InquisitiveScouter

45 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

Committee Chair

Key 3 Delegate

Unit Advancement Chair

Ok, CC is the only registered position there.  The others are functionals assigned through the Organizational Manager in my.scouting.

25 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

You are correct (and they were untruthful). They are NOT registered as both in my.scouting.org.

Thanks! 

Ok, curious... what are they registered for?

Just now, Maboot38 said:

 

Anyone can take an application to Council.  You just need the COR signature on it.  The current person need have no role in that...

31 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

COR was engaged yesterday and he has asked me who I propose to replace the CC.

ALL parents and scouters agree this is a problem. I've personally spoken to at least eight. All agree this is a problem. I am unaware of any parent that does NOT agree.

It's painful. This person isn't a bad person, they're just unlike anyone I've encountered before. I'm not afraid of confrontation, but even confrontation doesn't seem to resolve it. I'm hoping the COR is able to facilitate a change, because yes, I cannot properly lead the SPLs (and therefore the troop) in these circumstances and will depart if things remain as they are. Last thing I want to do is let the kids down, so I truly pray that we can fix this. The last scoutmaster left for the same reason.

Oh, and what position are they registered for in my.scouting.org?  (NOT Scoutbook... Scoutbook is scoutbook.scouting.org)  Your Registrar would not have assigned them to a Committee Position and an ASM position.

Your my.scouting login should be the same as your Scoutbook login credentials, unless you have used your Google to sign in.

29 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

COR was engaged yesterday and he has asked me who I propose to replace the CC.

ALL parents and scouters agree this is a problem. I've personally spoken to at least eight. All agree this is a problem. I am unaware of any parent that does NOT agree.

It's painful. This person isn't a bad person, they're just unlike anyone I've encountered before. I'm not afraid of confrontation, but even confrontation doesn't seem to resolve it. I'm hoping the COR is able to facilitate a change, because yes, I cannot properly lead the SPLs (and therefore the troop) in these circumstances and will depart if things remain as they are. Last thing I want to do is let the kids down, so I truly pray that we can fix this. The last scoutmaster left for the same reason.

Acknowledged.

Sounds like you have also had a personal discussion with them and it was not fruitful.  That train may have left the station, but...

Do you think another personal discussion would help?  If yes, focus on the person's behavior and how it is affecting the unit.  Explain that one of the repercussions of taking on too many roles is that of creating a single point of failure.  That is, if something were to happen to them (which no one can control), and because replacing them would require getting many people to step up and fill the roles, then having them do so much is exposing the unit to suffer MORE.  Another way of putting it is that this person, with all the wonderful things they do, is creating a strategic vulnerability for your Troop.  They should understand why this is an unacceptable situation, and agree to let others take on those roles... others whoa re already willing to step up.

You said if they take on CC only, that would be great, but, given the scope of what you have described so far, I personally do not believe this person would confine themselves to that role.  Your reality may be different...

If you and others in the Troop believe you have reached a point of no return, then the only call is removal.  Do not do this until you identify someone (and get their agreement) to take on the new CC role.

Identify the CC replacement.  Get the COR to approve (it's their call).  The COR should be the one telling the person about the change of positions.  Sort of an "Thank you for your service to the Troop!  We have decided to give others a chance to lead.  Effective immediately, you are no longer the Committee Chair." kind of thing.

Fill out an application for the new CC. and run it through the system.

This will cause some hurt feelings initially. Be Prepared to deal with disgruntlement. Follow @Jameson76's advice above, and have cake.

It might help if you identify a Committee Position or ASM role (not both!) for the person to focus on to help the Troop.  If they refuse, cut them loose.  Expect them to leave the Troop.  This might be the best for you unit in the long run.

You are experiencing the most painful thing about Scouting...  Adults ruin it!

[If all goes amicably, fine.  But, if there is any kind of scene in front of Scouts (recommend you do this when Scouts are not present) , or any inappropriate behavior, have COR ask them to leave the premises or be reported for trespassing.  Make sure the COR is willing to follow through with that by calling police to remove them, should it come to that.  Notify your Scout Executive if you have to do this.  Obviously, if anything worse happens... threats, property damage, violence... then you call authorities in ASAP.]

