InquisitiveScouter

From the income by zip code finder https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/

By any stats you look at for our zip code (and surrounding) our SE is way overpaid... top 20% of households!, not just single income earners.  Our SE salary is double the median for individual income.

Again, when people ask me if they should donate to council, I point these numbers out, so they can make an informed decision.  If they ask for advice, I suggest they give it directly to a unit, or put their money elsewhere to do good in our community.

P.S.  Just checked... our SE makes 50% more than the CEO of our local land preservation trust.  This land trust has twice the employees, outright owns over 1500 acres throughout 50 properties, many with historic buildings in preservation.  They recruit a small army of volunteers to help maintain these properties.  They manage conservation easements on 16,000 more acres, and put on many more events during the year than our council does, including day camps for kids (focusing on environmental education) throughout the summer.  (They do not do an overnight camp, though.)

Council total assets is $6.6M, with revenue of $939K.  Land preservation trust assets are $27.4M, with revenue of $7.4M.

Might be apples to oranges, but I think it is a near-comparison.

Talk with the Committee Chair (CC) first, privately.

If that doesn't soothe things over, ask someone else who has clashed with them to speak with them privately.  The message might begin to get through.

Do not double-team or call them out in public.  It will only make matters worse.

If the behavior is destroying the Pack, take the other person/persons who have clashed with the CC, and go have a tactful conversation with the Chartered Organization Representative (COR).  Before you do this, have a plan for what to do next.  Who is going to be the next Committee Chair?  If you cannot answer that question, then all you are doing is pulling the pin on the hand grenade and tossing it in the COR's lap.  (Be a part of the solution rather than part of the problem.)

When you have the next person wo is willing to take on the role of CC, and a group of like-minded people to talk with the COR, ask the COR to speak with the CC to either modify behavior or step down.

Adults ruin Scouting.

Best wishes...

59 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

At one time the scout camp lands were just that, land. Scouts would go and camp in the woods and paddle the lakes just like if they were on national or state forest lands. There was little to no infrastructure to maintain. With the creation of dining halls, trading posts, cabins, etc... the cost for maintainance skyrocketed.

Ironically to help pay for these costs, many councils sold public easements to states so that during non-camp times the general public could use the lands for hunting, fishing and camping outside the "main camp", ie the woods and forests. So the general public now uses the unimproved forests for the same experiences the scouts used to use them for generations ago  to help pay for the scouts to have more indoor facilities. 

But, we have to create the country club!

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Could we have this training available online before this summer's scout camps and National Jamboree ?

https://us.norton.com/blog/how-to/how-to-find-hidden-cameras#

#8 is interesting.

43 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I have a strategy/philosophy question.

Why do various subunits of BSA own so much property in the first place? (That needs maintenance and general expenditures.) Why don't we just use public lands, tents, and our own two legs (and maybe a paddle)?

Much of the land was donated.  And often, much of the infrastructure.  Many of these properties  were given in perpetuity for use of Scouts or with some other type of restrictions or directed donation.  I have heard anecdotes from Scouters across the country relating instances where councils have sold properties under such restrictions, after waiting a few decades until people forget or donors have passed away, but I have never seen such restrictions in writing on a deed in order to verify those claims. 

Can anyone here provide concrete examples of that practice?

This type of restriction is also said to be on the deeds to Philmont.  Again, I have never seen them, and the OA site mentions only some minor stipulations... https://oa-bsa.org/history/waite-phillips

The Waite and Genevieve Phillips Foundation did file with the bankruptcy court to be given all documents in the bankruptcy, ostensibly to protect their interests in Philmont:

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/839320_1093.pdf

5 minutes ago, SNEScouter said:

council employees are necessary to train leaders, implement programs,  and supervise and support units. 

Training... done by volunteers

Programs (except Summer Camp)... planned and done by volunteers

Supervise units??... Unit supervision is done by unit volunteers

Support units??... done by Commissioners, when they exist.  Council support to units comes in the form of Registrar functions, and local Scout Shop... both of which could be done at the national level by adopting technology.

