Abel Magwitch

I love twocubdad's sarcasm - that they are still waiting for their 1987 commissioner visit. (but I know that there is truth in what you say). My unit will continue to ignore the jte as we have ignored the quality unit nonsense, (its nonsense in my district and council). We know that the form will be filled out for us by our "do nothing for the youth" DE so he can again get his quality district plaque. My unit will ignore any requests by our professional staff as long as our Scouts do not get the promised service from the district and council. Finally, my district is coming up on two years with no district commissioner. Our district is made up of a few hand picked people, hand picked by the DE who you never see and cannot correspond with unless through the DE who will decide if your correspondence is worthy. Yep, my council still runs like this yet there is a nice revolving door of pros coming and getting promoted due the the "quality" of the council. Basement, I would ignore your DE. What's he going to do? prevent your unit from rechartering? That would mean one less quality unit in his district and hurt his chances of making his criticals. Tell him you will cooperate once the council cooperates and starts to serve the youth of your unit first.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

I am curious - do you have a new SE? Were does your council membership stand? What was it last year?

Interesting post. I can see several dilemmas here. Some observations: The BSA leaves their policy on the application somewhat vague. In this day and age of illegal immigrants, you would think that the BSA would have made it clear on the application whether they accepted or did not accept illegal aliens. The word reside has come up. There are in fact illegal immigrants that own their own houses in the USA. So yes, an illegal immigrant can in fact reside in the good ole USA. Here is just one of many links to back up this claim. http://realty4all.com/buy-homes/how-are-illegal-aliens-able-to-buy-homes But back to the application. If I had to make a guess, I would have to say that if the BSA knows it can make more money (even by having illegal immigrants registering and paying their registration fee), it will do so. Who cares if the Assistant Scoutmaster is an illegal immigrant as long as the BSA gets its membership fee. I would love the author of this post to contact nation and see if national will even respond to his question. Ask the BSA for clarification. Write to Scouting magazine. Then repost whether you received a reply or not. Or perhaps one of the many active professionals who read the forums would like to post the answer and save the readers a lot of time. Finally, there are some posts here that focus on the illegal immigrant only. Illegal aliens are criminals. Let me add this other perspective Why does this country have so many undocumented immigrants? IMHO its because there are plenty of business owners willing to hire them illegally. These business owners are making out like bandits on their taxes and are making some pretty hefty profits by not having to pay their illegal employees decent wage. If there was nobody willing to illegally hire illegal immigrants, I do not believe that this country would be in this situation. But I don't hear that much outcry concerning the holding accountable of the tax cheating businesses who offer employment to illegal immigrants. Greed is a powerful thing. It is greed which perpetuates our country's illegal immigrant dilemma.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Hi Oak Tree, you are right, the message was meant for Gary. I don't disagree with him; in fact I believe that Gary has the right idea. Unfortunately, it won't work. We volunteers have been fooled by the pros in believing that we have a say. The pros like when COR's are simply figureheads. The majority of COR's I never see. But the CAC situation truly shows what happens when COR's and volunteer leaders try to take the council back - they cannot. Volunteers are manipulated to do the bidding of corporate Scouting. Should a volunteer start making trouble for the professional agenda, they are quickly shunned or removed. Speaking for my council, the executive board is made up of mostly business types who are not in anyway involved in the Scouting program. Perhaps they may have been Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts in the long past, but they are certainly not involved with the current youth. They don't visit the camp; they don't know what problems the volunteer leaders are having. One only gets to know who they are if you go to the annual dinner and get a program. That is the only time and place they are listed hence the majority of folks in the volunteer program have no idea who or even what they are. My council has in the past sold two of its camps. The selling of the camp was a done deal before anyone knew that there were even intentions of selling the camps. I have read the news story that RememberSchiff posted. It appears that the selling of this canoe base was a done deal before any volunteers knew about it. It is a shame that council's are selling their camps. When I read stories about other councils selling their camps, sometimes you read that some long time volunteer had his Scouting membership revoked because he spoke out against it. I recall a story about Richard Knaul from a New York council who spoke out about a camp being sold and the fact that the SE wanted to spend money to renovate the Scout office. He was dismissed. Scouting has certainly changed since I was a Scout. (This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Oak Tree, COR's even in force don't really have any control over what the pros want to do. Camp owasippe of the Chicago council is a prime example. Council wanted to sell the camp. Supporters of the camp rallied the troops. COR's came out in force to vote down the new executive board. They did so in a 5 to 1 vote. They had another vote a month later and the same thing happened, the board was voted down by the volunteers with voting power. Then an intersting thing happened. A pro from national came with a some top secret rule that states if a board is voted down twice, that national can appoint the board. Which they did - the same board that the volunteers voted down twice. The BSA as a volunteer movement is an illusion. The pros run the show. They are in control. They handpick their board and get a head nod yes vote during the annual business meeting and the board approves whatever the SE wants. There are several good posts from former pros who have told it like it is. They have been trained getting the volunteers to go along with what they want. I am a COR.