1 minute ago, Maboot38 said:

If they were to JUST be Committee Chair, that would be just fine. They are incapable of staying in their lane though.

Imagine an extremely dominating helicopter parent, coming into a troop and doing everything for the scouts, telling everyone where and when you will camp, straining noodles for kids, carrying gear for kids, rolling sleeping bags for kids...taking scoutmaster info packets at camporees and assuming the default leadership role, getting angry when asked to give said info to the scoutmaster, being extremely loud constantly. Babying the scouts (following them around handing out hand wipes, providing them with snacks even, and pretty much not allowing any learning to take place by allowing them to fail and learn...... Imagine all that, plus someone who is so unsafe driving that other parents refuse to allow their kids to ride with this person, someone who insists on handling all kids medication, but then screams at the top of their lungs "Kevin!!! Come get your ADHD meds!!!" with no regard for privacy. Imagine being entirely un-coachable and unchanging on any of the above behaviors.....and now imagine that person is ALSO your committee chair, advancement chair, training chair, and insists on being an assistant scoutmaster, even thought he scoutmaster never wanted them to be an ASM.

These are my challenges. So the motivation of my post was to find out if, at the very lease, I could say "actually, despite you insisting, you CANNOT be an ASM...according to BSA rules". That's what I was looking for, and it looks like we've found it on page 14. The rest...well I'm hoping the COR will be tired of quitting Scoutmasters and make the correct change here.  

On the upside....our Scouts are AWESOME, and I love working with them. They just deserve better.

Understood.

Most likely, pointing out rules isn't going to curb their behavior.

Sounds like you'll need an intervention, of sorts.

How engaged is your Chartered Organization Representative, and do you know who your Unit Commissioner and District Executive are?

How many other like-minded volunteers/parents have you discussed this with?

Are you considering leaving the unit if things aren't resolved?

2 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

OK, thanks for the clarification. 

But maybe I shouldn't have mentioned scoutbook at all. The point of my inquiry was whether or not a Scouter was allowed to hold all those positions. I'm much less interested in the technical workings of Scoutbook in this context.

So, if this person were to limit themselves to one function, which do you think would be most value-added to the unit?

For any position you pick, I could point out a list of responsibilities, most of which are likely NOT being taken care of, or done well, at the moment in your unit.

Most volunteers I work with simply do not have the time required to dive deep into a position and do it to a level of excellence.  Many do a passable job, and that has to be good enough... A good handful don't do much at all, nor care to learn what it takes to make a Scouting unit function well.  These are the ones who need training and motivation, or need to be moved out of the position...

18 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

I think Key 3 delegate just means I am a key three.

No, you should check who is listed in the Functional Roles under Organization Manager in my.scouting.

You, may be able to tweak those...

So, as an Assistant Scoutmaster, this person works for you (Scoutmaster), and as Scoutmaster, you answer to the Committee Chair.

You see the conundrum there?

3 hours ago, Maboot38 said:

So the question is, is a Scouter even ALLOWED to hold all these positions at the same time?

Short answer: NO!

Now, your Scoutbook roster isn't the official document.

Before we go too far down the rabbit hole, may I ask what roles you have under your profile in my.scouting.org ??

Longer answer: You cannot be a CC and Assistant SM in the same unit.  Having the "Key 3 Delegate" title in Scoutbook makes no sense, because, as CC, they are already Key 3.   Regarding the other Committee positions, it begs this question: how many Scouts are in the Troop?

You can see @DuctTape has quoted you chapter and verse above, per your request.

Finally, reality often does not care what our regulations have to say 😜

I often say, the Scouting program is a mile wide, and, if you choose a specific area, you can go a mile deep as well.

Ranks and requirements are the breadth... merit badges, awards, and further training (Kodiak, NYLT, NAYLE, etc) are the depth...

For adults, you can go even deeper in the training opportunities offered in Aquatics, Shooting Sports, High Adventure, Outdoor Ethics, STEM, etc, etc, etc...

I wholeheartedly concur with @OaklandAndy, in that most adult volunteers are simply ignorant of the opportunities Scouting offers for all ages.

2 hours ago, SSScout said:

Watch that .  BSA has gotten into trouble using that motto/slogan. It is copyrighted by  High Lights magazine.   

