InquisitiveScouter

And yet, when you point out gaps in BSA policy like this, you get the stink eye.

But, we can have an effect!  I am convinced @RichardB got hold of people to make this change due to our conversations here!

https://www.scouter.com/topic/33455-concerns-for-bsas-future/?tab=comments#comment-549021

And the result generated:

"Cub Scout pack unit coordinated camping is limited to no more than two consecutive nights. "

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/#a

Thanks, @RichardB!!

I do wish they recognized and appreciated the brain trust we have here, to bat around policies in a collaborative environment to help provide clear and definitive guidance...

2 hours ago, RichardB said:

But.... he is not, from your OP, he is an active Cub Scout, still engaged in Cub Scout advancement and programming.    

No... he is inactive because the den has not completed AOL, and has no definitive plan to do so.

So, he (his parent really) is wanting to ditch Cub Scouts, and they are looking for a Troop. 

The parent (I guess after their experience with an under-performing den?) wants to make sure they avoid a similar situation, and wants to find a quality program for their son.  "Try it before you buy it."

The crux of the question is, why would we impose a handicap on a youth who meets the criteria to join Scouts BSA, that he would not otherwise have, simply because he is registered as a Cub Scout?

1 hour ago, HashTagScouts said:

How sure do you feel about "Your insurance coverage was exactly the same"? Have you asked your Council that question?

Yes, our Registrar confirms they are covered by our Accident and Insurance policy, per

"Scouts and guests who are being encouraged to become registered Scouts and volunteers are automatically insured while in attendance at a scheduled activity."

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss10/

7 minutes ago, RichardB said:

But.... he is not, from your OP, he is an active Cub Scout, still engaged in Cub Scout advancement and programming.    

LOL, thanks.  You see the logic trap, therefore avoid answering the question.

I will appeal to Caesar, and hold hope that common sense still reigns.

@qwazse, you are once again proven correct!  Rule #1 (Don’t ask for a rule, you’ll live to regret it.)  Not regretting it yet, but getting there 😜 

6 minutes ago, DannyG said:

Where I am unclear is can the scout be dual-registered to a Pack and a Troop at the same time? Or is a scout unable to earn Arrow of Light once he joins a Troop?

A youth cannot be registered in both programs.  They are mutually exclusive. I looked in the Registration Guidebook, but could not find this specific prohibition.  But, I do know the electronic systems do not allow this status.  So, your Registrar would not do it.

In implementation, yes:  A youth is unable to earn the AOL once he joins Scouts, BSA.

17 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Come to find out, med form was inaccurate, the kid is on meds, and parent did not say anything to us nor sent his meds with him. It's not a situation that we would want to take on that someone off the street comes on an overnight with us. I couldn't name one troop in our District that would be OK with it either.

OK, so what's the difference in that Scout having "joined".

Your insurance coverage was exactly the same.

And you haven't really done anything to prevent exactly what you have outlined from happening again, have you?

Are you saying that, once having "joined", you still do not allow a Scout to camp, until you feel comfortable that the parent has filled out the medical form correctly and sends the Scout with his meds?  How do you know when you have reached that point?

BTW, we require the medical form, a signed permission slip,  and have that conversation with the parents in the presence of a witness.  If the parent misrepresents and something happens, then that is on them.

P.S.  That conversation includes behavior expectations, and that a parent must always be available to come pick them up during the weekend.

22 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

It's in the G2SS (sort-of): Youth who are not registered in the unit may not accompany parents or siblings in camping programs of Scouts BSA, Venturing, and Sea Scouting.

Too much liability for us.

Just curious...

What do you mean by "too much liability"??  Would you specify, please?

But if he was not already registered, at 11 years old, he would be OK?

Can you see the incongruity in your interpretation of that policy?

This youth has already met two of the three existing criteria to join.  But because he is registered already, you impose only the third criterion?

And... to take that to its logical extreme... because he cannot withdraw his membership, on what date would he be relieved of your policy burden, if he chooses not to finish his AOL?

It's not a den coordinated campout.  Thanks

Just now, RememberSchiff said:

Back to @scoutldr point, is parent authorization obtained during this my.scouting transfer?

(I'm old)

Yes.

My practice is to get this through an email or text exchange.

Others accept a verbal.  In person or over the phone.

7 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

On the roster page for the current Pack or Troop you click the check box by the name of the Scout.  That will change 'transfer' at the top of the page to a clickable link.  Click on it and it will ask you for the unit type and number, that will allow you to select the correct unit.  Once you click to complete the transfer it will let you know that the registration has been created.  The new unit accepts via my.scouting and it is done.  (Just did one today for an outgoing AOL)

Yes, that is to send a Scout out of the current unit.  Or a "push".