Yes,and those 35 units were traditional troops. The council did not need them. The council was not interested in troops. The council was more interested in school units and learning for life. Interestingly enough, even with the losses of troops over the past 25 years, the council membership amazingly increased.

SeattlePioneer, please look at Basementdweller's last post. Are you condoning the council and district's actions as he laid it out? I would love to hear your responses to his post. I have watched as over 35 troops die over the past 25 years while plenty of pros received their bonuses and promotions and crony district and council leadership received their awards of merit and silver beavers for running the district fos or popcorn drive. My district supposedly has 35 units and has received the quality district award every year now for the past several years yet the district has no district commissioner, no assistant district chairs. What we do have is a district chairman who was appointed by the professional district director that you never see and are not allowed to contact unless you go through the dd or de, an fos chair, a popcorn chair and and advancement chair. Believe it or not, that's it. None of the remaining troops need the district or council. All the troops are doing their own thing.

"Personally I think cutting off communication with the district and council is a mistake that will only make things worse. Someone from the pack or chartered organization should be keeping in touch. The Committee Chair or Chartered Organization Rep would be the logical people. I'm afraid this isn't going to end well".... You are entitled to your opinion. Obviously Seattle, you don't have these kinds of problems in your council or district. You are lucky. What has happened to Basementdweller is tragic. It is inexcusable. We need volunteers like Basementdweller.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Sad, very sad. Another dedicated Scouter who has had enough with corporate scouting. Sorry for the way you have been treated by your district and council "leadership" Basementdweller. If you are ever up my way, there is a fine cigar shop in my neighborhood.

5yearscouter answers the question. Believe me, it happens. And not just with recruiting. DE's will fill out and sign quality unit forms to make their quality district criticals. A few years back, our troop treasurer stopped getting bank statements. Then she received a bank statement with a different name and troop on it sent to her address. Upon researching at the bank, it was found that the account name had changed. Our troop's statements were ending up at a different address. When we got the addresses fixed, it was then noticed that there was a subtle change to the name of the account. Originally the account was Boy Scout Troop xxx at the blank church in c/o of treasurer at her address. The new account read Boy Scout Troop xxx at blank council. We inquired who changed the account name. All the young banker could tell us was when it changed. He helped us rename the account to Boy Scout troop xxx doing business as blank church. The bank account was attached directly to the sponsoring institution. Now here is the interesting catch - during the time the account changed its name, the vice president of that bank was the council president. Seems that all Scouting accounts at that particular bank went through a name change attaching the accounts to the council. Funny how these things sometimes work. We have had no problems with our Troop account since. That SE has moved on to bigger things. A little thing like getting a signature doesn't stop those in management from doing what they want to do.

Totally unacceptable. The DE needs to go. I really feel for you Basementdweller. I can relate. In my council, one of the tactics used by the professional staff to get numbers is to have recruitment nights at schools and libraries, specifically for Cub Scouts. (they are not interested in Boy Scout recruiting). Kids are immediately signed up for Cub Scouts and are told to pay their meager pro-rated fee. And that's it. The kid is now a registered member without ever visiting a Pack. Then the parents are given information on several Packs in the area. Imagine the surprise of the Cub Master when a new kid shows up at a Pack meeting and says he is a member of that Pack. Then imagine the surprise of the parents when they are told by the Cub Master what the annual dues are. Then many those parents will say "we did not realize there was more to pay. We were never told about dues. We were told that we had already paid the fee". Then that new Cub Scout will never visit a Pack again. The parents will not take the time to get their $5 back. But to the DE, he has met his critical. The kid is a registered Cub Scout until the end of the year regardless if he ever actually joins an individual Pack. Business as usual for the paid Scouters. (This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