Additional fees are tacked on to Training courses, to help fund council employees

Additional fees are tacked on to programs (camporees, merit badge colleges, University of Scouting, etc.), to help fund council

Guess who did the legwork for each of the last seven years to get our Annual Charter Agreement finished and turned in?  I did.  Most of that time, we have had no DE.  Many units are operating with no charter agreement for several months after recharter, until someone at council gets around to correcting the deficiency, and back-dates the Charter Agreements.  I call that playing with fire, liability-wise.

21 hours ago, Nate_m said:

Also, our Scoutbook reports have been inaccurately setting up our PO's including missing an entire den's worth of one adventure. We are going to use a manual tracker as a safety net because of all the issues we've seen with Scoutbook this year. It's created a lot of go-back work for us. 

@Nate_m, when you look at the list of Dens in Scoutbook, each should have a green check mark by it.  It looks like this:

I suspect the missing Den does not have that check mark.  If this is the case, then open that Den and look at the list of options below the name list.  Find "Edit Den"  Open that and "Approve Den" and save.  That might fix the issue.

Also, to be clear... we do not set up actual individual accounts for Scouts.  It is simply money in the Troop account that is earmarked for use by the Scout.  Money does not go from Troop account #12345 to Scout account #67890.  All money stays in and is paid from Troop account #12345.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/12/03/individual-scout-accounts/

@Nate_m, you are missing the fundamental premise.

ALL, repeat ALL, monies fundraised belong to the Chartering Organization.  Period.  Those monies NEVER belong to the Scout, nor to the Unit!!

Now, that said, a CO is allowed to use SOME, repeat SOME, of the monies fundraised for the benefit of individual Scouts, and SOLELY for Scouting purposes.  The IRS sets the rules for this.  In a nutshell, a Scout may not receive a substantial benefit, although the IRS has never defined exactly what a "substantial benefit" is.  It is a gray area.  We can go deep down that rabbit hole if you like...

The Unit Committee is acting on behalf of the CO when developing financial policies for sharing fundraised monies.  The CO (if they care to) has final say over the disposition of all fundraised monies.  99.99% of them let the unit figure that out.  Rarely will you hear of a CO interjecting into a Unit's business, but it has happened.

Our unit uses a 70-30 split.  So, if a Scout raises $100, $70 goes to the unit general fund, and $30 is kept for use on behalf of the Scout. 

If a Cub Scout never uses the $30, then that money may transfer over to the Troop, but only into the Scout's individual account, and not the Troop general fund.  If the Scout never uses these funds, and ceases to be a member of the unit, then, and only then, do we transfer it back to the general fund.  Fundraised monies may never be given to the individual or used to pay for items not furthering the purposes of Scouting.  In the IRS's eyes, this becomes taxable income.

If your Pack Committee has a policy in place to transfer these monies to the Troop, then you should adhere to that.  It would be best if that was in writing in some kind of by-laws or policies book the Pack keeps.  Good luck finding one 😜

Final note... it is illegal for you to transfer monies from a Pack under one CO to a Troop under another CO, without the knowledge of both CO's.  This is tantamount to theft, so please tread carefully.   This would be a donation from CO#1 to CO#2, and the financial powers that be may want some paper trail for accounting/tax purposes.

I absolutely guarantee your local council camp is in desperate need of help this summer.

Do you have a free week during the camp season?  Volunteer to work at the camp.  They will likely give you a tent and meals gratis, for your effort.

Even if you volunteer to be the lookout in the tower at the waterfront all week, it will be a great help.

Or, if you are handy, ride with the Camp Ranger for the week (or work in the shop).  There is always something that needs fixing at camp!

Summer Camp is a great place to get "visibility" with many of your local troop leaders, district, and council folks.  If you are looking to forge relationships, this is the most "bang for your buck."

If you work for a major corporation, most have a "Dollars for Doers" program, where you volunteer X amount of hours, and they donate Y amount of dollars to the charity you work for.  If you have this, volunteer at camp (knocks out the hours quickly), and have corporate send the donation to the council.

There are a million ways to do this.

Also, I totally get the reaction of others, but also totally disagree with it.  We have built a system of Youth Protection that, if followed, should help remove some of that groundless mistrust.  But, you must follow the YPT rules and Scouter Code of Conduct strictly.  Do not give anyone reason to suspect, and gradually, that wall will come down.

