InquisitiveScouter

4 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

In the abstract I agree, in practice I don't think it can be done in the general case. How many religions are there? How many different ways of practicing? It would suck up all available time with just a few religions.

I mean what I would want isn't a flavor, it's a completely different event. The closest thing to a Christian church service is doing a public sadhana not requiring empowerment, and even that doesn't make sense to just throw out into a crowd because even if they're Buddhist, they may not practice that specific one or do tantra at all. Lots of people stick to the sutrayana. We could all sit, and all dharmic religions could follow our own specific instructions, but then the tables are just reversed on the Abrahamic folks who don't meditate. 

This is why I think we should just leave religion to the private sphere and get on with the scouting. As BP said, it's underlying it all anyway.

This is why participation is not required.  Simply do not attend... no harm, no foul.

If you choose to attend and you realize it is not your cup of tea, then leave.

Again, if anyone ever requires participation, now we have a problem.

4 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Thank you! This is very helpful. It seems a bit rude to just leave a camp event, but if this is acceptable then that's a clear route to not having to participate in someone else's religion if all planning and checking fails.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you said about value system contortions. Would you be willing to explain? 

If you were uncomfortable with the format, content, or message, it would be perfectly acceptable to leave.

From time to time, I see Scout Camps offer a whole menu of worship services... Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or the "Non-denominational" catch all.

I have walked out of services before, due to matters of conscience.  I do not consider it rude at all...

1 minute ago, DannyG said:

The only other option is to stay back at camp by yourself while the rest of camp goes to the service.

You could contact the organizers and offer up an alternative of whatever flavor you want.  If they turn you down, then you don't attend the event and report that to your SE.

Become a part of the solution...

4 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Absent the youths' desire, everything else is meaningless.

Back to the OP. Two words. I submitted mine.

I wish life were that easy. I have seen many Scouts over the years who didn't want to be there.  Their parents made them.  (We have a few at the moment.)  Some have changed their minds over time, and some left. 

Parents ultimately make the decision about joining Scouting, not the youth.

https://mattixdesign.com/marketing/how-to-target-multiple-audiences-and-ideal-customers

9 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

One can only aim at a single target.

Um... no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUWJ4lZ0NgQ&ab_channel=Matt"Wags"Wagner

8 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Communication tools provided to adults to help them get their kid involved is not the same as marketing to the target audience.

One can only aim at a single target.

So, if the adults are the decision-maker to sign up the kid to Little League (or Scouts), then they are certainly A target audience

So, Little League websites, social posts, email blasts, electronic newsletters, "Annual Key Touchpoints", imagery, sponsoring searches, etc. etc. etc. are all aimed at the youth??

Who knew those kids were so savvy??

https://www.littleleague.org/downloads/annual-guide-marketing-assets/

If kids just wanted to play baseball, they'd go to the park, backyard, open field, sandlot, (like we did as kids) and hit the ball around.

5 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

How do I know what kind of religious content is part of an event like that that's organized by people outside my own unit?

Ask.

Also, you are not required to attend any of these events.  If any particular camp requires you to attend some event in order to qualify for some award or recognition, you can simply go off on your own and have your own "spiritual experience" according to the tenets of your beliefs, and count that.

If anyone denied that opportunity to you, I'd gladly come and side with you to oppose them.

And although I'm not going down the metaphysical rabbit hole again 😜 I'll simply say your beliefs are your business.  And if you believe that any value system contortions are acceptable in order to participate, then have at it... I have my own garden to tend. 

Just curious... why the downvote @Scouterlockport??

44 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I am not a Christian and neither is my scout. Neither of us believe in either the old gods or the new God. My own scouting experience was secular, and I want my scout to be free to seek their own beliefs as I was.

Some of the things I'm reading here and elsewhere on the internet have rekindled my worry that Cub Scouts and Scouts BSA are, in practice, an arm of the Christian church except for in very select spots, despite the loose technical definition of "God" in the religious pledge. I can select a secular pack and troop, but I don't want to send my scout into some district Christian recruiting camp, or give them the impression that scouting is Christian. How can I ensure that I don't do this by mistake? Are some councils more prone to having Christianity be part of events than others? Does it depend on the people organizing? How do other non-Christians navigate all the Christianity everywhere?