BSA wants us to use "GAME WITH A PURPOSE" 

Meh

1 minute ago, Jameson76 said:

True - oh so true.  When we are out and about during the closing etc leadership always tries to bring up that the state parks, WMA's, National Forest, National Battlefields etc are preserved areas and it takes support to keep them.  We mention that as Scouts we may have have camped / hike at the same place.  We need to do what we can to help preserve and promote the public lands.

Outdoor Code is more than 27 words and Leave No Trace needs to apply any time you are out in the woods.  BSA should be the experts in this and SMEs (Subject Matter Experts).

Bring back a Bird Study as Eagle required!  Or make it one of a group... Bird/Mammal/Insect/Reptile and Amphibian/Fish and Wildlife Mgmt/Forestry/etc etc etc

Drop Cit in Society ASAP...

30 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

We do outdoors good, that is the laboratory, stick with that.

And we are missing a great opportunity to be THE organization that puts outdoor stewardship as a core value while we are in the outdoors.  We dabble in it... to get requirements signed off...

14 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

With the MBO focus now no one EVER goes and talks with successful units.  The unit has 75% retention, Scouts stay until they age out, 30 nights camping per year, engaged adults, nope, no need to go see what they are doing.  We've got popcorn, camp cards, FOS to worry about.  Hey, come to roundtable for no discernible reason or value.

Hey, wait... are we in the same council?

Just looked at the training stats for our council/district.  Only 68% of unit leaders have finished their position required training.  Or, from the other angle,  32%, council-wide, have not completed their basic position training.  There's a good place to start...

We are the only unit with 100% trained adults in our district.  Council-wide, we are the largest of 8 units with 100% trained.  Gold JTE for the past 7 years... (so >= 85% retention year over year, >= 9 short term outings per annum, >=70% of Troop at summer camp, etc. etc. etc.)

 The only interest we have ever gotten from council, in my time here, is to ask why we weren't having FOS presentations in our unit, and to ask why we did not attend our local Summer Camp. (the answer is because the PLC decided to go to other camps, and the committee voted each year not to have FOS presentations)  Council did not like those answers from me the Scoutmaster...  not my decision in either arena...  shows a complete lack of unit organization/unit program understanding to hold those against any SM.  smh

7 minutes ago, SSScout said:

See? This is what happens when the adults take over. It becomes award oriented rather than fun oriented.  

We make earning the awards fun 😜 

Fun with a purpose.

The purpose is to experience the personal growth (and other Scouting methods) reached while pursuing the award.  The award is simply a "tangible" milestone marking the intangibles we experience along the way...

Do they have the "attachment" rates for Scouts BSA awards?

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Now that I think about it, there is one organizational change I'd like to see - the name of the WOSM NSO in the US. It doesn't make sense, and it's super awkward to imagine the gear with "Boy Scouts of America" in giant font on it on girl scouts. It's awkward enough to stick girls in uniforms that say "Boy Scouts of America". That made my husband very mad actually. Just Scouts of America or Scouts USA, something like that, makes sense.

I get that it would feel bittersweet at best. (Cue the people who are really angry about girls in BSA here.) But long-term... How long are we going to cling to naming ourselves after policies that no longer exist?

Great idea, but it is all about the money...

Girl Scouts of the USA (part of WAGGS) is simply not going to give up an $800 million dollar revenue stream to either 1) merge with the Boy Scouts of America (part of WOSM) and become one WOSM NSO, or 2) accept "Scouts of America, or Scouts USA"  as a trademark infringement which confuses their business model and target audience (although they lost that lawsuit...)

https://www.wsj.com/video/series/the-economics-of/from-thin-mints-to-tagalongs-how-cookies-fuel-girl-scouts-success/B4839193-1AB9-4CCE-B106-C2BAEE40E912

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/boy-scouts-defeat-girl-scouts-trademark-lawsuit-over-co-ed-scouting-2022-04-07/

https://scoutingwire.org/girl-scouts-of-the-united-states-of-america-gsusa-and-boy-scouts-of-america-bsa-have-entered-into-an-agreement-to-end-trademark-infringement-litigation/#:~:text=July 25%2C 2022-,Girl Scouts of the United States of America (GSUSA) and,respective missions to serve youth.

