly do not understand the program to follow it. So lets not try to place the blame on the district I am in. Most of the BSA training just hints at how it should be done, I believe that it needs to be stronger, and actually spell out how to follow the Methods. If the program is so easy to follow, how come so many units do not follow it? Do you believe that the majority of the CO, really have much input into the program? It seems that most post on this forum, posters are saying that the CO is just there to sign the recharter once a year.

SR540Beaver If the training does not get the point across, how can the program be followed? If seems like you are missing my point?

Bob White How many SM do you think would say that it is MY troop. My guess would be about 70%. SR540Beaver Who makes sure that the BSA program is being followed, most of the time no one! If you owned a company, would you accept a manager who is supposed to be at work from 9 AM to 5 PM, Monday thru Friday and wearing a suit to show up and work 10 AM to 2 PM, Tuesday thru Thursday in shorts and a tank top? Is my company making more money, growing with this employee? Does he do more work form 10 to 2 than most employees do in a week? Are my customers in love with him? Acc040 I have purchased a lobster sandwich at a McDonald's in Boston! Sorry guys I have not seen very many analogy that work with this scouting stuff! Bottom line, most posts here, seem to be saying that the CO wants nothing to do with the Unit which they "own". Who is watching the program? Mostly it is leaders like us, that look for the correct way to run the program and try to change the old guard, to follow the BSA program. As I have stated in the past, which most poster here do not agree with, is that the training is not strong enough to get the methods of the BSA across to the leaders.

Dutch Ovens do need to be cleaned. Put about 2 inches of water in them, boil them, with lid on, scrap if needed with a brass brush, dump out water, wipe out with a clean towel, reboil if still dirty, (if you burnt your meal or dessert) place back on coals or fire, re coat inside with oil, best to do this when the oven is warm, to allow the oil to soak into the pores, remove from heat and let cool. The only time I use a raised cake pan, is if I am baking biscuits or bread. Not sure how you could do most meals in a raised cake pan, when I cook in a dutch oven it is usually full to the top with food! I just use the Dutch Oven as a frying pan, usually brown the meat in it, drain a little of the grease and add the rest of the ingredients into the dutch oven.

BUT, As long as he is the SM, he gets to run the program as he see fit." Dan, maybe you should take a moment and re-think that response. Is that what you really meant to say? Your are correct, this is what I should have typed. As long as she/he is the SM, she/he gets to run the program as she/he sees fit. Where do you beleive I am incorrect on this statement? If the SM says that no scouts may sleep in a tent by themsleves, that is what the troop rule is. I am not saying I agree with it, it is just what I see within the little piece of the BSA world that I see.

Within the current SM handbook. It states that a uniform is not required to become a Scout. I believe that the BSA has left this vague enough so that families that can not really afford uniforms, are not left out of the scouting experiences. It is to bad that leaders have twisted this to mean that the uniform is not part of the BSA.

If you did the questioning respectfully and privately. Sure, any good leader would like to know how to improve, and would at least listen to what the other person had to say. BUT, As long as he is the SM, he gets to run the program as he see fit.

Herms I make it a point to try and not teach a scout any requirements. Occsinalinaly I have to, but when a scout comes up to me and ask to be signed off of a requirement, I call in a troop instructor, and usually walk away. Unless the instructor is new, than I stay and watch. When the instructor is done with the scout, they will come up to me and I sign the book. (I am trying to get the SM to allow the instructors to sign off of requirements). The instructor most likely has learned more than the trainee, but is that not the reason to have a boy teach other boys! This scout has not mastered this skill, but I have signed off of it, if the instructor, says he is ready. It is up to the troop to make sure that the scouts use these skills to master them. Meaning that campouts and meetings should be setup so the scouts use these skills in games or competitions.

Herms The requirements do not say to master the skills, it says to do it. Are you saying you would not sign off of a requirement until he has mastered the skill? Are you not adding to the requirements? Mrs. Smith If a scout is not fulfilling his POR, he should be told this, during the POR not afterwards, and our jobs as leaders are to help him improve.

What is give leadership to others? I have never been involved with a Eagle BOR. I took this to mean that during the Eagle project the Eagle candidate becomes a supervisor or foreman, directing others when work needs to be done and offering suggestions or help when something is not going well. I have been a helper at 9 Eagle projects and have only really saw 2 scouts really do what I thought was a good job of directing and not doing. Am I correct on give leadership to others? A few adults feel that I am a lazy person because I do not jump in when something needs to be done during these projects, I usually go ask the scout a question to try to get them to direct someone (me) to do the task, most other adults just jump in and do it. But after being there for about 6 hours, I also start jumping in and doing, just to get it done. How about the council saying no work to be done on a Eagle project, unless directed by the scout?

would you like some cheese? You must have a boat load of cheese, to go with all of the whine you have!

scoutmastertroop194 Will you inform the scout and his mom that they can appeal this decision, through the council, than through national? I remember at least 3 different times that this has been discussed here, each time the council or national has sided with the scout.

Don't Know what happened to it. But it is one of your better ones!

Welcome back Fuzzy Bear, I have missed your stories!

SMRon Good Luck Now go work your ticket!(This message has been edited by dan)

SMRon In your first post you wrote. "two other ASM's and 5 boys are talking about leaving this would be at least 1/4th of our Scouts" Than you said a MC has resigned. What are the 2 (or is it 3 total) other ASM planning on doing? What are you planning on doing? My point I am trying to make, is that if people vote with their feet, it may change the COR mind. Not, that I would go back to that unit. Do all of the parents of the remaining scouts know this rule? I think they should. The CO has the right to limit leaders, but the leaders also have rights to join different units or start a new unit.

I am not Ed but I say with the promise of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$