I do not believe you have to worry about this...

For example, we have Hindus, Muslims, one Buddhist, Jews, Protestants, and Catholics (Roman and Eastern Orthodox) in our Troop.  We all get along together 😜

The Scout Oath does have a phrase each Scout promises, "On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law,..."  This is the first part of the Scout Oath.  The 12th point of the Scout Law is, "A Scout is Reverent."

At each rank milestone along his Scouting journey, your Scout will be asked to define what he believes to be his duty to God.  This is totally under the purview of you as his parents, and the Scout.  It is my job as an adult mentor to challenge the Scout to do this, and to challenge him to live up to what he believes his duty is.

If at any point, you find someone is trying to proselytize your Scout, you should identify this to the Troop leadership so that it can be stopped. 

However, religious-affiliated chartering organizations who use Scouting as their youth outreach program may certainly encourage Scouts to attend events that are faith-based, but they may never "require" it.  Also, questions to your Scout about his faith, and other people's sharing of their faith are fine...

A Scout is Reverent means "A Scout is reverent toward God.  He is faithful in his religious duties.  He respects the beliefs of others."  And further... "It is your duty to respect and defend their rights to their religious beliefs even when they are different from your own."

Also, you signed an application which said:

"Excerpt From the Declaration of Religious Principle

The BSA maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership."

So, basically, as the current policy is written, your Scout (or you) can not be an atheist and be a member of the BSA.

If you are, indeed, atheist, as is your right to be, there are other Scouting organizations in the US you could investigate.  One of them is Outdoor Service Guides

https://bpsa-us.org/join-us/find-a-group/

In hope this answers your question.

8 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

Yes., if the youth want to be a scout, then that is all that is necessary. There are other benefits for adults... parents, society etc, but in the end the only target audience that matters is the youth.

I love the idea, but how do we reach that as reality?

Parents are a target audience.  Without them, how would we have Scouting?

Adult volunteers are a target audience.  Without them, how would we have Scouting?

BSA National has made itself the target audience for the dollars.  Without them, we could still have Scouting 😜

13 hours ago, DuctTape said:

My two words:

 

"outdoor adventure"

These are the two words for the youth!

As I laid out earlier, there are several target audiences for Scouting, not just the youth.  Any strategies to increase membership must identify and appeal to each of those audiences.

On 3/4/2023 at 2:36 PM, Mrjeff said:

Can anyone provide a TWO WORD statement answering the question why have Scouts?  Not one word, not three words, TWO WORDS as to why have Scouts.  As I have said in the past I have never heard a youngster say that they wanted to be a Scout to learn lessons, gain maturity or become a leader.  I did hear one say that he wanted to go to the US Air Force Academy and needed to put that he was an Eagle Scout on his application.  Scouts is there to let kids have fun, period.  It's so good to stand in the background and watch kids have fun.  Watch them play, ride bikes, try new things and see new places, or just hang out and talk with friends.  That's why we have Scouts and unfortunately there isn't much of that left.  Adults have litigated, interfered and regulated a whole bunch of fun right out of the BSA.  Rather then standing on a river bank watching kids climb a tree and jump into the water, the adult has to consider the outcome of the lawsuit if someone gets hurt.  Let the kids ride their bikes?  Only if they wear a helmet,  gloves, hard soled shoe's, knee pads and elbow pads.  It's not the kids fault, all of this is brought about by the actions of self serving adults. We rode bikes in swim trunks, period.  No shirt, shoe's or gloves and we all made it.  Sure there were a lot of cuts, bruises, shinned knees and bloody noses on the boys and the girls and we made it. With all of the money spent by BSA figuring out what can't be done, perhaps some money and thought should go into the what can we do to let the kids just have fu n😞

Illuminates purpose!!

I have thought for a few days on this...  and the article below points to the why.

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/teen-girls-struggling-mental-illness-record-levels-many-persistently-sad-data-reveals

BTW, the points in this article specifically apply to males, as well.

https://www.familyeducation.com/teens/values-responsibilities/helping-teens-find-purpose

https://yourteenmag.com/health/teenager-mental-health/purposeful-lives

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_to_help_teens_find_purpose

Read those three articles, and you will find Scouting at its core.

