SiouxRanger

Bingo! The only way to insure councils won't sell it off some time in the future is to never let councils have legal control. Period. And further, never permit anyone who has ever been a professional scout serve as a trustee or board member, and prohibit any direct donations or sales of assets has no to a council or any entity controlled by a council. It should always be the council pays the trust. If the council has no use for the camp at some point, the trust should provide for a "gift over" to some other entity, not the council or council affiliated, so that the council has no incentive to upset the donor's plan and acquire control. And, beware the doctrine of cy pres. The cy pres doctrine is a principle of law that courts use to save a charitable trust from failing when a charitable objective is originally or later becomes impossible or impracticable to fulfill. IRS (.gov) This doctrine would allow a judge to "determine" (technically, "find") that Clarence the farmer who donated the land to the trust for use by scouts "really intended that if things got dicey, the land ought to go to the council." So, for example, the trust burns through its endowment, needs higher rent from the council to maintain the camp, and the council refuses to pay higher rent. The trust is on the verge of financial collapse and the council rides in as the white knight to rescue the camp by seeking ownership of it. Thereby giving the council legal control and the power to sell it. Of course, Clarence is deceased, perhaps even Clarence's kids are deceased-no one is left to speak for Clarence and his intent. Well, the council's attorneys are speaking for Clarence. Clarence's kids, and likely no other entity has the legal right to become involved in such a lawsuit-called "standing"-but there might be someone who can become involved; it depends on the precise wording of the trust. The trust needs to be drafted such that the doctrine of cy pres never becomes a legal issue. Every future possible path, foreseeable or not, needs to be provided for, either specific rules for specific conditions or events, or a generic result should be specified for the unforeseeable, such as, "…and in all other events, the trustees shall deed the land to my descendants in equal shares…," or "to charity xyzzy…."

I totally agree. The ready-at-hand ad hoc rescue team of scouts were instructed by the person in distress to abandon the situation? Seriously. NEVER leave anyone behind, even if not in distress. (Makeshift stretcher anyone?) And just read the directions that accompany the map. First, the names of the two mountains have been switched in the description of where one is headed at the junction at the end of the .6 mile leg. Nice. (No, not really.) And then the junction on the return trip, between the 2.3 mile leg and the .6 mile leg is not mentioned at all. Go left there and you are headed up Mt. Flume again. Yeah, they should recognize the junction…but if dark, raining and howling wind… (Hey, one serious error had already been made-a wrong turn is just frosting…)

I had to look it up. A National program to allow the formation of new units with 3 adults and 3 youth. Essentially a "quick start" path to unit formation-minimal start-up requirements/machinery. No committee requirement; Council custodial account. Council acts as the unit's committee. Initially intended to be a Council "chartered" unit, all with an eye to growing into a traditional chartered organization unit.

In my reading of WWII materials/research, I recall that studies were done to determine WHY so many fighter pilots died after successfully getting out of their planes and safely into the English Channel. Heat loss-through the back of the neck and base of the skull. Life preservers were redesigned to elevate the neck and skull from the cold waters of the English Channel. Huge life-saving improvement. So, yes, cool one's neck and entire head if can be done. Soak your hat-let it evaporate. Evaporation is what cools. High humidity limits evaporation, and limits cooling. Breeze/air movement increases evaporation.

