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Posts posted by InquisitiveScouter

  1. 7 minutes ago, yknot said:

    Think about what scouters do with other peoples' children and where they do it with them. It doesn't take much to prove willful negligence on the part of a scouter or a CO in the event a child is injured on an outing. Weather is a big one. Scouters who proudly, publicly, and recklessly claim they never cancel a camp out...  

    Agreed.  That is why I am such a jerk about every BSA policy, planning, swim checks, permission slips, medical forms, etc., etc., etc.  There is a fairly high price (in time required) for due diligence.

    Scouts who do not abide by instructions and discipline do not last long in our Troop.  If you do not do as you are told (in matters of health and safety), then I refuse to take you into the woods...

    Firm but fair...

    Due diligence begins before you even depart for the trip.

    So, @yknot have you ever been sued for something Scouting related?

  2. 1 minute ago, yknot said:

    That's partly why I'm no longer a scout leader. As far as forming a board, if it is a board formed of local families, then you are the board. If someone wants to sue, they are not suing a valued community institution with long term stature like a church or service organization, which might give them pause, they are suing a random group of adults. 

    They'd still be suing a non-profit with no assets (except camping gear and a paltry bank account)... officers of those organizations cannot be held liable for things other than what was listed above, which is tantamount to criminal behavior anyway...


    • Upvote 1
  3. 2 minutes ago, yknot said:

    As I've advised before, anyone can sue you for anything and even if you are proven blameless, you can spend a lot of time dealing with a very stressful situation, having to hire a lawyer, attending hearings, and taking time off from work until it's resolved.

    Agreed...which begs the question, why even be a Scout leader, if this is the case?

  4. 37 minutes ago, jcousino said:

    Bad choice as this makes the signers at  risk for any  claims (any cause). I would never ask any one to be willing to place their home at risk for scouting.


    The risk of personal criminal or civil liability on the part of individual nonprofit board members is small but difficult to quantify. It is important to note that exercising poor judgment, relying on an expert whose advice is later determined to be faulty, or making a decision based on incomplete information rarely lead to personal liability on the part of individual board members. This means that board members who act in good faith and with diligence and care, are unlikely to be held personally responsible for their actions on the nonprofit’s behalf. However, there are a number of specific situations that create or increase the exposure to personal liability, such as:

    • Actions and activity that intentionally cause injury, harm or damage to persons or property
    • Personal participation in the tortious conduct of a nonprofit’s employees (tortious conduct is conduct that subjects the actor to civil liability under the law)
    • The knowing approval of criminal acts or active involvement in criminal activities by the organization
    • Personal involvement in a contract involving the nonprofit that is tainted by fraud
    • Active participation in a transaction approved by the board with an entity in which the board member had a substantial personal or financial interest.


    • Like 1
  5. 28 minutes ago, jcousino said:

    Bad choice as this makes the signers at  risk for any  claims (any cause). I would never ask any one to be willing to place their home at risk for scouting.


    What "signers"?  The risk is the same as for your current CO...and the charter agreement has BSA providing insurance under that agreement.

  6. 6 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

    It is official, our Catholic Diocese will not charter ANY BSA units. Somewhere between 30 to 50 units being dumped. ("Well, our Troop Committee can count about a dozen in our immediate area, and the Diocese is huge, so 20 to 60?) Lots.

    Worst fears realized. (Started the inquiries in October, 2021, guidance issued 4-19-2022.) Thanks.

    Nearly 80± years of sponsorship tradition DEAD.

    Still possible to enter into a Facilities Use Agreement with the Parish, but with conditions, specifically, certain insurance requirements (details yet unspecified-inquiries being made re details), and Catholic "youth protection training." AS LONG AS  our Troop and Pack can find a Chartering Organization. That might be doable.

    So, our Troop (and Pack) has several options:

    1.  Suffer a DEchartering and wish all the scouts and parents "Good Luck." (Our Council has informed us that this is looming-"You can't meet, wear uniforms... (...well, I will resist comment...a bit))

    2.  Encourage and assist scouts and parents to transfer to other units (allows them to continue to officially work on and be recognized for advancement).  We have a number approaching Eagle.  This is the "quail" solution-everyone scatters.  

    3.  Merge our unit's scouts with another unit.  This option could work well or go horribly wrong, depending on how the parents of the merging scouts react to a lessening of their role in the troop (pack) merged into.

