InquisitiveScouter

20 hours ago, Calion said:

Okay, who knows just what the SPL should do to call for patrol yells?

Now @Calion is just trolling.  No further responses needed for this one.  "Don't feed the trolls."

8 minutes ago, Calion said:

Cool! How is that done?

By doing it.

A 2015 council-sanctioned event:

https://patch.com/new-jersey/baskingridge/cub-scout-pack-451-camps-out-rides-hovercrafts

"Then the boys put on their helmets and rode hovercrafts across the gym floor—Back to the Future style."

This is what ours looks like!

https://m.facebook.com/Troop276ByramNJ/videos/hovercraft-building/1015360082344677/

And another!  But this guy is whipping it around in a "target rich environment"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTQjchn1KHE&ab_channel=videopapa

7 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

OK, so electric bikes are now verboten, surely we can still use these nifty electric hovercrafts.

 

 

I know this is off topic, and as a moderator I should know better, but I couldn't resist.

 

Not off topic at all!  We have a home-made hovercraft we ride during our Webelos Open House recruiting event.  It is an electric leaf blower mounted on a large plywood disc with a plastic sheet for a skirt.  We have it on a tether for safety.  The kids love it!  Wish I had a video.

Oh, Lord!! Is that a "vehicle"???... I guess it is... so now that's prohibited, too!

Here's the concept... (ours works much better)

https://www.facebook.com/Pack109ValleyStream/videos/-bullyhovercraft-project/1031681453610163/

@RichardB, what is the best way for us to give constructive feedback regarding the G2SS (and related policies)?

Should that feedback be funneled to you, or somehow to another office of the BSA staff, or through our local council as a starting point?

I sincerely hope the answer is not the last, as, over the years, I have had many valid concerns and observations disappear into that black hole.  Most councils are very much afraid of seeming to have dirty laundry, and avoid (or ignore) these exchanges like the plague.  (Why is that?)

Thanks in advance for taking to time to share your thoughts & observations.

Just now, MattR said:

When I was young we used the inside of the car as a jungle gym, while on the highway.

We used the bed of the pickup truck 😛 

Thank you for answering.  Your method of clarifying never ceases to amuse.

50 minutes ago, Calion said:

I see. So none of the experienced adults here have any idea how this can be done successfully, but we expect a 14-year-old to figure out how to do it on his own.

Shall we have Scouts figure out how to tie knots without instruction as well?

I'm not convinced you do see.

Here is the way for you to do this successfully:

1.  Convince the SPL (& PLC) of the need for Patrol Yells.  If you need to convince them, "appeal to the resource" like I did in my post above (copied here for you.)

------------------------

If they don't have a yell, then they are not a patrol.  It is part of the Patrol Method.

Just now, Calion said:

Let’s go back to my original problem:

 

There is no prescribed "when or how."

That's why I said "Yes" to all your presented situations and all those of the other posters.

The original problem is actually only this:  Your patrols are not doing patrol yells.

Now, for your Scouts, that may not be an actual problem, because they could think it is goofy, stupid, and unnecessary.

But, I would argue, patrol yells are fundamental to the Patrol Method.

Does your SPL see the need for Patrol Yells?  If not, start there.

If your SPL agrees they should be done, then just challenge him to find a way to implement.

This is not really something for you to solve for them.

25 minutes ago, RichardB said:

The following medical contraindications are based on BSA operational considerations and may be more conservative than those listed in the “Diving Medical Guidance to the Physician.”

Emphasis added above.  

Yes I know those, but that did not really address the question.

Is a physician signature required on the agency form for all BSA SCUBA participants, whether the agency requires it or not?

That is, if a participant has NO medical contraindications, must they still be cleared by a physician, with a signature on the agency form?

@RichardB, the current online version (Feb 2023) (and Feb 2022 download version) incorporated a change in BSA SCUBA Policy, Medical Contraindications section.

Currently, prior to doing SCUBA events, each participant must complete the specific dive agency's medical form with the following additional instruction.  "The BSA requires review and approval of the completed form by a physician."