Finally, although in reality, a "Congressional Charter" doesn't mean squat, BSA clings to this designation as a basis to be the only legitimate Scouting organization for boys in the USA.  (Including the dog and pony show of an annual report to Congress required by the charter.) Changing their name might mean giving up their Congressional Charter, and therefore, some perceived legitimacy to monopolize/dominate the market. 

28 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Sadly, true. It's political in it's nature. So it's emotional. Not logical.

Barry

LOL, thought I was a connoisseur of the obscure... had not heard of Elbonia... guess I have a lot to learn, yet. 

https://dilbert.fandom.com/wiki/Elbonia

Just now, qwazse said:

Any tribe … like Picts, Goths, Angles, Celts, or Saxons? Non of those alive today were involved in those actions/events.

Reductio ad absurdum 😜 Love it.

2 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

When an organization's focus is on Quantity; Quality suffers.

When the focus is on Quality; Quantity will also improve. 

 

Just summarizing our esteemed colleagues' aforementioned experiences.

Once again... @DuctTape for National Commissioner!!

On 1/29/2024 at 10:39 AM, curious_scouter said:

Ugh.  If the councils were able to process paperwork quickly, this would all be fine.  Our recharter was due Nov 16, 2023 and district/council practically flogged the volunteers in units to get in on time.  They even sent out an email calling out units who had not submitted on time by name!  

Yet recharter is still in process two months later by council.  In fact, we recently hand-delivered a new adult application to council as we need this adult at a campout this month and they need to be registered to do that.  We were told then they are only about 25% through recharter processing!  It could take another 4 months to complete.  How on earth can it take 2-6 months to process the most fundamental function we ask from our "professionals" and it's okay?  Especially when they hold the volunteers at units to such a standard on getting things in on time?

My entire unit currently shows as "not on official unit roster" in Scoutbook because of the lag in recharter processing.  New Scouts coming into my unit "off the street" or via Cubs crossing over will not even show up on my roster and in Scoutbook for months.  MONTHS. 

So, if they want to put these new (very practical and wise) rules in place - fine.  But... you have to get good at paperwork.  It all hinges on paperwork and processes and I can't put the program on hold for 6 months while we wait on paperwork. 

@curious_scouter, it wasn't your recharter paperwork that was due on 16 Nov, it was your recharter PAYMENT that was due!! 😜 Never forget... it is all about the money.  The service (even four months later) to youth is just a collateral benefit of having your cash. <sarc off>

I do support returning funerary items and remains, if the tribal representatives request, as these were most likely removed from burial sites.  I also support museums and educational organizations (universities, etc.) asking a particular tribe for permission to keep and display those items and remains in a respectful way, so that everyone could learn about the culture and customs of their people.

17 hours ago, Armymutt said:

I wonder how you repatriate artifacts to extinct tribes. 

@Armymutt, you don't...

On 1/27/2024 at 7:05 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

It would be nice if the district or council set up a parallel activity for scouts while their parent is being trained.

Any onsite training, round table, etc. is a tough sell to my wife. Most parents either need to be working, taking care of the house, or spending time with their kids. The only reason I'm talking about Scouts online with internet friends right now is because everyone in my household is still sleeping.

During our district Klondike Derby, I offered a one hour training class to adults, through five sessions during the day, while their Scouts were making the rounds to their stations.  Got 21 adult students, and great feedback on offering it while they were already in attendance of another event that did not require their participation or constant supervision...

(in a warm place, btw ;P)

@CLC848, welcome!

On 1/24/2024 at 10:26 AM, CLC848 said:

Scouts are supposed to do a critique at their meeting(s) following each campout and Scribe is to document but execution seems to be spotty and no one could find anything written.

This is an extremely common malady in any organization.  And this malady is compounded by the not-yet-formed prefrontal cortexes of the people you are dealing with.

Here's a good read to set the stage: https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/what-is-executive-function-and-how-does-it-relate-to-child-development/

On 1/24/2024 at 10:26 AM, CLC848 said:

Looking for ideas that work for others to better capture the Scouts' input in a "Scout-friendly" environment.

Here are some observations along with ideas to "better capture" and hopefully create a culture to introduce corrections.  