    4.  Find another Chartering Organization, but enter into a Facilities Use Agreement with our current Parish, former chartering organization.  A seamless transition, as far as the scouts are concerned.  Keep meeting at the same place with their same friends and same adult leaders.  (Adult paperwork changes, but scouts see no change.)

    5.  Find another Chartering Organization which will provide new facilities for the Troop's (and Pack's) meetings. Change of chartering organization (scouts probably will not notice), BUT change of meeting location, which scouts will certainly notice.

    HOWEVER, a unit changing its chartering organization raises the specter of the unit having to FORFEIT all of its assets to the former chartering organization leaving the transferring unit penniless and devoid of equipment.

    Oh, Happy Day.

    Not so, as my units have no answers.


    Option 6.  Create your own 501 c(3), "Troop XX Boosters" or some such...  Become your own chartering org, sign your facilities agreement, carry on...  Transparent to your Scouts.

  7. If you have time...


    In a nutshell...all people act from a sense or construct of hierarchical needs or drives in their lives. 

    Whatever exists at the top of that hierarchy serves as your "God."  It does exist, or you would not be able to function in the world.

    So, what is your greatest good (or what is of greatest value to you)... and what is your duty to act towards imitating that good (or realizing that value)?  Worth-ship = worship (it's actually the origin of the word)

    This ought to be BSA's new Declaration of Religious Principle...or change it to a Declaration of Moral Principle, since so many people get hung up on words they are unwilling to define or admit they live by...

    Getting a young person thinking about this question, articulating their thoughts on it, and how to apply the meaning of it in their lives...this is what we are aiming at...

    For Conan...it was something entirely different 😜




    • Upvote 2
  8. 1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    If this is the wrong spot for the question, Mods please feel free to move it to the right one.

    When will the transcript of the session that the CHURCHILL PLAN was discussed and how do I go about getting a copy of the transcript? No one in my council is mentioning anything about it, and when I do ask questions about it, I am told I am "spreading rumors," and "no one knows what is actually going to happen." Considering the leash that national does have over councils, national gets its way.



    Lol...so, in your council, asking questions is "spreading rumors"??  Truth is dead, and we have killed it.  (with a nod to Nietzsche)


    • Haha 1
  9. 59 minutes ago, clivusmultrum said:


     At our unit level I can tell you that none are excluded for religion or lack. I can also say there is a disinterest in  what the Natl. Org. Is up to.   The young people in our unit came from one of two or three different Cup Packs.  I’m pretty sure that not a one of them has read any such thing. The Troop recharters, dues are collected and they keep on Scouting.

    I think Scouts BSA will eventually land on the right note. It might be a few decades after everybody else. I was talking to some of our guys about what it is to be reverent and it quickly jumped over religious views and went to the reverence of old growth forests, sacred places where we honor those that have gone before, reverence in art museums….

    That is why I used the passive voice in the statement...  That is to say, if you are following the principles you signed up to in the application (agreement) you made with the BSA, then you cannot welcome atheists, as the national organization does not.

    BTW, I, too, disagree with BSA's position on this.  But that's not the point.

    When any prospective member, and family, comes to us, I make sure to review the application with them, and discuss the DRP.  (Full faith in advertising.)

    In all my years of Scouting, I have only had one family (adamant atheists) who would not agree with BSA's DRP, and chose not to find a rational way to accept the huge amount of wiggle room the DRP gives you.

    The individual Scout gets to define what his own duty to God is and means.  If a Scout chooses to say I do not believe in anything like that (however he defines it), and rejects the opportunity to define his own duty to God, then that person can simply not be a Scout.

    • Upvote 1
  10. 1 minute ago, clivusmultrum said:

     I don't see evidence that Atheists work on different values. I think they are welcomed and I’ll up my game.

    They are not welcomed currently.

    The application for membership excerpts the DRP...

    "The BSA maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership."

    How can one say the Scout Oath, and then then Scout Law, and then say he does not believe?  The contradiction is disqualifying.

    Agree that BSA has a problem with the Buddhist exception...  

    The way I accept them both is to adopt a mindset that they believe they are their own "god".  Insofar as you can define that...  That is, they are the author of their own moral and ethical standards...  Humanists, if you will...


    To be transparent, I also see many who profess a belief, but who then do not act accordingly.

    It is a very difficult thing to act as if God exists.  And somewhat terrifying...  I struggle with this constantly.

    • Upvote 1
  11. 28 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:


    For a VERY brief period, I want to say  it was 2014-16, a test out option was allowed by national. One of my friends was district training chair, and his eventual successor was one of those who did it.

