InquisitiveScouter

Just now, Ojoman said:

Some folks will always be resistant to change. That's their opinion and at the present time those folks can continue to run single gender programs. World Scouting has been co-ed for many decades and it has worked out well. The BSA is a Johnny come lately on that score. There have been hundreds of girls now that have earned Eagle or been elected into the OA and who have held leadership positions. I think that is GREAT! The folks in favor of this are many and that is a good thing. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with gender separation, when it is by choice. 

This is a basic right called freedom of assembly (association), guaranteed by the First Amendment.  I may associate with whomever I choose...

You don't like it?  Then work to get the Constitution re-written.  Once re-written, I'll support you 100%.

I do believe the current BSA model is neither well thought out, nor sustainable.

"Separate but equal" is a bad idea.  Chartering Organizations should have the option to have a single gender Troop( or Troops), or a blended Troop.  Both have pros and cons.  I do not believe there is "one size fits all" for what we are trying to accomplish.  Give Chartering Organizations, parents, and Scouts the options to choose what program they'd like to participate in, according to the dictates of their conscience.

And, it is not working out in reality.  Many B & G Troops under the same CO are really "blended" troops just doing all their stuff together.  And I am fine with it. 

Yes, it is against BSA policy, but I believe the freedom of assembly right is a higher ethical standard.

34 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

100% agree.  BSA requirement is for the scout to have the skill to advance.  There is no requirement for the scout to be instructed.  Heck, an ideal scout owns their own skill development by reading or learning thru any method they can.  

Is your process egregious?  No.  Will it be a huge red flag?  No.  ...

It escalates as an issue when scout / troop conflict exists.   I saw this every year.   Scouts would escalate advancement issues to the Council Advancement Committee requesting approval to pursue Eagle beyond age 18 because the troop delayed the scout with extra hoops that added weeks / months of delay.  ...  I don't know if it would happen to your troop, but it does happen to other troops.  ...  A good CAC would can find in favor of the scout giving the scout a few months to six months because the troop did not do right by the scout.  

Concur... the only pertinent step in the advancement process is that a Scout "learns".  And that can happen in many different ways...

A Scout can learn the Seven Principles of Leave No Trace on his own.  When he feels he is ready to be tested to "Recite the Leave No Trace Seven Principles from memory." , he asks.

If he passes the test, great... sign him off.  If he does not pass the test, he goes back to learning, until he feels he is ready again.  You can offer instruction, but not require it.

25 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Is it a requirement to have a youth sign off before the adult does? If so, then you are clearly adding requirements. Cut and dry. Plain and simple. In this can, plain and added complexity. 

The youth is not "signing off" the requirement.  The youth (or, we should call them the Instructor) is simply using a column already printed in the Scout Handbook to indicate instruction is complete, and the Scout is ready to be tested.  (The check mark column on left side of requirements lists.)

However... if the Troop is "requiring" that this column be used, and is holding up a Scout from being tested or advanced because of it, then that would be adding requirements.

I did not interpret the explanation as saying this "must" be done... just that this was a way to communicate it had been done, and that the Scout was ready to be tested.

So, @KublaiKen, do you "require" that this left check column be "signed off", Or can a Scout simply present himself to a Scoutmaster-approved evaluator and say "Jimmy just finished instructing me, and I am ready to be tested!"??  If the Evaluator says, "No, your instructor did not sign in your book.", then you are violating advancement protocols.

I can see the utility in the method if there is some time/space between instruction and testing.  Say, Scout gets instruction at a Monday Troop meeting, but there is not time built into the meeting plan for testing.  So, Scout gets the instructor check in the book (or checks it himself and maybe writes in instructor info), and then on Saturday, during the camping trip, he grabs an SM-approved evaluator and gets tested.