1.  People often think they are being "negative" when they point out things that need correction.  This is why "roses, thorns, and buds", aka "Start, Stop, Continue" (SSC) offers a better mindset to ID trends in an organization.  Use this methodology to have Scouts say something positive and something of a vision for future success, along with identifying something that went wrong.  And, from a cognitive perspective, if you put the "something" that went wrong in the middle, it makes a bitter pill easier to swallow.  That is, when identifying issues, never start with, and never end with the thing that went wrong.  Also, challenge Scouts to come up with all three BEFORE they start talking.  You have to model this behavior a few times to get it going:  "Start:  Scouts, we should start checking our Troop/Patrol First Aid Kit regularly, preferably before a camping trip.  When we needed some items this weekend, they had not been replenished in the kit.   Stop:  Something on this trip that must stop is for Scouts to not bring their Scout Essentials.  Being prepared for the weather is very important.  When it rained, a high percentage of our Scouts did not have rain gear and got wet.  Because we had some lower temperatures, some Scouts started to get chilly, and we had to stop our activity to prevent them getting hypothermia.  Continue: Scouts, a great thing I saw on this camping trip was the great teamwork of the Panther Patrol.  They were always working together to get their tasks done, like cooking, cleaning, and breaking camp.  Good job, Panthers!"

- The idea here is simply to identify trends... not to pose solutions or create tasks to solve the issues.  That is done later at a PLC...

2.  Don't let SSC turn into a gripe session.  And don't make it so long that Scouts do not want to participate.  You do not need input from every single person who was on the trip.  A good way to get input is by Patrol.  Tell the patrols to work together to come up with an SSC input.  Then, one person from the Patrol will present their input during the SSC session.  It is important to do this at the end of the trip.  We usually do this after our Scouts' Own, and just before we load up the vehicles to travel home.  We have tried it before Scouts' Own, and after we return to the our meeting place, and both times seemed to detract from the session.  Finally, as far as capturing... ask the Patrols to text their SSC to the Troop Scribe.  If you try to have a Troop Scribe scrambling to capture ideas during the session, somethings things get lost in translation/transcription. (Also, do not have adults give input during the SSC.  This is the quickest way to shut Scouts down.  Get input from adults later, privately.  Yes, an adult should model the behavior to get it going, but once the Scouts "get it", let them go with it.  This creates a sense of ownership in their minds.  And yes, you will see things they will not... resist the temptation to pontificate.  It is not YOUR TROOP! )

3.  Have the SPL ask the Patrols to think about the SSC items on the way home, and propose ideas, solutions, or ways to continue a practice in the culture of the Troop.  The Patrol Leader then brings these solution ideas to the next PLC to address.  We do not have a Troop Meeting the week after a camping trip.  That next meeting night is always a PLC, and one of the agenda items is to address the SSC from the trip.  The PLC can then identify and task potential solutions or ways to cement specific habits into the Troop.  Tasks must be assigned to an individual or a Patrol.  For example the PLC may say, "The Quartermaster must check the Troop first aid kit the meeting before an outing to ensure we have all the items in the Patrol/Troop First Aid Kit checklist on page 109 in the Scout Handbook.  The QM will report to the ASPL when this is complete.  QM is responsible to do, and ASPL is responsible to follow up and check that it was done."  (Notice how this is kind of a SMART Goal?)

4.  The most difficult part of this process is the "follow-through" or the evaluation.  As an adult leader, you have the role of teaching and mentoring Scouts in how to create a "culture of continuous process improvement."  After the PLC, our youth do not follow-up very well to track that tasks are done.  Reading the Minutes from the last PLC helps.  (Notice, this means you have to have Minutes 😜 )  As SM, I would remind the SPL of tasks their PLC have identified, and challenge the SPL to follow through to make sure tasks are completed.  This is often a short conversation before a Troop Meeting starts.  You mentor, and the SPL is on the hook to make sure his Troop gets things done.  As SM, I would also ask ASMs to mentor the PL on the same... if a Patrol had a task identified, a brief conversation to remind between the ASM and PL is all that is necessary.  Help the PL understand that one of his youth leaders will be checking on his completion of that task. 

5.  Finally, as an adult, hold your tongue unless it is an item related to health and safety for your Scouts.

Hope this helps you turn "Lessons Repeated" into "Lessons Learned"...