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Posts posted by InquisitiveScouter

  1. 19 hours ago, ThenNow said:

    5. If BSA is dismantled, will scouting cease to exist? By the words of many, many of you Scouters, it's a resounding no. In that case, are kids safer in thousands of independent groups without a high level of institutional oversight, including the rigorous input of BSA CSA survivors? I'm concerned that it would not be. 


    18 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

    Number 5 is a brilliant observation.  My feeling is that Scouting will continue in America.  If no BSA, another organization could emerge but likely there will be many separate scouting programs that will make youth protection less likely to be strictly followed. I would argue that a comprehensive single program is best able to enforce strict youth protection policies.

    I would contend that kids are less safe in either situation, without the constant vigilance of adults who are watching out for them.

    Policies do not equal vigilance...that is part of the thinking that got us here in the first place.

    As a kid who was groomed and abused, I know what the predator looks and acts like.  He is the nicest person in the world.  He cares for your kids.  He is friendly.  He goes out of his way to help them and you.  He is biding his time and waiting for the opportunity.  What I'd really like to know is, how long does he wait before he gives up and moves on to a new target?  And does he stalk several prey at once?

    Here's a good synopsis of the process...


    Look at the first three behaviors...these align somewhat with what a good Scout leader actually does as far as recruiting Scouts, gaining trust of Scouts and parents, and filling needs for adventure, organization, advancement, etc.

    It's where number four comes in that we need vigilance.  Vigilance by parents, leaders, and Scouts.  BSA National doesn't do squat in this area.  They really don't come into the picture until after an abuse has occurred and been reported.  BSA has NO insight into unit programs or what goes on at the unit level.  So, in essence, there are a multitude of separate programs underway right now.

    YPT begins at home.  It should be pervasive in schools.  It should be an attitude and mindset that we all have (all people...not just all Scouters).

    I never, ever, left one of my kids alone with anyone other than a family member.  In some families, even that is a risk...  And I told my kids when they were younger, that they were never to be alone with an adult unless Mom or Dad said it was OK.

    You would not believe how many parents now trust me implicitly with their Scouts.  Parents would be OK with having me pick up and drop off their kids for Scouting events.  They would be fine with dropping them off at my house for merit badges or Scout skills.  But I do not, under any circumstances, allow a situation where I am alone with someone else's kid.  I maintain the vigil on myself, and it surprises me how many parents would willingly put their kids into my hands, and who offer that as a matter of convenience on a routine basis.

    It's like the message just doesn't get through...  In spite of parents having to read and go through YPT stuff with their Scouts.  I sincerely doubt most read it.

    An abuser can easily mimic my behavior and concern for Scouts.

    Watch out for the ones who seek to be alone with a Scout!  To me, that is the key, critical behavior that is the red flag.

    When we go camping, I want as many adults around as possible.  The more eyes, the better.   The more collective training we have, the better.

    We had a saying in the military, when figuring out how to defeat our adversaries...

    You must learn to think like the wolf before you can kill the wolf. 

    Most people will not put themselves into the thought process of the predator.  I did, and I do.  How does someone want to get my Scouts?  Act like me, and then isolate them.

    That will not happen on my watch.

    • Like 1
    • Upvote 3
  2. No trailer works for patrol outings...  two adults, 5 to 8 Scouts...maybe one extra car (a parent) for transpo...

    For Troop outings...nope.

    We have 57 Scouts now (in 7 Patrols) Our average on outings is about 30-35 Scouts.  The average family's vehicle can hold about five passengers, so we need 6 or 7 vehicles just to get the bodies there.  The average family car cannot hold passengers and gear for six people (including the driver, when they are camping.)

    Most families do not own trucks or SUVs in our area...

    Our Troop owns two gear trailers: one large for Troop outings (and storage) (donated long ago), one small for medium sized outings (and storage) (purchased recently with Troop funds).

    We recently changed COs.  The CO does not have space for a shed for troop gear storage, so we purchased the smaller trailer to act as a "mobile shed" of sorts.  The used trailer costed us less than a shed would have.  And now we have the capability to send out medium sized trips of several patrols to different locations.

    Our practice is that all trailers must be single axle, under 3000 lbs, so as not to require brakes on the trailer, inspections (in our state), and vehicles with higher towing capacity and wiring for a trailer brake controller.  The trailers can be towed with most SUVs and just about any truck.  We have at least 10 families that can tow (about 20% of Troop).

    These solutions make sense for our unit, and the program that our Scouts have chosen.  These are the basics for us.


    • Upvote 3
  3. Neat!

    Yes, these tankers were made primarily to refuel our Cold War bomber fleet.

    At the end of the Cold War, we began using them for contingencies and conflicts like Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.  The tanker fleet is a crown jewel in our national ability to project power around the world.

    The saying is NKAWTG!!  Nobody kicks a## without tanker gas

    • Upvote 1
  4. 2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

    Many members of our Troop went to a National Guard base 128th air refueling wing to tour and earn aviation merit badge (the airplanes were outdoors).  Next weekend, we have a backpacking trip ... only 5 scouts out of 44 signed up.  We have more adults interested than scouts...