14 minutes ago, MYCVAStory said:

I appreciate your honesty.  BSA National has not required Local Councils to have a Survivor on each Council's Board.   They have jusrt "recommended" it. I don't want to get into a debate over "cherry-picking" such requirements or the legality but I will offer this; if you are dedicated to the future of Scouting AND the safety of youth, DEMAND that your Council has a Survivor on its Board and do what you can to make sure that his/her voice is heard by the leaders of EVERY unit.   As Santayana said " “Those who forget their history are condemned to repeat it.”

 

Do you think it needs to be a survivor of abuse from within Scouting? Or someone with that experience in any arena?

Just now, MrJZhu said:

@InquisitiveScouter got any ideas for scripts I should say?

Yes, don't use a script.  You are really selling yourself, not some tickets.  Just know your stuff and talk to people. Connect with them.

Or, come up with your own script.  You can do it.  Here's a teaser...

"Hi, my name is Zhu, and I'm a Scout in Troop 4321 here in Malibu.  We are putting on a great breakfast for Mother's Day!  If you do not have plans already, the breakfast will be at Camp Josepho near Crestwood Hills, at 9 AM on Mother's Day.  Tickets are $10 per person, and it is all you can eat!  After that big breakfast, you can take a nice walk with your Mom to enjoy the outdoors in our camp.  Would you like to hear what's on the menu?"

Oh, and 9) if you are not attending, you'd better have a good excuse.  Like, you don't live with your mother, or something like that.  If a potential customer asks if you are taking your Mom, and you just say "No", you will probably lose a sale.  If you offer a valid explanation, they may be more sympathetic and open their wallet.

So, 10) go out and earn a little money to help your family buy tickets for the event, if you can go.

OK, stop saying "fined."  You are not being fined for anything.  1.  Having the right attitude is the first tip for selling your tickets.

2.  Know your product.  What are the menu options?  What time does it start?  Is it a buffet, cafeteria-style, or served at tables?  Is it kosher, or are there vegan or vegetarian options, or some other menu specialties (gluten free, allergy free)? Is it open to non-Scouting families?  Will there be alcohol served?  (Should be "no", but make sure you know the answer, in case someone asks you.)  Are there flowers, gifts, keepsakes, pictures, mementos, included for the Mom's?  How much are the tickets?  Is there a limit to the number of tickets (or seats at a table) that someone can buy?  Do you have a flyer you can hand out?  When is the deadline for buying tickets? How can someone pay you? (Cash, check, Venmo, Zelle, etc ??) How will you handle donations?  (that is, if someone does not want a ticket, or cannot go, but donates $5 to you instead, how will you handle that??)  Etc, etc, etc, Find these things out...  the more you know about what you are selling, the better salesman you will be.

3.  So, your market is people who are willing to take their Mother to a breakfast for Mothers Day, under any constraints you find in #2.  Find those people.  They are all around you.  Contact them!  The best way to sell something is face to face.  Email, texts, etc. are going to have a very bad return.  For example, if your event is open to all families, then ask your neighbors or friends at school if they want to take part in this wonderful opportunity to do something nice for their Mom on Mother's Day.  And all they have to do is show up!  Make them understand why your product is good for them!

4.  Be polite and courteous.  If someone says "No, thank you!", then you say "OK, thanks for your time, and have a great day!"  I have seen people change their mind based on salesman's courteous reaction to their "No."  Doesn't happen often, but it does happen!

5.  Find out if you are allowed to wear your Scout uniform.  If yes, then wear the best uniform assembly you have... shirt, pants, belt, socks, the whole nine yards...  You WILL get more sales if you are in uniform.  Be clean, showered, hair reasonably tamed, fingernails clean, etc.  Look people in the eye, and smile.  Some people may even buy tickets from you with no intention of going, just because they want to support you.

6.  Tickets will not sell themselves.  You will have to get out and do it.

7.  If your mother and grandmother are still with us, find someone in their lives who would like to do this for them (Dad, grandfather, brother, sister, aunts, uncles, etc. ), and ask!