There are similar posts on this forum where a Troop is restricted where they can camp. I remember one Scouter who has posted on the forums called her SE a bully. Why? Because he was threatening not to approve tour permits because the unit did not participate in popcorn sales. They also wanted to go out of council for summer camp, but the threat was made that a tour permit would be denied. So yes, it is unfortunate, but there are folks in the Scouting world who abuse their power to increase membership numbers; get their criticals done; forge names on quality unit awards to make quality district or council; demand additional training beyond what is necessary or the unit will not be allowed to recharter; whatever is necessary to get that promotion. And I have had plenty of experience with a good ole boy volunteer district and council leadership who will do whatever they are told by their DE, DD and SE. And those who play their game get rewarded with new knots to wear. (This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

I find that woodbadge is a fantastic raising venture for the council.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

my district served my unit by taking the time to fill out and sign quality unit applications without anyone in the unit having to use a pen. now that's service!(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

The following used to be published on this official BSA website. The links from this page have stopped working. http://www.bsalegal.org/litigation-222.asp Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scoutings values and beliefs. As for finding this in a BSA publication you can buy off the shelf at the Scout store, I do not believe you will find it. Regardless, the policy is still enforced by the BSA. And Scouters are still being dismissed. There are BSA publications, rules and by laws that are kept at the Scout office usually in the SE's office. Perhaps it is in those publications that these policies are written and kept from view from the general volunteer ranks. Perhaps all one has to do is to request from your SE to view them. (This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

I know this is old, but here is one source: I also remember reading something on bsa.legal.org but it bsa.legal has been updated recently. BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA National Office 1325 Walnut Hill Lane P.O. Box 152079, Irving, Texas 75015-2079 214-580-2000 June 24, 1991 SUBJECT: ATHEISM, GIRLS AND HOMOSEXUALITY From: J. Carey Keane, National Director of Relationships/Marketing To: Regional Directors Area Directors Scout Executives Division Directors As you know, the BSA currently is involved in various legal issues; issues that include atheism, girls in Scouting and homosexuality. The media has been covering these rather extensively, with the usual debate of pros and cons. Since many of you have been, and may continue to be, approached by local media, we thought it would be beneficial to provide a comprehensive package of information. The attached includes: - Overall suggestions on responding to the media and to the public, as well as a pamphlet on "Unacceptables" that can be used to "bridge" discussions to the positive things the BSA is doing to resolve issues. - Position statements and questions and answers on: - Duty to God - Girls in Scouting - Homosexuality If you need further information, please contact Blake Lewis at Edeknan Worldwide at (214) 520-3555 or Jeff Sacks, Division Director, External Communications at (214) 580-2271. POSITION STATEMENT HOMOSEXUALITY AND THE BSA For more than 80 years, the Boy Scouts of America has brought the moral values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law to American boys, helping them to achieve the objectives of Scouting. The Boy Scouts of America also places strong emphasis on traditional family values as being necessary components of a strong, healthy society. The Scouting program is designed to be a shared, family experience. We believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirements in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout Law that a Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not provide a desirable role model for Scouts. Because of these beliefs, the Boy Scouts of America does not accept homosexuals as members or as leaders, whether in volunteer or professional capacities. Our position on this issue is based solely upon our desire to provide the appropriate environment and role models which reflect Scouting's values and beliefs. As a private membership organization, we believe our right to determine the qualifications of our members and leaders is protected by the Constitution of the United States. Jssd 6/6/91 (This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Senseless, tragic, sad. The world has lost a Scouting treasure.

http://www.washington.edu/news/archive/apps/dailyclips/scraped/PI_2009-01-29_BSA.html http://blog.seattlepi.com/environment/2009/02/10/dnr-investigates-boy-scout-logging-practices/ http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Scouting-rife-with-cozy-ties-1298989.php/ "Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do." "A tree is a tree. How many more do you have to look at?" (This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Shortridge, you arguments seem to be bouncing all over the place You state that camp staff pay is abysmal, and then in your next post you write about the summer camp staff being paid a reasonable wage. So which is it? Abysmal or reasonable? It certainly cannot be both. I never spoke of having a volunteer staff at summer camp. On the contrary, what I have a problem with is council employees being called a venture crew. How can you have any unit troop, crew or pack made up of council employees? (by the way, my council may only hire 20 to 30 summer camp staff members and they only serve for 4 to 5 weeks. You must be part of an exceptionally large council). And finally, imho, there is no reason to take an OA chapter and turn it into a venture unit. Are you a professional?

Send it right to Mazzuca. "Don't let it became a salaried organization: keep it a voluntary movement of patriotic service. Lord Robert Baden-Powell in his last message to the vounteer leaders.