You will need to fill out an application for Camp Staff, and depending on your state, do background checks and some training, but that is all do-able.

Again, what state are you in?

8 hours ago, TWP said:

He also said that all the units basically have plenty of ASMs already and nobody needs one.

LOL, that's just downright dishonest...

What state are you in, please??  We need some help 😜

6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

The real question is does the individual scout get value from the $75 national and $100+ council fees which their own units are staffed by volunteers and the camp fees are separate.  

The real answer is "No."

4 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

@PACAN in Sweden. I was a regular scout with Svenska Scoutförbundet, the Swedish Scout Association, in the 90s. It's aligned both with WOSM and WAGGS. Now it's been renamed what everyone has always called it anyway, "the Scouts" (Scouterna).

Gender-segregated scouting was so long ago for us that I read 'girl scouts' and 'boy scouts' with that hyper-cheery 1950s documentary narrator voice in my head. It's just not a thing anymore, or so it feels like to me. And it's hardly just us, of course. When we were selling popcorn door to door, one family scrambled to get their Belgian exchange student who wanted to see an authentic girl scout. (Sadly for her, of course, we were just ordinary scouts.) I get it. It's exotic when it's something you've only seen on TV. 

So, I don't mean to be over the top here, it's just very difficult for me to understand why something that's unremarkable and normal and generations have been happy with would be so complicated and difficult to do somewhere else with a fairly similar culture. There are reasons I suppose, I'm just not very good at guessing and/or understanding them. In fact, I don't get why GSUSA and BSA don't just merge. I guess they's some kind of animosity there? But to me it seems like even more inefficiency to have two NSOs instead of one. Way easier to get both scouts and leaders into more active and useful groups.

 

Because sexual mores are very different here in the US.  I remember my time in Sweden, when I had discussions with many Swedes about views on sex.  Very different.  Still....

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

IMHO it is our screwed up legal system that allows lawyers to cause issues where there are none, or they are minor.  Far too many ridiculous monetary payouts for things that are mostly part of the larger human race.  The issue we face(d) likely would never have even gone to court in much of the world, and our media just makes it worse by their skewed focus on sensationalism.  

 

We def need some common sense tort reform

Because of the exorbitant cost (IMO) of most providers, I took a trip to Philmont and became a Wilderness First Aid Instructor for Emergency Care and Safety Institute, through the course at the Philmont Training Center.  Took the family with (four of us, total), and it was a great "vacation."  (Highly recommend that to everyone.  PTC has some great courses.)

Now, I am certified to teach WFA, FA, and CPR/AED.  I did have to lay out an investment in course materials and training aids... several thousand, in fact. 

I charge less than half of what any provider charges, and, over the years, the course fees have more than paid for the CPR manikins, AED trainer and supplies, and approved course materials.

I teach about one class every two months.  (Have to teach two classes per year to remain current.) For each class, I say the training (my time) is free, but the digital certificate you have to pay for 😜 

Lots of Scouts just opt for the training, to fulfill requirements for badges.  As they get older and land jobs, many pay the nominal fee to get the certificate.  Adults all get the certificates...

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

When my troop did summer camp in 2020 and we created our own program. Scouts had an absolute blast, but will not do another one because of the lack of MBs offered. Sadly one of my adults agrees with them. When I proposed doing a HA week on the AT to cut down on summer camp costs, even though that is something the Scouts wanted to do, the lack of MBs was the driving point. And my CC said it would be fun, but a waste of a summer. Sadly the focus on advancement and Eagle is causing folks to forget the fun and adventure.

I hear this, too, and it baffles me.  Realistically, 21 MB's is not difficult over a seven year span, if starting from cross-over.

When BSA allowed young ladies to join and pursue Eagle, my daughter took the challenge.  She asked me for advice on how to map out the program.  We sat down and did that, looking at a timeline to complete it in the 19 months minimum required.  She earned exactly 21 MB's, and completed the program in about 21 months, and still felt "rushed" in her words.  (Of course, she had to wait for the Inaugural Class to be recognized at the 24 month mark after joining Scouts, BSA.)  She never attended Summer Camp in BSA as a camper.  She did work one summer as staff.  Went to four years of Summer Camp as a Girl Scout.  Overall, though, she enjoyed the process (especially doing Automotive Maintenance MB with dear old Dad!)