8.  Ask your teachers, coaches, tutors, Scout leaders (who are not trying to sell tickets themselves).

Best wishes!!

Who, what, when , where, how, why??

Tell us about the event, intended audience, who is putting it on, where is it, when is it, what is the purpose of the event???

Then we can give you some great ideas on how to sell tickets for it 😜 

1 minute ago, MrJZhu said:

@rememberschiff the fine is the cost I would have to pay if I failed to sell the amount of tickets to cover the dues covered by the fundraiser.

Then, it is not a "fine."  A Scout is expected to pay his way... so pay your way, either through the fundraiser, or with the buy-out. 

Welcome!

Who, what, when , where, how, why??

"Fine" is probably a "buy-out" cost.  That is, for the Troop fundraiser, there is an expected amount each Scout will raise to offset unit expenditures.  If you do not raise that amount, you must make it up.

This is normal, and helps prevent someone from taking advantage of the diligent fundraising efforts of others in the Troop.

15 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Related, leadership position self-assessment. Reflection can be powerful.

"This self-evaluation is a tool to help you reflect on your effectiveness as a Troop Leader and to help your Senior Leadership team and Scoutmaster improve supporting these positions. Please complete this form and return it to the Scoutmaster. The completion of this evaluation is MANDATORY in order to receive credit for having served in this position."

Troop Position of Responsibility Self-Evaluation

https://bsatroop713.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Troop-Leader-Self-Evaluation.pdf

Excellent.  And as long as the Troop is consistent in applying this for all Positions of Responsibility, then I am all for it!

A good leader communicates, confirms understanding of, and enforces expectations 😜 

25 minutes ago, swilliams said:

It's making me a little crazy that our unit/district/council can't just follow what is set by National.  It leads to so much confusion.  Sometimes I feel like the adults around here like to stick their fingers in the pie a little too much, even as they say "scout led" with their mouths full of pie.  Maybe it's fine that younger son wants to quit.  Less headache all around.

"Rules for thee, but not for me."

Unfortunately, we have to work very hard to avoid these kinds of people.  Yes, it is less headache all around.  But, it is also a life lesson, as you will NEVER be rid of them.  Sometimes, you have to feed the dragon.

As for me, my tactics are to learn all the rules, and try to think about why they are in place.  Then, I find ways to work within the system to maneuver around those people who do not know/follow the rules and just want to have their own fiefdoms.  There are times when you win, and times when you lose.

Some of the greatest warning phrases you'll hear when you are encountering these folks are:

"That's the way we do it here."  (The message here is that "We know better." and "We are above the rules.")

"That's the way we have always done it." (Versus an explanation and justification for the rule.  It's just plain lazy thinking...)

"That's the way I was taught." (Well, maybe you were taught incorrectly??  What does the book say? What is the reason for the update?)

Asking you "Why?"  (instead of asking themselves "Why not?")

@swilliams,

Another point...

Are you prepared to fully fund this project now?  Doing a GoFundMe, or soliciting donations from anyone outside your family will require additional paperwork which will further slow things down.  That paperwork DOES have to go to council.  But, only AFTER the Proposal has been approved by Council or District Project Approval Representative.  See Fundraising Application Page A  (did he already get signatures on this one, too??)

If you have the ability to fund the project, do it.

1 hour ago, SSScout said:

District Advancement Chair, admittedly a stickler for detail, tells Scout he filled out an obsolete application, he needs to redo the application on the NEW up-to-date application. Scout parenthetically throws up his hands, says in essence  "to hell with this all", and goes off to join the Air Force.  No one can convince him otherwise.  Last report, he is a Master Sargent in Australia.... 

If you have records for all this, we can submit an appeal to National and get this Master Sergeant his Eagle Award.  Mostly, we would need the application.

If he did, in fact, have his requirements complete before 18, National will award the Eagle.  They are not usually martinets about the date of a form...

You willing??

