Eagle1993

Welp .... CAC has now paused the new fee schedule.  Based on feedback from parents & volunteers, Crossroads of America council has decided to pause the new fee structure.

My daughter's annual Girl Scout fee is $25.  As mentioned, 4H and other similar organizations have pretty low annual fees.  BSA thinking $300+ is reasonable is completely wrong.

Members within CAC are still upset.  The entire council volunteer corp & paid leadership approved the fee.  

Hopefully a warning to other councils think about a massive fee increase.

Thanks for the updates!

I do wonder what would happen if Purdue Pharma appeal kills the releases.  I know it is another circuit, but there is a ton of attention and change with respect to non debtor releases.  If an appeal court rejects them (Purdue had more support in terms of votes than BSA) then I wonder if either the District Court or 3rd Circuit appeals puts the breaks on the BSA plan.

I would expect plan supporters are probably hoping that either a ruling comes out backing Purdue Pharma OR the ruling is delayed until BSA has district approval and starts implementing their plan.

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

See page 22

https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/350867962_201912_990_2021021817717804.pdf

in 2019, CAC SE received $326K total compensation package.

Show that to the parents there, and see how they react to the fee increases.

LOL

Their top paid employees total comp:

SE = $326K

Deputy SE = $331K

Dir. Major Gifts = $191K

Dir. Field Ser = $182K

3 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If this chart shows what is coming next year. I fear my troop will die, as will most units in my area.  We are in an economically disadvantage area. Many families are  lower class. Over 1/2 my troop is on some type of assistance to remain registered, and the remaining family can barely afford Scouting as it is. Glad one will age out, and the other just earned Eagle, pending national approval. 

As for the $240 Adventure Fee, is that to pay for a monthly camp out at a council camp? WE can get it cheaper per person going to other, more adventurous places.

Even parents of upper class ... $340 a year is a lot when you add in the various other costs including summer camp, etc.  Asking for $50/year ... ok, they will sign up little Jimmy/Sally even if they are not super active.  $340 ... all you are left with are the scouts where scouting is their ONLY activity.  That will drop scouts to a small fraction of who is currently registered.

Petition · Prevent the Decimation of Membership of Local BSA unit in Crossroads of America · Change.org

Quote

 

Our local council, the Crossroads of America "CAC" is about to destroy scouting membership in central Indiana with the new "MODERNIZING FEE STRUCTURE FOR SCOUTING" for 2024 (See the attached image).

Total individual Scout Fee paid to the Council for Annual Recharter (Does not include unit fee) --176% Increase
2023 - $87
2024  - $240
Breakdown of Scout Fees
National -- 0% change (so far) (per member)
2023 -  $75
2024 - $75
Council Fee -- 1275% Increase (per member)
2023 -  $12
2024 - $165
New Registration Fee -- 300% Increase (per member)
2023 -  $25
2024 - $100
Unit Recharter Fee (ex. a unit of 20 memeber is $5 per member)
2023 -  $100
2024 - $0
In this uncertain economic environment, corporations are practicing degrees of fiscal responsibility to survive what could be an upcoming recession by reducing spending while keeping the most value to their customers in order to survive.  "CAC" however, has recently been on a hiring and spending spree.  This council has grown now to over 55 scout executives, expanding roles into multiple individuals, whereas other local businesses are combining roles and unfortunately reducing headcount.  The increase in hiring was even brought up as a positive aspect at our council's Governor's Luncheon last December, where businesses around Indiana are asked to attend to donate to the council's Friends of Scouting.  Many of those same businesses are laying off personnel.  

At this time, units from across our council are experiencing what many are facing nationwide; rising costs of supplies and lodging.  Many units are having to increase their unit dues or outing fees due to the rising costs of food, supplies, and fuel.  These cost increases are even coming from the BSA as you are well aware, for things like awards.  Of course, many units continue to fundraise outside of popcorn and Lord Baden Powell taught us, part of scouting is paying your own way.  However, fundraising should only be a small portion of the scouting experience.   Therefore, many units are cutting back on costs, not participating in all the activities they may have had in the past, to help ensure the greatest mass of scouts can have scouting experiences.  But not Crossroads of American councils, they are spending on major projects, moving forward with building projects, which will provide an improvement for scouts, but are being done at a time when construction costs are rising.  Lastly in that is the Air Show that our council is creating for 2023.  The airport stopped producing this air show in 2013 due to low profits and even losses.  While an awesome opportunity for scouts to attend, the selection of the last weekend in October and other factors have many of us concerned, especially with the associated cost of producing such an event. 

We have no doubt that the council will help those in the greatest need, those being the families on government assistance so they can afford at least part of scouting.  Our concern is not as much because of that fact.  We are concerned about the group of families that fall into the income bracket above government assistance, but where an additional $240-$340 a year per scout is out of the question.  A cost that is compounded if they have multiple youths in the BSA.  These are youth that we already see skipping outings or extracurricular events due to cost constraints.  Cub Scouts whose parents are already opting them out of summer camp due to costs.  This plan that is being implemented is pricing out a portion of the Middle Class.  