The proverbial canary in the coal mine. As an advisor on a you-ordered-a-burro trek, never having had one with a crew as a Ranger, but having heard plenty of horror stories, I was not enthused, but it is the scouts' trek. All went well, until about half a mile West of Head of Dean. The burro stopped dead, stock still on the trail. Would not budge. It quickly dawned on me that something was going on. I told the scouts not to move. Sure enough, I located about a 3 foot rattlesnake about 5 feet from the burro under a little bush and with a bit of gentle encouragement from my walking stick, the rattlesnake moved down the slope and the burro eased up and moved forward. How the burro was aware of the snake, I don't know as it was very hard to see. I just reviewed some of the archived Philmont records, guidebooks, etc., and there is little material on how to deal with rattlesnakes. Not even mentioned in the section of Dangers On The Trail. I don't recall any training as a Ranger regarding rattlesnakes. I've had about 5 back country encounters with rattlesnakes at Philmont. Once, moving a log for a seat to our campfire, right in our campsite, we heard a rattler. Froze, and then the two of us dropped the log simultaneously while jumping backwards. I captured that snake and took him out a couple of hundred yards. Not the smartest thing, us picking up the log without kicking it a couple of times first. The bigger lesson is that before taking one's pack off rest, kick the logs, etc, before sitting down. Walked past one on a ledge about shoulder height without even seeing it. Another adult pointed it out to me. The other encounters were snakes spotted on the trail-just give them some room and be patient.

This whole mess is an eternal shame on Boy Scouting. And it pains me. The best thing that I was ever involved in, Scouting, and the only thing I was ever interested in as a youth. And the thing that totally ruined the life of my best friend. Only 50+ years after his abuse did he tell me. He, a Phd in Geophysics, crippled by his abuse and alcohol. And just how long does the stench linger? Well, when introduced to serve as a board member of the local Red Cross unit, 40 years ago, like 1980, we (us new board members) were told that the "Red Cross NEVER charged WWI soldiers for donuts in World War I." Now, just drink that in. Savor it. (Rolling it over one's tongue does not improve the flavor.) Really? Donuts-donuts are a concern? Us, new board members in 1980, were being advised (by a Red Cross employee spokesperson) about the actions of the Red Cross regarding DONUTS during World War I? 1914-1918. So where does that leave BSA National in the wake of its Bankruptcy over child sexual abuse claims? One can hardly equate donuts to child sexual abuse. (It offends me even to type that line.) Does bankruptcy "absorb" the stench? Replies after 2124 will tell the tale.

So, in my time, from Dan Beard to Kit Carson Museum at Rayado, over 42 miles, with a 28± pound pack, I ran 11 hours 24 minutes, which at the time was 1 hour 13 minutes faster than the prior record.

And where, here on this forum, is the voice (spokesperson) of National??? From Admiral Halsey: "The world wants to know.

Hmmm... Expect someone to pick up and tow away the Troop records trailer. (Don't bother to get a receipt-trust me on this.) Deliveries of cupcakes… Fireworks… Retirement parties… Changes in gravity have been reported, but not documented scientifically…

And I do not doubt you for one second. What concerns me is that this point is likely missed by far too many. And if the risks of convoying are high, then National should make a much better effort to emphasize them. National has done a fine job emphasizing the risks of people riding in the beds of pickup trucks. That has been a no-no since my early days in 1969-perhaps even earlier before my camp staff days. I never see that violated, and I am at camp at least a day a month. Whether the Tour Permit is currently required or not, the accident statistics behind the statement in the Tour Permit: "If more than one vehicle is used to transport our group, we will establish rendezvous points at the start of each day and not attempt to have drivers closely follow the group vehicle in front of them." -have not changed. If statistics showed that convoying increased the risk of accident in convoying group travel at the time that that statement was included in the Tour Permit, with the demise of the Tour Permit, the risk remains the same. Essentially, Tour Permit or not, the danger of convoying remains high and no one should do it. By way of example: I caution: "Tom, be careful with the chainsaw-it could cut off your foot." If I no longer caution Tom, who continues to use the chainsaw, does the risk of cutting off his foot decrease? No. Tom no longer gets a warning, that is all. Curiously, by eliminating the Tour Permit, risk adverse National, has ELIMINATED one level of warning to Scouters about the danger of convoying. And by so doing, has actually INCREASED the risk to National's secondary insurer. Hmmmm.