Shortridge, My comment about being on the payroll is a principle thing. I have problems when the council pays a stipend to some and yet they still want to be called volunteers. The paraprofessional concept where council pays (no matter how little) a person to be a scoutmaster, cubmaster, commissioner, a youth member. I understand that the stipend paid to summer camp staff members is ridiculously low. (I do feel that some of the youth staff members are truly exploited for the work they do for such little pay. I have always wondered how my council gets away with child labor laws for how much work they get out of the 14 and 15 year olds. I am a volunteer. This is supposed to be a volunteer program. Paying people to be volunteers to me means that people do not want to volunteer. But volunteering is the heart of our program is it not? I know for a fact that all the members, both youth and adult that are hired for summer camp are added to membership counts. I have seen the printouts showing the summer camp crew and their membership counts added to the overall council membership counts. What is wrong is that many of those summer camp crew members are also being counted a second time in their home troops. And some of those are even being counted a third time in their fictitious school unit. There is no reason to form these temporary crews other than for some pro to add points to their scorecard as Eamonn states. Prior to these paper summer camp crews, summer camp staff members wore staff t-shirts during the day and their personal Scout uniforms at dinner. They were proud to wear their own troop uniforms. I am amazed at how many ways a professional can come up with ways to boost their membership numbers. And yet with all the membership my council supposedly has, the answer from council why they dont follow policies and procedures is because they have no money.

Prior to the new professional camp director, there was plenty of open times for Scouts to have fun. We generally told our Scouts to go for no more that three merit badges during the week. The reason being was we want our Scouts to have fun at camp rather than spending all their time working on merit badges. The new camp director came to us from one of our neighboring councils. That council had just shut down their council camp. (I do see the council merger on the horizon). This professional camp director brought with him the traditions of that camp. He in no way would keep any of our camp traditions. He also made major changes to the camp schedule. Open times to shoot rifles, climb, swim, boat, climb etc were now all combined into a simgle time frame for 45 minutes between 3:00 and 3:45. That was the only time that Scouts would have to have fun. Scouts now have to choose where they will spend their single 45 minute open time. I wrote about this under my post, summer camp woes. In my opinion, the council owes many Scouts refunds for a poor program. The council broke its promises to the Scouts. For the millions the council declares on its tax returns for program, (more than a million is just professional salaries), the council in my opinion is robbing the Scouts blind. My kids go to church camp aside from Boy Scout summer camp. The church camp is a week long and costs the same as BSA summer camp. The difference is that the program at church camp is far superior to my council's summer camp program. There is adequate staff, there is adequate food, there is adequate fun. In my council, it is simply mismanagement. Mismanagement of funds, too many professionals on the payroll, council not being prepared for the four weeks of summer camp. Like I have said before - in my council, there are supposed to tens of thousands of youth being served. There have been new professionals hired to manage our abundance of youth members that unfortunately are never seen. The program stinks in my council. But those are the cards dealt. We cannot simply pick up are troop and move to another council. Slowly the word is getting out to traditional Scouters of the shenanigans happening.

SR540Beaver nails it. My council as well has a summer camp crew made up of a staff that exists for 5 weeks. It is also listed on the find a unit site on the national site. Just another paper unit to give credit for someone's critical. And to top it off, it is a venture crew where all the members are on the payroll. Not really a volunteer unit right down to its youth members. Oh, the reason for the venture uniform is because there are girls on the summer camp staff. Can't be a troop with girls.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

A few years back, the troop did a skit called the enlargening machine. For those who don't know this skit, here is how it goes: One of our younger Scouts was the professor. He was being interviewed by a reporter about his amazing machine. The machine consisted of two Scouts holding a tarp. Behind the tarp was another Scout who had bike horns and other noise makers. He also had the props. The professor demonstrated his machine to the reporter. A lone Scout walks by carrying a small mess kit pan. The professor tells him to throw it into the machine. He does. All of a sudden the machine is making all kinds of noise and then a big frying pan flys over the tarp. The Scout and reporter are amazed. This goes on, various Scouts carring various things get enlargened by the machine. Then a lady comes walking by carrying her baby. (A scout dressed up carrying a doll). All of a sudden the lady trips and the baby goes sailing into the machine. The machine makes all kinds of noise for a long time, then silence. The professor, reporter and lady are panicking. The Scouts holding the tarp drop the tarp. There stands our biggest scout wearing a depends and a baby bonnet and a big pacifier. He immediately goes running up to the camp director and says daddy! The camp director starts to run and the big baby chases after him. Very fun skit. Got it on video. Good times at campfires = good memories.

Papadaddy, Your council web site (i think it's your council's website) does not have a link to your council's annual report. I would be curious - how many youth does your council serve?