@swilliams, sent you DM as well, but for the benefit of others:

If he has all signatures, have him email the Workbook (with pdf of signature page) directly to the Council or District Project Approval Representative.  Contact info on proposal page B.

Give a brief explanation... something like Eagle Project Coach made a commitment to submit on such-and-such a date, but this has not happened.  Ask for a reply email to acknowledge receipt.

He has off from school today for the holiday, right?

When he sends it, have him cc his SM and Unit Advancement Chair.  (again, see contact info page.)

And just make sure you are holding on to any email history sent.  This will buy him extension time, if needed.

Any extension granted may only cover time lost since he submitted his proposal to Eagle Project Coach.  His other impediments on previous projects will probably not carry any weight.

-----------------

Also, some process notes... "Council" should not see his workbook until after project is complete (even if that is their process.)  This is all in the hands of volunteers at this point.  Specifically, the Council or District Project Approval Representative, who is most likely a volunteer.

-------------------

Have a heart to heart with your son, and make sure he is committed to this.  It is worth doing!  If he gives up, he will regret it for the rest of his life, and be bitter about the people who have let him down thus far.  Convince him to go down fighting.

If he does have today off from school, after his sending in the Workbook, turn him to his Merit Badges.  He has a lot to do! 

1 hour ago, scoutldr said:

I can't help but think this is a societal problem.  I have work I need done and cash in hand for some handyman work.  Think I can get anyone to show any interest?  My neighbor did have someone working on his house, so I went over and talked to him to do some floor repair.  He actually came over and looked at the job, acted interested and promised to email me an estimate the next day.  I didn't really need an estimate at this point, I was ready to pay whatever he said, since in two years, it's the first time anyone has bothered to look at it.  Well, it's been 2 weeks.  Nothing.  I realize it's not a big job, but it's beyond my physical capabilities now.  Facebook is full of complaints of the same nature.  People won't return your calls.  If they do call, they don't show up when they say they will.  I don't know what the solution is.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

1 hour ago, swilliams said:

That's a good point.  I've been waiting for a roofing company to come give me an estimate.  Called again Friday to see what happened to the first work order that no one ever responded to.  We have one estimate, but the quote was $12,900 for our little 3 bedroom, 1 bath ranch.  Guess our intersecting roofline and the dormer in the attic are just too much work.   And now I've just done something I complain about all the time as a seamstress....  someone questioning the price I charge for my work.  🤣

$10K - $15K is a good range for houses in your area...

1 hour ago, swilliams said:

Apparently Council only wants each counselor to do three MBs. 

Cutting off their nose in spite of their face...

I see you are in Central NJ.  DM me, please.

If we are close enough, and you are willing, you can have your Scout multiple into our unit.  We can get that proposal moved in quick time...

I also have some bandwidth available and extensive contacts.  Let me know what MB's?  (Some can be done entirely over Zoom, if your Scout has done his/her homework.)

Always remember... it's the adults that ruin Scouting 😜

29 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

My file was shared with the local council, the "Catholic Insurance" organization, and who knows exactly where else.  So, if the bankruptcy goes south, I have shared my most private details with multiple organizations (which also potentially places me at risk for retaliation) and the SoL still applies.  I am so P##### off about this turn of events.  Not that I was ever going to see much money (due to matrix sol), but I WAS going to have a feeling of some justice being served.  Since the early promises, this has done nothing but further damage my life.  I had built a big wall around my abuse and I allowed it to be shattered for the sake of the justice I was absolutely assured would occur.  I wish I had never put myself through this.  Not much of a surprise that in the end, the only ones having a good day are the attorneys on salary and, of course, the insurance companies.  

I sympathize with your plight.

And despite all the promises and pronouncements made, I have always harbored a suspicion that this was never about justice for victims like you.

It was only a legal/business play made by BSA National to reduce exposure and protect assets.  The real outcome (currently) is that it has added insult to injury.