The last time we conducted a SCUBA event, the 2019 policy applied, and it was written thus: "The BSA requires review and approval of the completed form by a physician even if the scuba agency itself does not require physician approval." (emphasis added)

All SCUBA agency forms have the diver fill out a more detailed questionnaire (than BSA AHMR covers), but, if there are no "contraindications", then these agencies themselves say on their forms that no doctor signature is required.  I have attached the PADI form as an example.

Under the questions, it says,

"If you answered NO to all 10 questions above, a medical evaluation is not required. Please read and agree to the participant statement below by signing and dating it." (emphasis added)

Even under the old policy, the Summer Camp our Scouts attended for SCUBA did not enforce the 2019 BSA policy requiring the physician signature.  (We did at our unit level, but divers from other units did not have a physician's signature.  I pointed this out to the Camp Director (a professional), but he told me he wasn't going to enforce it because the commercial vendor conducting the SCUBA at the camp did not require it.  When I filled out our camp survey, I documented this for their council review process, but never heard anything of it afterward.)

As I read the current policy, it still seems BSA wants a physician's clearance for all participants. (That is, to have page 3 signed by the provider, regardless of medical status.) So, why eliminate the "...even if the scuba agency itself does not require physician approval." which seemed much more clear?

Can you shed any light on this?? Am I interpreting the update incorrectly?

P.S.  Before our last event, I spent almost an hour on the phone with the SCUBA policy expert at Sea Base clarifying the 2019 requirements for diver to instructor & certified-adult ratios (which is clarified better in the newer policies.)

10346E_Diver_Medical_Form.pdf

13 minutes ago, jcousino said:

to part of that question my state does not treat them as motorized vehicles until they are greater than 750 watt. So are much greater

OK, I can see where that might need clarifying, then.

Just learned today that E-bikes are now specifically prohibited.  I guess BSA had that question posed several times, even though it is obviously a "motorized vehicle."

February 2023 version, Prohibited Activities, Item 6 (no page available yet, as updated pdf is not posted for download):

6.  Motorized vehicles used as program or activities—including all-terrain vehicles (ATVs), off-road vehicles, motorized personal watercraft (PWC), snowmobiles, E-Bikes and motorized speed events (exceptions: council-approved ATV and PWC programs that comply with National Camp Accreditation Program [NCAP] standards; go-karting conducted at a commercial facility that provides equipment and supervision of cart operation; youth completing the Motorboating merit badge)

This specific prohibition was not listed in the Feb 2022 download version (still available at the pdf link online.)

There are a lot of different threads relating to specific policies or activities discussed in the Guide to Safe Scouting.  As this is a fundamental document in BSA literature, I thought we might have a thread with just that title.  @John-in-KC had created some threads with the dated versions, but I think it might be useful to have an enduring topic with all things "Guide to Safe Scouting."  Please include in your posts the version date, section, and page for reference, so folks may easily find source info on their own.

From time to time, I review the G2SS, and I always seem to find something new that I had not noticed before, that might also be useful to others.  I intend to post those here instead of in new threads...

9 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Folks,

Dopes anyone know anything about the "special pathway to Eagle Scout for those whose journey was interrupted during their time in Scouting?" I have a Scouter who is a CSA survivor, and quit after being assaulted. He was not involved in the lawsuit as he did not beleive BSA was liable and his assailant has been dead a while now.

 

First I heard of it also.

Was part of BSA PR releases yesterday: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/the-boy-scouts-of-america-bsa-announces-confirmation-of-plan-of-reorganization-and-emergence-from-chapter-11-bankruptcy-to-equitably-compensate-survivors-while-ensuring-scouting-continues-across-the-country-301802086.html

1 hour ago, Calion said:

Okay, these are good ideas, but when the patrols give their yells when forming up, just when and how do they do it? What does the SPL say to trigger these yells? Are they all done at the same time?

YES!  To all the above, and more!