I have one of those date stamps by every chair where I work and a stamp pad. Everything gets dated. (And the time also.) A client gives me two conflicting directions to me regarding dispositions in their Will. Very important that I can document which direction was LAST. All of my documents bear revision dates, so I can tell which document was "last." "Tom gets $400,000." Then later, client directs "Bill gets the $400,000." If I can't prove which client direction was "last" client's estate pays either Tom or Bill $400,000 and I pay the other $400,000. I don't charge "attorney's fees"-I charge "insurance premiums." If I can't prove I followed my client's directions, I am liable, or at least embroiled in a morass of debate and accusations likely to spoil years of life. National's slack adherence to dating protocols leaves room for huge ambiguities. Ambiguity = RISK. National, being so risk adverse, why would it not adhere to standard practices in the various industries that produce documents that change over time? Like surveys. Or building plans. Engineering drawings. All of the surveys I've ever seen have revision date history and initials of the folks responsible. State statues are smothered with overwhelming evolutionary history. An internet search on a topic will produce hits to a plethora of documents and if they are not dated, it is a fool's errand to determine which is the most current guideline to be followed. And, can anyone shed light on why there is NO National voice on this forum responding to the excellent discussion here?

But I know not how to rebuild an eye lost to trauma, nor repair a broken bone, nor restore breath to a crushed body. I DO know how to discuss safety in advance of horrific loss. Extremism in defense of Safety is no Vice.

And for mixing discussions of nonsense and safety. I am known for, and sometimes derided for, being a a "safety nut." And the safety issue of convoying entirely escaped me.

Excellent point. A bona fide data point to evaluate the wisdom of convoying. I've seen that in funeral processions with 20 or 30 cars. Running stop signs en masse, etc. I once saw a strange pattern of streaming traffic coming off a side road onto a state highway (very rural)-all running the stop sign. No hearse in view, and given the layout and topography, had there been a hearse, it should have been in view, but apparently it was so far ahead of the procession as to be out of sight. No vehicles had funeral running flags on the hoods, nor headlights on… All confusing to me. No traffic control-officers. At my father-in-law's funeral procession not so long ago, in Tennessee, police officers accompanied the procession and even blocked off major roads for a few minutes. And, AND, all oncoming vehicles pulled off the road in a show of tribute. Never seen that before. Funeral processions are just one subset of "vehicle convoy scenarios." But it does demonstrate how the normal traffic rules get distorted (totally ignored) in certain circumstances. And how other drivers, not aware that other vehicles who all consider themselves "in a convoy," have no idea of the "convoy mentality" and may well end up entangled in the convoy. To my eternal regret, regarding the rural funeral procession, I got intermixed in the funeral procession. To avoid that, I would have had to come to a complete stop on a major state route until about 20 cars ran the stop sign to keep up with the funeral procession. I made the right decision from a safety viewpoint, but I still feel like an intruder into a private moment. My troop ALWAYS convoyed, for all of my 24 years there, and I led the convoy for all those years. NO ONE ever questioned the practice. AND THAT is the problem. "Never questioned." "We've always done it this way." In my opinion, that is never a good answer. Well, in my case, and my failure, the question was never asked…I just trod the road always taken. "Two roads diverged into a yellow wood…" -Frost Richard Feynman was unable to resolve a physics problem by 7%. All his work led him to an answer that was 7% off accepted theoretical physics. And so, Feynman reviewed ALL the prior academic papers regarding the issue. And found them to be 7% OFF. Feynman was right. Feynman was right all along. Feynman is a Nobel Prize winner. "Simply agreeing" may be accepting the inaccurate conclusions of others. "A policy, maybe not on paper…" So, if not on paper, where do we find the Convouy "policy" of the US wide national organization of the BSA? Convoying and not driving defensively and not obeying the laws are not mutually exclusive. One can convoy and follow all the rules of traffic law. (The question is whether the participants of the convoy are instructed on how to do that-and THAT is a good point.) In my experience, I anticipated lights changing to red, traffic loads, etc.…adjusted speed accordingly. We never had a traffic related issue. We planned our routes to maximize travel on major highways, interstates, with few access points to minimize traffic issues. Essentially a statement: "I'll tell you what to think/believe…" I have a simple philosophy: "I don't ask that anyone believe or think (accept my beliefs) and I don't accept any compulsion that I believe this of anyone else." "seasoned age" Well, I'm over 70. (and my Wood Badge resume is 4 pages long, and most positions I've held in Scouting are at least 10 years, many over 20, (most simultaneously) at Council, District, Troop, and Pack level). How does one mix discussions of "safety" with "nonsense?" My sole adult/parent life has been involved with shepherding my sons through Scouting to Eagle. I have been the lead of my sons' troop and have NEVER heard of convoying issues.