The info I gave is for a "pull".  You can bring a Scout into your unit with that procedure.

1 hour ago, MikeS72 said:

Either the parent or a key 3 member of the pack can initiate the transfer in my.scouting, which will then require a key 3 member of the troop to accept him.

Hmmm... recent changes to my.scouting.org?  In-Council Transfer Application not accessible directly from the page...

Anywho, you can do an In-Council Transfer through Scoutbook (SB).  Look at the bottom of your unit roster in SB and you will see the In-Council Transfer button.

This will take you to the my.scouting.org Organization Manager Transfer-In Application.

You'll need:

- Youth Member ID

- Youth Member First Name

- Youth Member Last Name

- Youth Member Date of Birth

We get these info bits from the parents, when we have a conversation to get their verbal permission to transfer them over.  (Of course, you'll need to be in a role that gives you access to the Organization Manager tools for your unit.)

These electronic transfers make life really easy!!  And our Registrar loves that we reduce her paperwork!

WARNING:  Make sure the AOL is updated before you transfer them.  If you neglect this step, you will need Registrar intervention to put the AOL in their record.

1 minute ago, scoutldr said:

You are correct, as soon as he submits a properly signed transfer app, his Cub Scout career is over and he is a Boy Scout, with all that goes with it.  

You do not need an app.  Just transfer through my.scouting

And here is an alternative view...

https://raymondsrants.medium.com/the-issue-with-affinity-groups-985b46848796

7 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

We wouldn't allow a youth not in Cubs to attend any activity other than a troop meeting (and, depending on the agenda for a troop meeting, there potentially could be things we wouldn't let them participate in- knife making night, probably not; knot skills, OK) without being actively registered through the troop. They don't really know us, don't really know our expectations (and neither does the parent), and we don't necessarily know enough about the youth.

Understood. We would, and do.

Absolutely nothing wrong with having a recruit attend an overnighter.  It is well under the umbrella of all things Scouting...  they are covered by insurance, have parental permission, and must have a medical form A&B.

What a wonderful way for them to get to know us, see what is expected of them, and learn about the youth...

The question was really about the Cub Scout-iness of the situation.

So, a parent of a WEBELOS just asked if his son could attend an upcoming Troop camping trip.  The WEBELOS is 11 years old. His WEBELOS den is still working on AOL, with no real end goal in sight.  The Scout wants to cross over and is thinking about abandoning the AOL program....

The G2SS says Cub Scouts must attend with a parent. (among other restrictions).

So, given that, at any moment, this Scout could join the Troop if he wishes, he should be able to make this trip, and without a parent, correct?

(nod to @qwazse, I know, I know, Rule #1 (Don’t ask for a rule, you’ll live to regret it.) )

My thinking is that he is fine to come with us if he meets any of the Scouts, BSA joining criteria:  1) 10 years old and fifth grade, after 01 March; 2) 10 years and and completed AOL ; 3)  11 years old.  His status as a registered Cub Scout is irrelevant at the 11 year old point.  That is, if he was not registered in Cub Scouts, and was walking in off the street, he is welcome to go on a Scout camping trip, and is covered under the auspices of BSA due to "intent to join".

"Youth can join Scouts BSA if they are at least 10 years old, currently in the fifth grade and register on or after March 1st; OR have earned the Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old, OR are age 11 but have not reached age 18."  https://www.scouting.org/programs/scouts-bsa/faqs/

Thoughts or observations?

I have re-read the entire thread, and find the discourse generally civil.

Here is a primer:

What is not civil discourse?     Being disrespectful is not engaging in civil discourse. Here are some disrespectful behaviors that are typically considered out of bounds: profanity, name-calling*, derogatory terms (stupid, ignorant…), shouting, insulting body language (such as eye-rolling), insulting tone of voice (baby talk, speaking “down” to a person), ridicule, open hostility, biting sarcasm, any other disrespectful acts or ad hominem attacks, threats, or any behavior that could get a person banned from a social media site. A central theme of disrespectful discourse is that it employs tactics designed to dismiss the other person, rather than engage with the other argument.     

https://www.socialstudies.org/sites/default/files/guide_to_civil_discourse_student_version.pdf

Some examples of uncivil discourse in the thread are: 1) implying people are conspiracy theorists, 2) trying to derail the OP by accusing them of engaging in the rhetoric of "culture war", and 3) not answering the OP question, but instead, trying to dismiss him by asking tangential (and sometimes unrelated) questions in order to undermine the supposed premise of why he asked the question in the first place.

So, I'll re-post the OP question, and the answer I gave:

On 3/3/2024 at 2:56 PM, Mrjeff said:

So, can anyone explain to me the difference between these groups and how having segregated events develops the concept of DEI among Scouts?