Without a sense of purpose, life is meaningless and unfulfilling.  As Scouts mature, starting at about the 11-12 year mark, they seek this for themselves.  "Why am I here." 

I contend that Scouting helps them find their way to answer this for themselves.

2 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Ok! I’ll try to remember tonight. I’d love the feedback. I truly try to live in a robust glass house with my uniform.  

Bring it

With sleeves, too, please.

1 minute ago, mrjohns2 said:

Non-uniform wear. Done. Period. 
 

A Scout is also obedient and trustworthy. Not following the uniform standards is neither. 

Wanna send a picture of your uniform, and I'll tell you if you are in "standards"???

4 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

If you want to be ignorant, feel free to carry on as I can’t argue with chosen ignorance.

   Really, @mrjohns2???  

3 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

If you want to be ignorant, feel free to carry on as I can’t argue with chosen ignorance.

He is asking for you to educate him out of any potential ignorance...

That is not "chosen ignorance"!!

C'mon man!! A Scout is Kind!! 

11 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

At the end of the day, my feeling is if we're focusing on pins or knots on uniforms, then we must have absolutely nothing else wrong with our organization or units that could better use our attention.

Straining at a gnat, and swallowing a camel??  Love you, man... come be a part of our Troop!

21 minutes ago, SPG said:

If you can provide a reference to BSA documentation supporting this definition, then I will gladly pass it on to the leaders in our unit. However, I will refrain from enforcing any such a rule as I believe that would go against the intent of the uniform. Per the insignia guide, the uniform is intended to be a medium to display "what each youth or adult member has accomplished with program opportunities...".  I fully encourage scouts/leaders to wear a complete uniform, but I would much rather a scout/scouter wear a 90% correct unform than get hung up on such details and discourage them in the process. I tend to apply Mark's statement that "No Scout is turned away or publicly admonished because he or she isn’t wearing the right thing."

Without evidence to the contrary, I assume the term "non-uniform wear" allows such pin/awards be worn without a uniform, essentially overriding the following rule. "It is the responsibility of all leaders of the Boy Scouts of America and especially of all commissioned officers and chartered councils to cooperate with the Boy Scouts of America in preventing the use of the official uniforms by those who are not registered and in good standing."

Finally, there are a number of items that are allowed to be worn on the uniform that are not explicitly approved in the insignia guide. I see no difference with the mentor pins.  Here are just a few examples:

• Wood Badge beads. They are explicitly allowed to be worn on the Sea Scout Uniform (which is typically cleaner than other uniforms) but no mention is made of them for other uniforms.
• Belt fob and camping beads. These are sold by the scout shop and are worn by many troops but are not mentioned anywhere in the insignia guide. 
• Several lodges have pocket patch sets that cover the entire pocket instead of just the pocket flap (as approved by insignia guide).
• The insignia guide outlines that "all members" are to wear nameplates with white text on black plastic. No other reference to nameplates or nametags is made. However, commissioners wear red nameplates, the scout shop also sells leather nametags, and many wood badgers I know wear wooden laser cut nametags.  Not to mention the countless scouts/leaders that do not wear nameplates.

In summary, a lot is left up to interpretation. I have no issue if someone wears something that they earned and supports scouting ideals.

 

It is titled the "Guide to Awards and Insignia"

IMO, anything that is a "Guide" takes a far back seat to common sense and judgement...  ("Guide" to Safe Scouting anyone??)

Here're some other examples...

1.  Velcro... I put velcro on my uniform to be able to change patches when desired (like the yearly JTE, or the temp patch on the pocket, or the leadership position patch, etc).  But, if you are a uniform martinet the "Guide" says

"No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official guidelines or the Rules and Regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local council."

and that would strictly be verboten...

2.  Wood Badge beads & woggle...  Our PLC has selected a specific neckerchief for our Troop.  Our unit leaders wear the same neckerchief as our youth when we are doing unit events.  I wear my WB beads and woggle with my Troop neckerchief.  Boy, you wouldn't believe how many people this has riled up...