    Even if you only have two Scouts, go!!

    And, did you learn anything interesting about the KC-135R??  (I flew them 😝)

    • Upvote 2
  5. As SM, I saw it as my role to help (NOTE: "help") recruit new ASMs, and then oversee their training and development.  When my self-imposed term limit was coming up, I made a recommendation to the Committee of the top three who I thought would be the best for the Troop.  I reminded the CC it was their job to recruit the new SM, discuss and get "advice and consent" from the committee, and then get COR approval of the change (as they would be the one signing the application). [It depends on the mood of our registrar as to whether we have to fill out a new application or not...check with your registrar...your mileage will vary 😜 ]

    Sadly, none of the three would take the position.  We wound up will a suboptimal volunteer, and it has hurt our unit over the past year.  As things have spiraled downwards (because I say "No" to things that are not my responsibility), everyone sees the decline, and now one of the three will take over at the beginning of summer.



    • Upvote 1
  6. We camped in a local county park and did rock climbing.  (Our local climbing gym has group rates.)

    Other than climbing for about five hours Saturday afternoon, lights out at 10, and a Scout's Own on Sunday morning, we had no scheduled events.  Just hanging around in hammocks, building fires, cooking meals, etc.  For those Scouts who wished to work on other advancement, older Scouts and adults were available for requirements.

    We were all outdoors, as the weather was absolutely beautiful.  About half of our Scouts slept under the stars...no tents.  (Sorry, but there is no such thing a "camping" in a cabin :) )

    We had to have several attempts at washing dishes, with a review of proper dishwashing outlined in the Scout Handbook...


    • Upvote 3
  7. 9 hours ago, yknot said:

    I'm sure you know that goes without saying. I'm not sure what your point is there. But it's only in scouts where you are banned or muzzled or labeled fun police for simply reading, knowing, and following the policies and procedures manual, which in BSA's case is G2SS. In any other youth organization it's not a battle to get people to follow it. If you don't follow it, you generally get tossed. BSA has a 100 year history with youth and it still has major disconnects when it comes to keeping them safe is my point. 

    Ahhh...I see what you are saying...I misunderstood what you were aiming at...

    Agreed...I even got skewered by National (and specifically Michael Hohnson) for pointing out inconsistencies and holes in the wording and implementation of policies.

    As I said in another post somewhere, I have never seen another org "shoot the messenger" as much as BSA.

    • Upvote 2
  8. 2 minutes ago, yknot said:


    This is where I am stuck. If we know gross buffoonery and safety issues are STILL occurring after being sued into bankrutpcy, why are we trying so hard to save this organization? Can it be saved? A small part of me thinks it's possible, and that's why I'm still here, but why should any volunteer have to fight so hard to keep kids safe in a 100 year old youth organization? 

    If BSA goes away, we can still do Scouting.  And you should always be fighting hard to keep kids safe...no matter the organization or its age.

    • Upvote 1
  9. 5 minutes ago, jcousino said:


    Got to be careful

    I got told that i use to much of the councils time having to deals with my  safety concerns  and youth management issues and i have been banded  from any activities outside of my unit.






    I am in the same boat...lol

    But I still file incident reports whenever any of our youth attend district/council events, and there is gross buffoonery going on...

    (OA and NYLT)

  10. 6 minutes ago, SSScout said:

    I hope and pray your Scouts choose their parents wisely.... 

    If only...  this is one of the greatest tragedies of life 😜

    My children chose an absolutely wonderful mother!!  Father?...meh  🙄

    • Upvote 1
  11. 7 minutes ago, yknot said:

    Think about what scouters do with other peoples' children and where they do it with them. It doesn't take much to prove willful negligence on the part of a scouter or a CO in the event a child is injured on an outing. Weather is a big one. Scouters who proudly, publicly, and recklessly claim they never cancel a camp out...  

    Agreed.  That is why I am such a jerk about every BSA policy, planning, swim checks, permission slips, medical forms, etc., etc., etc.  There is a fairly high price (in time required) for due diligence.

    Scouts who do not abide by instructions and discipline do not last long in our Troop.  If you do not do as you are told (in matters of health and safety), then I refuse to take you into the woods...

    Firm but fair...

    Due diligence begins before you even depart for the trip.

    So, @yknot have you ever been sued for something Scouting related?

  12. 1 minute ago, yknot said:

    That's partly why I'm no longer a scout leader. As far as forming a board, if it is a board formed of local families, then you are the board. If someone wants to sue, they are not suing a valued community institution with long term stature like a church or service organization, which might give them pause, they are suing a random group of adults. 

    They'd still be suing a non-profit with no assets (except camping gear and a paltry bank account)... officers of those organizations cannot be held liable for things other than what was listed above, which is tantamount to criminal behavior anyway...


    • Upvote 1
  13. 2 minutes ago, yknot said:

    As I've advised before, anyone can sue you for anything and even if you are proven blameless, you can spend a lot of time dealing with a very stressful situation, having to hire a lawyer, attending hearings, and taking time off from work until it's resolved.