Following up on this promise to inquire, I spoke with a superbly capable Cub and Troop leader, on Saturday, an electrical engineer for a fortune 50 corporation. A sharp and impressive individual, calm, measured, and balanced in his reaction to everything. Because he is confident in his understanding of circumstances and ability to respond appropriately. A role model to though he is 20 years younger. Said he'd never heard of an anti convoy policy. This month's Round Table in my district (no reason given) has been cancelled, but I plan to attend the next in August and present a written questionnaire to determine the level of unit leader awareness of the anti-convoy policy. And so we shall see, and so I shall report.

No need to apologize. You see things others don't yet, but should. I call that "Vision." I am intensely interested in the practical steps you see that can be taken in a scout troop setting, given the scarcity of replacement prospects (at this point, I still see those numbers as a limiting condition). Educate me! I'd dare say that many units (and districts) would find your suggestions helpful. ABOUT PRACTICAL STEPS: Twenty-five years ago when my first child joined our troop, each parent was given a questionnaire asking about skills, interests, hobbies, equipment (trucks, trailers, etc…) which helped current troop leadership match incoming parents to leadership positions or at least to supportive roles. (Many hands make light work…) That questionnaire served as a practical means, from an institutional perspective, to develop a database for the identification of folks for future service and to match their interest/skills/equipment to unit needs. Maybe one of the practical means you have in mind. I come from a professional office of one. So, I have nearly zero experience with organizational personnel dynamics. I guess or theorize. My vision of these matters is like looking through a straw. Not too helpful. On the other hand, decades ago I suggested to the district executives that if they wanted to monitor "unit health" they should have each unit submit to them, the district executives: 1. An organizational chart (on a pre-printed form with write-in the-boxes-with-names for the essential positions). 2. A calendar for the unit year (showing meetings and outings). My thinking was that if a unit did not have one or both of those, the essential structure of leadership and program had not been done. NO RESPONSE. I tried.

I'm not really following the distinction you see, or how it works in practice. In our small troop, most willing adults have several troop jobs and there are only a few other adult prospects who are not interested or willing. The result is that there are virtually NO prospects to be one's replacement let alone that replacement's replacement. The concept of "two deep replacementship" requires 3 willing and capable adults for each unit position. That just has never happened. I would prefer a "farm system" where the holder of a position has two successors in the wings. The senior replacement handling a little heavier duties than the junior replacement. Each easing into greater responsibility and "learning the ropes" as they go, but alas, we've never had sufficient adults to implement such a system. We have never had that luxury at our troop. Even at district level (where I was District Chairperson and where more adults are active), I had no luck. Rarely, did individuals just step up and volunteer. And, the source of a prospective pool of replacements largely depends on the number of crossover cubs (or the occasional youth joining a troop outside the crossover process). One year, we had 2 or 3 more adults attend troop meetings than scouts (counting adults whose scout had aged out). Yet, several adults who attended every meeting made no effort, nor indicated any interest helping out, and resisted every suggestion of need. Then one of those reluctant adults suddenly took on several major aspects of the program and did a fine job. (Yeah, and I have no reason why). People are complicated.

I came to the realization decades ago that the first step upon assuming a role in Scouting was to start looking for a successor. I thought that accomplishing that could take several years. It soon became apparent that my efforts would have scant success in that in a troop of 15 scouts, or so, with two pairs of brothers, leaving 13 pairs of parents as prospects, and subtracting me and the other 3 or 4 parents already active, and subtracting most of the moms who are welcome but show little interest, that left about 8 "eligible/prospective" successors. Of those maybe one or two had been scouts…who had the time, the interest, the skills… You get the idea-the pool of prospects was very small. I'm in my fourth year of "retirement" from being Troop Treasurer, still serving as treasurer…I agreed to stay on for 2 years after my youngest aged out…that was 6 years ago, and no prospects in sight. I've had no better luck at district level positions.