3.  OA Sash & ribbon without a flap...  I wear my OA sash to OA themed events, without a lodge flap.  I also wear my Vigil pin on the OA Pocket Device almost all the time, with no flap.  Again, people have tried to "correct" me on this (even on this forum).  I just smile and say "Thanks"

https://www.scoutshop.org/oa-pocket-device-604942.html

https://www.scoutshop.org/oa-vigil-of-honor-pin-604944.html

1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Totally would not fly now.

Why not?  Written correspondence is just fine

There's more than one way to skin a cat...

Among those ways...

1.  You can call your insurance company and get a temporary policy increase.  Make sure you activate it before driving the van, and make sure you remove it after coming home.  That will keep costs down.

(NOTE:  make sure you look at your policy to verify you are covered by your primary policy while you are driving a rental car.  Bring a copy of your insurance cards with you!!  Some states allow you to use a digital copy (a file or picture of the card on your smartphone).  Be Prepared!  Bring both paper and digital.)

2.  The rental car company may offer Supplemental Liability Protection (SLP).  Call them to see if they do, and at what limits.  (NOTE:  SLP means your own insurance pays primary for liability!!  If your primary policy does not cover you in a rental, you have a more complex problem to solve.)

3.  If you rent the van with your personal credit card, your card may provide some additional insurance protections.  Obviously, this is wildly variable depending on the card...

https://www.bankrate.com/insurance/car/rental-car-insurance/#does-my-credit-card-offer-rental-car-insurance

Good luck researching your options!

The best source for current knot line up is the Guide to Awards and Insignia page 64-66 in the 2022 Revision.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Scouting_Honors_And_Special_Recognitions_WEB.pdf

https://www.scouting.org/resources/insignia-guide/

To find the requirements for each knot, start on the official BSA Awards Central page, and look up by name...

https://www.scouting.org/awards/awards-central/

I recommend you only use "official" BSA requirements sources (if you can find them).  Requirements and criteria do sometimes change...

As for the Wearing-of-the-Mentor-Pins on the uniform, I do not... my shirt would weigh about eight pounds 😜

I do like the "Proud Parent" type ribbons for displaying these.  They are "non-uniform" wear, but I wear it with my uniform at Courts of Honor.  (Here's my current...)

https://www.scoutshop.org/bsa-proud-parent-multi-program-neck-ribbon-620092.html

https://www.scoutshop.org/bsa-proud-parent-ribbon-643292.html

(There are no parent pins for Summit or Quartermaster... that I know of)

As for service stars... I kept losing them, so I don't wear them any more... the clutch (or back... we called them "frogs" in the military) would come off frequently.  I have littered many a camp parade field with them 😜  

I'll start correcting adults' (and Scouts') uniforms for those when 100% of them can do any First Class skill upon demand (knots/lashings/map & compass/first aid/swimming/lifesaving/etc).  (I've been working for that goal many years... come close a few times, but then some newbie comes along and ruins it!!!)

2 hours ago, malraux said:

And I guess the real thing is who is going to look at this project plan form and why does it matter? The unit leader is the one who says it was done correctly not council/district. National certainly isn’t going to go through and care about this. The EBoR can, but the point of an eagle board is to have a friendly conversation, not an inquisition about why the project plan said it needed 200 screws but instead only used 150. This seems to be needless formalism for something that’ll never even get looked at. 
 

it might matter if the proposal were very brief and needed a bunch to get fleshed out but this doesn’t seem like the case here. 

Ostensibly, it is to make sure the Eagle Scout candidate planned the project.

A 16 year old's level of planning usually is not going to be anywhere near an adult's level of planning.

Oftentimes, I actually let the Scout experience difficulty, and then let them figure out how they are going to deal with it.  And, if they did not plan properly (did not have enough boards or bolts or cement bags, or whatever) they will learn from their mistakes.

Once the project is signed off, isn't that sufficient to say that, at some point, the planning came together so that the Scout could finish his project?

Leave that discovery for the EBoR.  Finding out what went wrong, or what obstacles were encountered in a project, and how the Scout dealt with it speaks volumes more about his personal growth than how well he planned it.  When I see a meticulously planned project, I also hold it a bit more suspect as having had too much parental or leader involvement anyway... in my experience...

2 minutes ago, malraux said:

This is a case of the adults being horrible, not the paperwork.

Agreed.