    Agreed...which begs the question, why even be a Scout leader, if this is the case?

  14. 37 minutes ago, jcousino said:

    Bad choice as this makes the signers at  risk for any  claims (any cause). I would never ask any one to be willing to place their home at risk for scouting.


    The risk of personal criminal or civil liability on the part of individual nonprofit board members is small but difficult to quantify. It is important to note that exercising poor judgment, relying on an expert whose advice is later determined to be faulty, or making a decision based on incomplete information rarely lead to personal liability on the part of individual board members. This means that board members who act in good faith and with diligence and care, are unlikely to be held personally responsible for their actions on the nonprofit’s behalf. However, there are a number of specific situations that create or increase the exposure to personal liability, such as:

    • Actions and activity that intentionally cause injury, harm or damage to persons or property
    • Personal participation in the tortious conduct of a nonprofit’s employees (tortious conduct is conduct that subjects the actor to civil liability under the law)
    • The knowing approval of criminal acts or active involvement in criminal activities by the organization
    • Personal involvement in a contract involving the nonprofit that is tainted by fraud
    • Active participation in a transaction approved by the board with an entity in which the board member had a substantial personal or financial interest.


    • Like 1
  15. 28 minutes ago, jcousino said:

    Bad choice as this makes the signers at  risk for any  claims (any cause). I would never ask any one to be willing to place their home at risk for scouting.


    What "signers"?  The risk is the same as for your current CO...and the charter agreement has BSA providing insurance under that agreement.

  16. 6 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

    It is official, our Catholic Diocese will not charter ANY BSA units. Somewhere between 30 to 50 units being dumped. ("Well, our Troop Committee can count about a dozen in our immediate area, and the Diocese is huge, so 20 to 60?) Lots.

    Worst fears realized. (Started the inquiries in October, 2021, guidance issued 4-19-2022.) Thanks.

    Nearly 80± years of sponsorship tradition DEAD.

    Still possible to enter into a Facilities Use Agreement with the Parish, but with conditions, specifically, certain insurance requirements (details yet unspecified-inquiries being made re details), and Catholic "youth protection training." AS LONG AS  our Troop and Pack can find a Chartering Organization. That might be doable.

    So, our Troop (and Pack) has several options:

    1.  Suffer a DEchartering and wish all the scouts and parents "Good Luck." (Our Council has informed us that this is looming-"You can't meet, wear uniforms... (...well, I will resist comment...a bit))

    2.  Encourage and assist scouts and parents to transfer to other units (allows them to continue to officially work on and be recognized for advancement).  We have a number approaching Eagle.  This is the "quail" solution-everyone scatters.  

    3.  Merge our unit's scouts with another unit.  This option could work well or go horribly wrong, depending on how the parents of the merging scouts react to a lessening of their role in the troop (pack) merged into.

    4.  Find another Chartering Organization, but enter into a Facilities Use Agreement with our current Parish, former chartering organization.  A seamless transition, as far as the scouts are concerned.  Keep meeting at the same place with their same friends and same adult leaders.  (Adult paperwork changes, but scouts see no change.)

    5.  Find another Chartering Organization which will provide new facilities for the Troop's (and Pack's) meetings. Change of chartering organization (scouts probably will not notice), BUT change of meeting location, which scouts will certainly notice.

    HOWEVER, a unit changing its chartering organization raises the specter of the unit having to FORFEIT all of its assets to the former chartering organization leaving the transferring unit penniless and devoid of equipment.

    Oh, Happy Day.

    Not so, as my units have no answers.


    Option 6.  Create your own 501 c(3), "Troop XX Boosters" or some such...  Become your own chartering org, sign your facilities agreement, carry on...  Transparent to your Scouts.

  17. If you have time...


    In a nutshell...all people act from a sense or construct of hierarchical needs or drives in their lives. 

    Whatever exists at the top of that hierarchy serves as your "God."  It does exist, or you would not be able to function in the world.

    So, what is your greatest good (or what is of greatest value to you)... and what is your duty to act towards imitating that good (or realizing that value)?  Worth-ship = worship (it's actually the origin of the word)

    This ought to be BSA's new Declaration of Religious Principle...or change it to a Declaration of Moral Principle, since so many people get hung up on words they are unwilling to define or admit they live by...

    Getting a young person thinking about this question, articulating their thoughts on it, and how to apply the meaning of it in their lives...this is what we are aiming at...

    For Conan...it was something entirely different 😜




    • Upvote 2
  18. 1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    If this is the wrong spot for the question, Mods please feel free to move it to the right one.

    When will the transcript of the session that the CHURCHILL PLAN was discussed and how do I go about getting a copy of the transcript? No one in my council is mentioning anything about it, and when I do ask questions about it, I am told I am "spreading rumors," and "no one knows what is actually going to happen." Considering the leash that national does have over councils, national gets its way.



    Lol...so, in your council, asking questions is "spreading rumors"??  Truth is dead, and we have killed it.  (with a nod to Nietzsche)


    • Haha 1
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