Would you believe I actually had a professional Scouter once tell me I had "too much Scout spirit"???   Could have knocked me over with a feather 😜 

2 hours ago, Tron said:

don't let "the way we always did it" or "historically" restrict your packs function and form

Or, "the way I was taught..."

This mindset is death to any organization.

Better yet, "What does the book say?", and "What makes sense?", and "Why not?" (versus "Why?")

10 minutes ago, Tron said:

Also helps if every patrol has a patrol yell

If they don't have a yell, then they are not a patrol.  It is part of the Patrol Method.

Scout Handbook, page 26:

"Patrols have yells, too.  If your patrol is named for an animal, you can use that animal's sound - the howl of a wolf, for example, or the hoot of an howl.  Or your patrol might decide on some other shout that identifies it.  Members can give the patrol yell whenever they do well in a troop competition or reach an important goal, and even when they're ready to chow down on a camp meal."

(Reading between the lines... not optional...)

Scout rank requirements:

3b. Become familiar with your patrol name, emblem, flag, and yell. Explain how these items create patrol spirit.

National Honor Patrol Award requirements:

1. Have a patrol name, flag, and yell. Put the patrol design on equipment and use the patrol yell. Keep patrol records up-to-date.

This is the way.

36 minutes ago, SSScout said:

NONE of them could say what the last two stars represented. Or when.... 

We... are... doomed...

We do it at all meeting openings and whenever we gather for an activity.

The adults have a "Patrol Yell" also...

"Ask your Patrol Leader!!!

Transferring is no cost.  Do you know of another good unit nearby?

Greetings @ASMPeter!  And welcome to the forum!

Congratulations to your daughter on these impressive achievements!  And I know what it takes as a parent to guide them on their road to these recognitions, so good on you, too!

Congratulations also on your first post stirring up the old hornet's nest!  I love it.

You'll find here two kinds of folks:   the letter of the law, and the spirit of law.  The letter of the law folks will tell you, NO!, if it isn't written in the Guide to Awards and Insignia, then you are wrong to do it.

The spirit of the law folks, are more aligned with the thinking you have already displayed with that simple question:  If a Scout can wear her Gold Award pin on the Venturing uniform, then can she wear it on her Scouts, BSA uniform?

I agree with your premise that this is most likely an oversight in editing to update publications to accommodate changes in membership policies.

If you were to push this up the chain to National for adjudication, you'd most likely never get an answer, as this is not really a big issue for them.  They'll focus on other things.

If you read further in the G2AI, you'll see this:

Awards From Other Scouting Associations Scouters occasionally receive awards from Scouting associations of other nations, and it is important that they know how these awards should be worn. This does not include jamboree patches. Following are the regulations for wearing such awards: 1. They are always worn when visiting the country whose Scouting association presented the award or when attending a meeting or function attended by Scouters from that country. 2. Medals awarded by other associations are worn above the left breast pocket.

Based on the spirit of that excerpt also (because it applies to Scouters vs Scouts), IMO, she could wear the pin on her Scouts BSA uniform.  This is a "Medal awarded by other association"

However, she should not wear the faux knot from the 29 Jan 2020 post, as that is not a BSA supply division knot created to recognize that specific achievement.

Although program reciprocity would be nice, what the GSUSA allows is irrelevant to your question.

To expand the discussion, the BSA ought to allow the wearing of Congressional Award and Duke of Edinburgh award also.

Thanks for asking the question and being willing to endure the down arrows you'll get.

Happy Scouting!

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

my friends had no idea what garlic was for

And yet, you named them "friends"... the horror 😛 LOL

19 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I don't have much experience with either BSA councils or national yet, but neither have responded to emails I've sent requesting information, offering help, or making requests other than when a CC started the conversation.

Maybe they're busy. Maybe not. Either way it's not clear that they are reachable.

Email them telling them you want to know how to donate $1000.  They'll get back to you really fast 😜

Of course, when they get back to you, you then ask your questions.  When they ask about the money, just say, "Oh, I wanted to know HOW to make a donation so, in the future, if I should decide to do so, I'll know how.   Thanks!"