Combine these costs with an increase in summer camp fees that are far greater than any surrounding council, and many of the families we stated above will simply leave as their children will only feel left behind.

 

Look at this cost structure.  $340 per year in Crossroads of America.  Seems a bit steep..

I'm not sure how other Troops handle this but we make it clear that nothing is official until we hear from National.  We do not have anyone wear the patch until we have the kit from National.  

Now, in all my years, I haven't had a case where National rejected the Eagle app but it can happen.

4 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Yeah, I would have been happy to donate my time and talent to work at the jamboree.

Just not going to pay $1200 for the privilege. (Plus travel costs to and fro.)

https://jamboree.scouting.org/jamboree-service-team/

We had an ASM who volunteered for years.  He led one of the groups at Jambo and his out of pocket was over $5K per jambo.  That included air travel & hotels in Dallas to prepare.  At some point, they ask far too much from volunteers.

7 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Wow, are you sure that was their target?

15K seems really low.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2013/08/26/putting-jamboree-attendance-numbers-in-historical-perspective/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Scout_jamboree_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)

Reports from some on Facebook indicate they are almost at 14,500 and have set a limit of 15,000 scouts due to staffing limits.  

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

We have a lot of open spaces for jambo in our council.  Wonder why Scouts aren't going? (No, I'm not wondering, really...)

Rumor is National Jamboree almost hit their limit 15,000 scouts.  

1 hour ago, malraux said:

Out of question, do you know when these changes will get rolled out? I’ve got a day camp to plan out and I’d like it if I can be ready for whatever is coming. I suspect the plan is to have these changes for next program year but that’ll start with day camp. 

I was told after bankruptcy is closed out.  

I wouldn't worry about planning for these yet. I heard of these second hand and the final implementation may be different. That said, change is coming. Costs, tools, program, leadership, councils, COs, camps, etc. could all be impacted.  BSA, while having a decent recruiting year, considers themselves at war (per a slide displayed in bankruptcy).  The insurance company lawyer asked about the war reference and BSA rep didn't really answer.   I think BSA sees themselves at war with survival.  They will not survive if changes are not made.  Their debt burden and costs are simply too high.  Another slide alluded to an opinion that the changes can not be democratic.  So, councils will be forced to merge, programs will change. 

If I hear of rumors I'll post them here. Not to cause disruption but to get feedback from experienced scouters.  Perhaps some in National could see the comments as an early indication of acceptance or at least areas of concern.  

I'm not taking any action at my unit level other than preparing my Committee that we may need to be flexible over the next couple of years. Not much else to do until we hear details.

I would be careful with the topics of requirement 6.  In particular, I would avoid those discussions with other scouts present.  Some families may not want their dirty laundry shared with the Troop.

Quote

Some of the issues surrounding requirement 6 for the family meeting could be considered of a personal nature. Use discretion when reviewing this requirement with the Scout.

family_life.pdf (scouting.org)

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

If only all that money BSA poured into the cash sink that is Summit (north of $750 million) was available and had NOT been dumped by the truckload in West Virginia

After a few billion dollar mistakes it starts adding up to a lot of money.  

5 hours ago, Eagle1970 said:

In the case at hand, what is the probability of Chapter 7?

Low chance ... even after they burn through their own cash, National BSA can definitely pull money from councils.  Ch7 is a disaster. 

33 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

During bankruptcy, BSA was clear that Jamborees and HA bases are profitable.  Cash flow is typically positive early from what I see.  They take in high fees up front and expenses drain that down later. 

To be clear, they really need to be cash flow positive. Those are expensive facilities that require significant funds to maintain plus are under a mountain of debt.   If you take into account the full balance sheet including debt and depreciation I bet the outcome is closer to 0 to negative... but short term positive on the cash side.  This is just a guess. 

9 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I wonder if the Jamboree with help or hurt cash flow even if net zero? I guess hurt as they aren’t likely to be extended credit? 

During bankruptcy, BSA was clear that Jamborees and HA bases are profitable.  Cash flow is typically positive early from what I see.  They take in high fees up front and expenses drain that down later. 

Big week in the bankruptcy case.  Feb 9th and 10th will be the appeals hearing.  As mentioned, this will not be over zoom so we will have to wait to hear reporters take (unless any forum members attend).  

25 minutes ago, DannyG said:

It doesn't mean you can actually tie a taut-line hitch; it means your tried and gave it your best shot. In order to fulfill the requirement for Scout rank, you have to show you have the ability to tie the knot.

AOL, Scout & Tenderfoot all have the same knot requirements.   To me, it makes more sense to have a new scout who earned AOL work immediately on the Tenderfoot version than simply repeating it for Scout rank and then again for Tenderfoot.

They added Scout rank (requirements) in 2016.  I think the rank makes sense for someone brand new to scouting.  Awarding an AOL scout with Scout rank is an indication they likely already know the very basics of being a scout.  Similar to the Military having Eagle scouts start at E-3.