    One of the reasons why I used staff that needed ITOLS, but I personally knew had the knowledge, skills, and abilities already and could teach the course. Plus ever since the training records S.N.A.F.U.  in 2007/08 I was told to ALWAYS list instructors as students as well.

    Wondered why they did this...makes sense.

  12. 5 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

    I did this for my COR.  Apparently our council hasn't updated anything.  She has a Silver Beaver along with a bunch of other knots.  Nada in the awards section.

    Very normal for this...record keeping isn't your average council's strong suit.

    • Sad 1
  13. 3 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

    I can't match your resume but I was quite unimpressed with most of my IOLS  instruction as well.   I offered to help teach too but was told that my services were not needed.  

    You must be a wave-maker like me😎😎😎

  14. 24 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    Still have issues with both today, even with technology. Back then I remember having to tell the Philmont Training Center Faculty member in my district that according to the council's records, he was untrained. That was not a fun experience.

    18 years ago when National told councils to clean up their training records, it was a nightmare. In my council, anyone who had training done over a year prior was "untrained." One of the issues was that  BSA decided only to list only the most current Training courses titles.  None of the older course titles were listed.And some of our Scouters took training in the 1960s. To deal with the situation, The council pro's told us to  use the dates for the original training, but put in the title and codes for the current training. That worked for about 2-3 years. Then National realized they screwed up by not including the older training, any added the older courses, as well as time lines for the courses. That deleted all the work that was done with the older courses as they were beyond the date ranges of the current courses. Thankfully I kept paper and digital copies of all my work, and just had to resubmit. However the council and some training chairs did not keep those records, and they had to redo all the work again.


    I had to laugh here when I put in my paperwork to be a Scoutmaster about 7 years ago now.  The council registrar told me I had to do IOLS...

    Eagle Scout, 15 years camp staff, former ASM/SM for 11 years, 4 x NCS grad (Scoutcraft x 2, Aquatics instuctor, Commissioner), Woodbadge (1992l...would they grandfather me for that requirement?  


    OK, so I took IOLS...and was deeply unimpressed.  There were three instructors that were awesome...the rest, I wondered why they were there. The level of knowledge and skills was extremely lacking.  I began to understand why Scouts repeatedly came up short on skills and knowledge.

    So, I volunteered to help teach for the next few years.  

    • Upvote 2
  15. Just now, RememberSchiff said:

    I still see both 30in and 36in sash at $11.99


    I think @PACAN means sash with average amount of merit badges...

    21 required for Eagle @ $2.79 current = $58.59, plus sash cost of $11.99 = $70.58

    [My Eagle has 39 MBs currently, so replacement cost would be $120.80}

    A 23% increase would make that $86.81...and you average Eagle Scout has many more than 21 MB's...

    I can see over $100 easy for that...

    • Thanks 1
  16. 15 minutes ago, yknot said:

    but that's not the place they come from for most of the people that raise them on this forum or at least I don't think so. For example, I'm not here because I like constantly pointing out BSA's failings, I'm here because I want BSA to stop failing. 

    Hear, hear!!

    • Thanks 1
  17. Involvement of Abused Alumni Post-Bankruptcy?


    Other than persons appointed to serve on governance committees as a result of the bankruptcy settlement, do you think BSA alumni who were abused will return to serve youth in the BSA?


    If so, what do you think they should or will do as BSA volunteers?


    Is a sense of reconciliation or forgiveness likely or even possible?


    Will BSA volunteer parents of today’s daughters and sons and those who step forward to lead the BSA in the future be perpetually held to account for the negligent oversight and evil acts of the past?


  18. 13 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

    It's the continual dumping.  Statements like: that's failure.

    As many have pointed out, the perception, mine included, is that National (and the local council) does its "dumping" on volunteers...consistently.

    I have never been a part of any organization that practices "shoot the messenger" more consistently than BSA.

    There are also a string of failures, demonstrating a pattern of disregard for BSAs mission and purpose, and a disregard for the value that adult volunteers bring to their portfolio, which many, including me, have experienced.  They are failures, because they are being PAID!!!  And many of them, extremely handsomely, to provide services and support to volunteers and youth, which they are not.

    If it was just you and me as volunteers, I'd cut you a great deal of slack.

    I know what Shinola is.  And I know that much of what I see from BSA is not Shinola.




    • Upvote 1
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