I am still hoping for some sort of positive outcome for all of you.  Specifically, if the current Chapter 11 falls through, I hope the window opens for many of you to bring perpetrators and/or responsible parties to court for judgements or settlements. 

God be with you, and grant you some peace...

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Star Trek speculates that scouting will still exist in the 22nd century. 

 

Only they got the script wrong...

"I was an Eagle Scout."  For shame...

I AM an Eagle Scout 😜

2 minutes ago, George said:

Thanks for all your insights. I wanted to follow up on the above. Does your troop used mixed-age/traditional patrols? Assuming the answer is yes, when your patrols choose backpacking, do the young/small/inexperienced patrol members stay behind or do the older Scouts help them along? Thanks again!

No.  We group patrols by age.  If younger ones want to join a backpacking trip, we have to factor in the two-years in age difference rule for tenting.  Otherwise, elders help the juniors.  If a small group, we do not allow for "strung out" backpacking.  Put the slower paced up front.

If you have eight or more, split into two crews.  Recommend not backpacking with more than 12.  Gaggle, noise, space, courtesy, impact, etc...

If you are lucky enough to have more than twelve (and four adults), split into groups that go opposite directions on a loop.  High fives when you pass each other out on the trail...

Also, with larger groups, we will divide into crews of three, four or so (two buddy pairs, or a triple).  Set out about five to ten minutes apart, after map study and rally point are understood.  Slower paced first, then a little faster, then a little faster.  If multiple adults, two adults go after first or second group, but do not pass.  Two adults go after last group as sweep.

Learn trail etiquette... step aside and let faster groups pass.

If only two adults, then one adult goes behind first group, one goes with last group (fastest).

At the rally, last group arriving gets a full rest period.  Then start off again in same order (or revised, based on slower paced first.)

This spacing is a health and safety issue for me.  We all need to provide mutual support in an emergency.  Stringing out makes accounting for everyone, and taking advantage of first aid resources and rescue options extremely difficult.

One of the most mind boggling things to me is the tendency of older, faster Scouts to hike with their face in the backpack of the person in front of them.  So, a few times during the trip, we practice lightning safety spacing... 100 feet apart while making our way to "cover".  You should try this.  It is an eye opener for group dynamics, communication, planning, and keeping track of the party.

40 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

This is a neat idea. The left hand column initials by the PL as an indicator that the scout is ready to be be tested by the ASM (the person authorized to do sign-offs). I can see the scout having an increased motivation to ask to be tested and have confidence in their success. This also keeps the older scouts sharp, and provides leadership and peer mentorship.

Even if the PLC decides (with authorization by the SM) to have SPL or PL do official testing and sign-offs, I really like the idea of another older scout  put their initials on the left side as an indicator of "readiness to be tested". For example, the PL might become authorized to sign-off on requirements and the APL helps the scouts be ready and uses their initials on the left to communicate said readiness.

Instructors should not also serve the role of evaluators.  I agree with @DuctTape's train of thought.

It's not about "doing it twice."  In fact, a Scout should "do" as many times as necessary to acquire the skill, THEN be tested.  He only has to pass the test once.

29 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

@InquisitiveScouterfor National Commissioner! 

No, brother... Chief Scout of the USA!

With you as National Commissioner, we stand a good chance to turn this ship to a better course!

- What best practices can you share?  Planning! Planning! Planning!  And let the PLC decide what they want to do.  Adults should zip it.  You are there for health and safety 😜 

- What defines a backpacking troop, anyway?  Up to you!  A Troop "ought" to be camping every month (12 times a year.)  JTE Gold level asks you to have 9 short term and 1 long term camp (so 10 times).  I would define a "backpacking troop" as one that does at least half its outings as backpacking... so 5 or 6 times a year. 