On 3/4/2024 at 5:36 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

No, there isn't any explanation that does not reduce into the very behavior that those creating the group are trying to correct, stand up against, or bring attention to.

What answer to the OP question did you offer?

And three of you gave him a down arrow for even asking the question...

5 hours ago, yknot said:

Winter birding highlights are over in my neck of the woods, but spring migration brings plenty to look at, even at night: 

Birdcast went live March 1 for the spring migration season. As noted in a fall post, it uses radar to track what is flying overhead at night and what kind of local fall out might occur in the morning. A good forecast, combined with full moon and clear skies, means scouts can birdwatch after sundown: Binoculars trained on the moon can see silhouettes of hundreds to thousands of songbirds migrating in night skies.  

https://birdcast.info/migration-tools/live-migration-maps/

American woodcock have made an appearance at most of our March campouts over the years, and have often peaked interest in the Bird Study MB thanks to their breeding displays and behavior. Another species that can be studied at night, this is a link to a current migration and population research project:

https://www.woodcockmigration.org/

Sandhill Cranes are rare in many places but elsewhere in the country they stage north in huge numbers -- a sight to see. This 24 hour live cam at Rowe tracks them now through April: 

https://explore.org/livecams/birds/crane-camera

 

 

 

 

 

We have been keeping a list, since 01 Jan, of the different species we have seen in our yard so far this year.  We are up to 30. 

The Tufted Titmouse has been notably missing from our feeding stations this winter.  They have been quite plentiful in the past.  Our birding neighbors have noticed the same.  

Their absence is a mystery.

Anyone else seeing a decline of these?

Post script: Appears West Nile Virus may be one factor:  https://www.rappnews.com/wildideas/wild-ideas-disappearing-birds-are-we-once-again-facing-a-silent-spring/article_e5bb42b6-0254-11ea-9624-db770acf0ef4.html

16 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I doubt I am interpreting what you said here the way you meant it, because I just heard "Yes, atheists that don't belong to an organized religion are still being excluded from scouting with the BSA, and so we should remedy that".

I was responding to @Navybone question:

18 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

We should look at if BSA Scouts is excluding others, inhibiting opportunities for scouts or scouters.  

BSA is excluding others, based on religious beliefs.  It does have the right to do so...

I hold Christian beliefs.  I do not accept the beliefs of other religions.  But, I tolerate them. 

All people have a right to believe as their conscience dictates.  And I vigorously defend that right.  (But it doesn't mean I have to accept it.)  BSA should not prohibit membership of atheists. 

It can still adhere to the Declaration of Religious Principle.  It can still ask Scouts to define what they mean by "morally straight" and what the foundations of their moral code are.

---------------------------

Creating affinity groups in and of itself is not wrong.  But, if a cultural climate exists where a group could not create say a "HMSC" affinity group (Heterosexual, monogamous, sexually chaste), then we have a problem.

If a cultural climate exists where a group could not create an affinity group for "Men in Scouting", to celebrate the differences and strengths that men bring to the table, then we have problem.

If a cultural climate exists where a group could not create an affinity group for White people, then we have a problem.

"Houston, we have a problem."  Or should I say "Irving, we have a problem."?  (It is still in Texas, so should be OK 😜 )

4 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I agree completely. Let's do that instead of starting conversations with culture war rhetoric with little connection to scouting.

And yet you do it again 😜

All models are wrong.  But some are useful.

https://billmoyers.com/episode/how-do-conservatives-and-liberals-see-the-world/

8 hours ago, skeptic said:

we would not do it for Scouting related service.

Setting up tents at an Ordeal weekend, no...

But working on conservation related projects at a Scout camp? Sure!  That is a benefit to everyone outside the confines of the Scout camp.

Planting trees at your Scout camp for a reforestation project, you would not count?  Even though something like that would count for the Distinguished Conservation Service Award?

The hours must have been done while registered as a member of the BSA.

Other than that, no problem double, triple, quadruple counting...

Yes, quadruple... I have counted hours for a Scout simultaneously for Star rank, 50-miler award, Historic Trails award, and National Park Service Scout Ranger Award.

2 minutes ago, Navybone said:

I am not asking about random companies around the country, this is a forum on scouts and scouting.  Let's focus on that. We should look at if BSA Scouts is excluding others, inhibiting opportunities for scouts or scouters.  

Atheists.  Mike drop.

On 3/10/2024 at 11:24 AM, swilliams said:

Thank you, @InquisitiveScouter and @RememberSchiff for this!  Son created an account and posted here.  Let him know if the link should be posted in a different spot.    I guess I need to be careful now what I say, since he'll be able to read this forum. 🤣

Almost half way there already!!

I do not employ FAQ when applying rules....

If it is that important, write it into the rule...