Considering National has all manner of training available on line, the obvious gap are NAM presentations. Which just happen to be the most current National policy and therefore the most important to disseminate widely. But Noooooo! “Truth, is the most precious thing we have. Economise it.” --Mark Twain

And well, while awaiting shipping on my soap box, Kelty external frame packs tend to have aluminum frames which are relatively light. And that is fine. Dana Design pack frames are significantly more solid and heavy. I own both. I'd have carried a Kelty Super Tioga at Philmont if I had not lent it out to a Scout of limited means, and if I were not carrying significant crew safety gear which increased my pack to about 65 lbs. The Dana Design pack hip belt and fiberglass wand system of transferring load from the frame to the hip belt is simply genius.

I think that you are right. Internal frame packs were designed for climbers, day or weekend campers/hikers, but not serious cold weather camping (where bulky gear is needed) nor extended hiking (Philmont Treks, anything over 2 or 3 days). Kelty Tiogas and Super Tiogas are very lightweight and superb external frame packs. Dana Designs (the old school versions on eBay) are Backpacker Magazine Award winners. Specifically, the K-2 Long Bed. There are other versions and virtually any external frame older Dana Designs pack is a gem. All of them were originally retailed at about $300. Get the right frame size and hip belt size, both are in regular and large, can be interchanged, and are highly adjustable. Whew-just sold my soapbox on eBay, so I'll have to shut up.

Precisely and absolutely true.

Without doubt. For all the rest, one word: "Tufte."

I misstated my practices. If any vehicle fell behind for some reason, I slowed down until all caught up. Convoying as we practiced it was slower than a single vehicle driving at legal limits. Slowing for others to catch up, however, caused me some concern, as I am not comfortable driving below the speed of other traffic. More-a lot more. For over 24 years, I've attended every troop meeting (less 3 or 4), every campout, troop activity, and summer camp (less 3 or 4), attended Roundtables, held District and Council level positions, been Chair of cub summer camps, cub weekend campouts, and been heavily involved in monthly work days at the local camp, NCAP team member (and I read the entire binder of rules), Wood Badge, etc. AND UNTIL MY FIRST POST on this topic, I NEVER HEARD of a prohibition on convoying to scouting events. So, the first senior attorney partner I worked for, when some legal matter got into a "sticky wicket" would look at me and ask, "How did we get into this BOX?" Truly, yes. Why? And I ask that question on convoying. "Why have I, so heavily involved in Scouting, not only with my kids working through the program, but also being a unit leader for Cubs and Scouts, District Chairperson and chair of other District camping events, Council Board Member, NCAP team member, member of Council subcommittees with a number of currently serving scoutmasters, and having spent dozens of lunches with the scoutmaster members of the camp work crew…having taken all the training National suggests/requires me to take…WHY have I not heard of the prohibition on convoying?" So, I will canvass our troop leaders and ask if they have ever heard of such a prohibition and advise them that they are not to caravan. Additionally, that they should make sure that each vehicle has a list of cell phone numbers of all the other vehicles headed to the event, so that if a problem arises they can stay in contact and get help. Additionally, I think it prudent that all vehicles follow the same route. So, if a vehicle breaks down, it is somewhere ahead, or behind, and easy to get to. That a vehicle might be 20 miles off the route taken by other vehicles creates chaos.

That is the hard part. Never had that happen. I had to anticipate light changes and a green light in the distance, well, I'd slow down to make sure we all had to stop. I am not saying it was easy-it was not. Very stressful. Sometimes the light was so short that the whole convoy did not make it through and we'd pull onto the shoulder for the rest to catch up. I'd only do that if very low traffic, etc. If not, then I'd proceed at just at legal limit so folks could catch up.