1 minute ago, KublaiKen said:

While AOL and Scout appear identical, there is actually a universe between them. They may be doing the exact same things, but the first time it was signed off by a grown-up and the second time by another Scout. I don't think that step should be diminished or lost, because it probably really helps the new Scout understand the seismic shift. And while I know the SMC is by no means contingent upon advancement, I do like that one is required right out of the gate. Not necessary, but then maybe it is for some.

I wouldn't mind requiring SMC at the transition, but don't make them jump through the same hoops.  There is not a single scout requirement that expands beyond what they did as AOL (or could have done).   Have them start immediately focusing on Tenderfoot vs redoing AOL. They can see the benefits of having another scout sign off on requirements while working on Tenderfoot.  I personally see Scout as a momentum killer and a relatively boring introduction into Scouts BSA for someone who earned AOL.

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

My Comments in RED

I hope only up to AOL. IHMO trying to cram 8 adventures before Crossover could be a challenge and lead to pencilwhipping.

 

I believe that was how it was prior to some time in the 1970s. I know my brothers had Bobcat pins

 

DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This will set us back 30+ years.  Prior to 1989, Webelos and AOL was 9-12 months total. Studies showed that 9-12 months was not enough time to transition, hence the reason Webelos became am 18-24 month program, to better transition to Scouts.

THIS WILL REALLY SCREW UP THE TRANSITION PROCESS!

If national really wants to fix the problem,  make Scouting Adventure required for Webelos, and actually force Webelos Dens to begin the transition process.

But hey, what do I know. I just been around 40 years, saw when this change occurred, and how much better new Scouts were overall. Yeah, we did have some challenges. But not like today.  And Live, in person training needs to happen to emphasize the importance of the transition.

 

That is how it was in the mid 1980s. I remember just after Crossing Over, going to my first meeting and getting my Scout signed off and starting my tenure for Tenderfoot.

 

It will be interesting to see what this change really means.  I like your idea ... if 4th graders get a taste of Scouts BSA by having to earn scouting adventure and then AOL is really heavily focused on transitioning into Scouts BSA.  If Webelos is just 1 more year of pure Cub Scouts and AOL is the 1st time anyone starts really preparing for transition to Scouts BSA ... the truth is that AOL transfer in Feb - May ... so that would mean only 6-8 months.

Now, to be fair, I see many packs not spend much time on transition to Scouts BSA until late in 5th grade.  So, on the ground, pushing AOL scouts earlier (in September) may actually give them more time to transition vs what many packs/Troops see today.

So ... I'm not aware of all of the changes.  Some that may be coming ...

• Every rank will switch to 6 required adventures and 2 electives.  It is not clear if this is the correct #s; however, what was made clear is every rank will have the identical # of required & elective adventures.
• Bobcat is no longer a rank, it will be an adventure that must be earned for every rank
• Webelos & AOL will be completely separate.  Webelos will go to 1 year.  AOL will be full focused on bridging to scouts BSA and much more focus will be on linking AOL scouts to a Scouts BSA Troop.
• If a scout earns AOL, when they cross over to Scouts BSA, they automatically earn Scout rank.

I understand there are/could be other changes coming, but I have not heard of any changes to how the Pack functions or Lions/Tigers

The 1st change listed in meh to me.  I don't see much of an impact. 

The 2nd change ... not a bad idea to me.  Scouts should go through the bobcat requirements frequently.  Perhaps the uniform changes where Lions, Tigers, Wolves and Bears each have their own square.

The 3rd change ... if implemented well could be a win.  It should be operating this way already, but I expect it could help some Packs/Dens realize the importance of the this transition vs having it be 1 adventure.

The 4th change ... I'm a big fan of this one.  Earn AOL you should have done everything required for Scout Rank anyway and it gets them moving in Scouts BSA rank advancement.

Thoughts on these possible changes (still just a rumor).  Personally ... I don't think it is enough; however, I would like to learn more about the AOL change which could have a fairly significant impact.

I went back and hid the comment along with the back and forth as it distracted from the original discussion.  

BSA financials released for end of Dec.  Summary below of BSA's net unrestricted liquidity (combination of cash on hand + unrestricted investments).  Dec/January is typically the peak and then liquidity drop as insurance premium is paid and income drops.  Bankruptcy costs have been dropping but I expect that to pick up ... plus they will need to make some payments to the trust at some point.  We will probably see 30 - 40M drop in their liquidity by August .. so down to $50-60M.  Prior to bankruptcy they were at $240M. 

The USDOJ brings the people's elbow (The Rock reference) to the Roman Catholic Church Ad Hoc, Coalition and Pfau request for payment.  Easy read. Basically tells them they should pound sand.

I have a hard time seeing the judge disagree with the DOJ.  I expect a hard rebuke... Perhaps that is hope talking. 

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/95089527-7d85-4e92-b5ac-57f1c41f9158_10944.pdf

In Duluth.... Brrrrrrrrr

Great story!