- How does your troop prepare recent crossovers and other young/small/inexperienced Scouts for backpacking?  We split up and have about 4 patrol outings per year in the troop program,  Older Scouts are more likely to choose backpacking.  We do 15-20 milers.  We also shoot for one long term backpacking trip per year... 5 days, 4 nights, 50-miler.  We do not encourage young/small/inexperienced to do backpacking.  But neither do we discourage.  It's simply a question of weight ratios! (nod to Monty Python) Scouts need to bring between 25-35 pounds of gear/food/water, depending on length of trip and weather conditions.  Beginners should stay about 25% of their weight.  So, a Scout ought to be around 100 pounds before they start backpacking.  Even then, other Scouts usually wind up carrying some of their gear, or at least much of their share of patrol gear.  So, we do some training outings, day only.  Show up in the morning for a gear shakedown, then carry a full pack for a day hike.  If a Scout has issues, maybe he needs to wait before going backpacking.  Don't set them up to be miserable. Scouts will try to take on much more than they can handle, so let them learn before throwing them in the back woods.   

How many backpacking trips does your troop typically do each year (and what do you do the rest of the year)? 3, with one long term trip, IF that is what the PLC (or Patrol) has decided to do.  Rest of the year, we do whatever the PLC has picked for program in their Annual Planning Conference.  THIS IS THE WAY!

If you converted your troop to backpacking, what challenges did you have to overcome?  Our PLC did not "convert", but they did add a great deal more backpacking over the last four years.  Gear (for Patrols) has been the issue.

In your experience, how does backpacking support the patrol method?  Every person for himself is not Scouting.  You may have a great backpacking trip, but if you are not using the Patrol Method, you are not Scouting.  Doing it by Patrols is more difficult... Patrol plans their budget and menu, shops for the food.  Meets ahead of time to divide and pre-package, where needed.  Two white gas stoves per patrol.  One tent per two Scouts,.  Bear bags or bear canisters, depending on destination requirements.  Patrol first aid kit.  One water filter and tablets as a back up... we boil all water.  Simply put, it is the only way to be sure you kill everything.  (this one will draw fire....) https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/pdf/drinking/Backcountry_Water_Treatment-508.pdf

Lots more to add... but I gotta do some chores!

My first troop was a backpacking troop.  We had about 25 Scouts.  At meetings, we would run one mile for conditioning.  Most weekend trips were 15 or 20-milers done as loops.  We would drive to a campsite, or trailhead on Friday night and camp nearby, usually within a mile or two.  Ten+ miles on Saturday, then finish off the rest on Sunday to where the vehicles were.

We were organized as patrols at the Troop meetings, but it was every man for himself on the trail.  Bring all your own gear and food.  It made things really easy for the group, but there was no patrol method.  Had a great time and lots of adventures.

I moved away for about two years. New troop was all patrol method. Very different.  No backpacking.  I always felt k8nd of out of place.

When we moved back, the first Troop was down to about 7 Scouts.  No new Scouts had come to the Troop.  I think it was because the backpacking-only thing was not a big draw.  Still had lots of fun and adventures.  When we got a new SM, he brought in Patrol method.  Another local troop folded, and all their Scouts came to us.  Completely changed the flavor, but it was more Scouting. 

One trick ponies don't work out well, IMO.  I have seen several troops like that wither away across the years.

58 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

Thanks! So my argument would not be that they CAN'T be CC and ASM, but rather, that they AREN'T CC and ASM (as I never appointed them ASM, nor are they registered as such). Semantics I guess at that point, but my guess is they won't care. We will be going the cake route.  

You are correct.

Might be a bit passive/aggressive, but if you want, you can go into Scoutbook, open their profile, select Memberships, and end the ASM role the same day as it began (not sure you can delete that entirely...).  

As to the Committee stuff... that is under his purview, so out of your lane.

Also, it is up to the Scoutmaster as to whom can sign off requirements.  Since you have not appointed him as an ASM, you should tell him to cease signing off requirements, if that is your desire.

Now, unfortunately, a Unit Advancement Chair and the CC still retain that capability in Scoutbook, but that is a flaw in the application design.