Dear Eagle Scout son will turn 18 this month.  Has 45 MB's, and has done seven years of Summer Camp.  He only did three "Eagle-requireds" at Summer Camp:  First Aid (which I had to go over with him again because he didn't really do the requirements at camp), Swimming, and Environmental Science.   These last three years of camp were his favorite.  Going to camp, hanging out with friends, having free time to chill in Hammock Hollow (that's what they called their Patrol's hammock encampment 😜), taking only one or two badges each summer.  (of things that he really wanted to do... SCUBA, Shotgun Shooting, Wilderness Survival, Small-boat Sailing, etc.)  He said these last few years have been the best. 

Too many people focus on the destination, rather than the journey to get there.

https://mindfulambition.net/journey-over-destination/

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

Troop, District, Council and National all need to support the Patrol in words and deeds. 

But, @DuctTape , it is just so much easier if we all just do the same things together!!!  Same meals, same activities, same campsite, same trail, same badges, same skills, etc...  LOL

Can't tell you how many times I have heard that...

When was the last time you saw a summer camp that was patrol oriented?  I mean, really patrol oriented?

2 hours ago, scoutldr said:

I've sat on many EBOR as the District Rep and don't recall ever seeing any place on either the project write up or the Eagle App for an "Eagle Coach/Advisor" approval.  Have things changed?  What is the written requirement?

There is a discussion of the role in G2A and the ESSP Workbook, but G2A specifically cites the Coach as optional for the Eagle Candidate.

7 minutes ago, swilliams said:

He will be 17 in just over a month.

I just spoke to someone who is still on our Troop Committee, but is also on the list of Eagle Coaches who can be assigned by the district.  He reiterated that my son MUST work with the Unit Eagle Advisor, and told me that my son's proposal would most likely be rejected by the District if it didn't come from the Advisor.  I am beyond angry.  What are we teaching scouts with this?  My solution might just be to have him join a Troop in the next town over, which is in a different District that does not require this.  

I may decide to fight it later, but really don't have the bandwidth to start a war, particularly when I have a 15 year old who will still need to go through the process.  I'm worn down, discouraged, angry...  I can only imagine what my kid is feeling.  

There seems to be this strange idea among too many scout leaders that this is "real life" and will toughen the kid up.  I say it only teaches them that it's okay for them to be unresponsive and dismissive.  We should be leading by example, imho.

It teaches them that there are jerks in the world who desire power for power's sake.  They will have to deal with the same "in real life," but I have made a hobby out of smashing these "rice bowls" and finding ways to streamline processes.

Best wishes to you guys. 

Call the District Advancement Chair (DAC) to discuss this.

Requiring and Eagle Project Coach is adding requirements to the process, which is strictly forbidden.

When you talk with the DAC, ask if the District has someone who will review his paperwork as Eagle Project Coach.  Tactfully, if necessary, explain why your son does not wish to use the existing unit coach.  The District or Council may have someone who is acceptable to work with.

A phone call may clear this up.

If the DAC is adamant your Scout use the coach he does not wish to, then have your Scout submit the proposal, as is.  You follow up with a note saying you counseled your Scout on the importance of a coach, but he has declined to use one (with excerpted verbiage from the GTA).  If it comes back from District denied, then immediately start an appeal process.

There is no Eagle Project Coach signature block on the Proposal Approval page!

How old is your Scout?

National Scouting Organization?

Context?

23 hours ago, Calion said:

I’m sorry, what’s trolling?

LOL, even that question is trolling 😜

For the benefit of those you have successfully trolled:

4 hours ago, Scouterlockport said:

Thanks for adding a lot to the discussion a month or so after everyone else. My reason for the down voice is that this wonderful organization is not going to survive if we keep requiring people to have a religous creed to join in a growing non religious nation. Just like modernizing by adding female scouts, we need to look at requiring a relationship to god. Less and less people are openly religious and the advantage of those charter organizations is going away forever.

Understood.  Ever hear of the phrase "shooting the messenger"??

5 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

The merger process will continue to weed-out poor performers the way the bankruptcy has.

I eagerly await this 😜