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Posts posted by Eagle1993

  1. 10 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

    I am involved with the Cub Program so I am watching Webelos and Cub Resident Camp.  I am not sure how the various Summer Camps operate, but one slide from a meeting recently dealth with changes to the dining hall.  They are suggesting 6 people to a table instead of 10.  Its still a dining hall full of people and I don't see how's it going to be a good idea.  And, I am scheduled to be there the first week of June.

    Our camp is 100% patrol cooking, there is no dining hall.  Meals are cooked and eaten in Troop camp sites.  Our biggest building simply has a roof over a slab of concrete (no walls).  I agree early June in a building half filled seems risky.

    • Upvote 1

  2. 4 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

    I'm expecting camps to have delayed opening here- condensed from 6 weeks to 3 weeks.  My feeling is attendance will be sparse enough from parents being cautious that the camp will be able to handle the reduced volume for the 3 weeks.  so that would be the last two weeks of July and first week of August.  I have asked our SM to start talking to the PLC about planning a 4 day/3 night trip for mid-August, when things might be far more settled, as a potential trip in lieu of summer camp.  I think our parents will have more confidence in our small group getting together than trying to share with 200 other people outside our community.    

    We are having similar discussions.  Our plan A is stick with our June date … but I expect that will be cancelled.  Plan B is to go to same camp in mid/late July.  Plan C is different camp in mid/late July.  Plan D is our own Troop summer camp in late July or August (we have 2 crews headed to Philmont in August).  Plan F is an additional extended weekend in the Fall.  Plan G is a week in Florida during winter break.  Plan H is giving up until 2021 or later when a vaccine or good treatment becomes available.

    What gives me some confidence is that we have many scout parents who are doctors and nurses … all of them have shown support in us going to summer camp.  Now if our state numbers start looking like NYC I'm sure that could change.

    I have a bad feeling that this may be the last summer of many of these summer camps.  Between BSA bankruptcy, FOS failure, recession/depression, loss of summer camp income, falling rosters and failing units … I expect many camps will be sold after this summer.  I hope I'm wrong.

  3. On 4/19/2020 at 6:22 AM, scoutldr said:

    Our Governor (VA) has ordered a shutdown until June 10th.  They are still debating how to make up the lost school year...going to school all summer is on the table.  

    Our schools are shut down for the semester as well, but the DOE removed minimum hour requirements so most schools are ending on time using online learning.  Our school had talked about going until end of June, but several parents in our Troop (including me) will pull our kids from school to attend summer camps if they are open.  

  4. So far, not a single one of my kids camps have cancelled.  GSUSA, BSA, Zoo, various museums, college nor a local ecology center.   YMCA, JCC and other major overnight 3+ week camps are still going.  Without these camps, many parents will not be able to work or they resort to less than ideal solutions where older family members are watching kids.  I have seen countless examples of <15 year olds being watched by >70+ year olds … a very BAD combination which seems to be increasing daily.  Having these kids go between camps for the summer may be safer than having them be around high risk people as businesses reopen and parents go back to work.

    You need to balance perfection (100% of people locked away until a vaccine) with how people will really respond.  We are only 1 month in and lawsuits are starting in my state to undo the directives of the Governor and protests are mounting.  Many businesses have threatening to reopening in my area in defiance to the Governor and several sheriff departments have stated they will not enforce the lockdown.  I'm not a fan of this chaos, only pointing out there is backlash growing and to expect everyone to be locked down in July like they are today is completely unrealistic.

    BSA should follow CDC & state guidance.  CDC and the state should be looking at infection rates and balancing the risks.  I trust the CDC and state health departments will make better calls than 100s of individual camps.   At this point, I expect June camps will be (and should be) cancelled, but sometime in July may be ok … but that is a guess.  High Adventure will likely be cancelled for the season (too much potential to mix across country); however, BSA should be preparing as if they are "on" until CDC and state health departments respond. 

    The camp we go to is adding guidance and changes for COVID-19.  I think more is needed and will be provided.  As a Troop, we already started to discuss additional steps such as adults in the patrol kitchens to inspect KP, adults helping to enforce hand washing.  No personal KP (disposable only).  Daily temperature checks.  Etc. … I hate this as I generally think adults should be out of the patrol areas, but this year is different.  Nothing will be 100%, but to be fair, I think being outside in the sun and fresh air is much safer than any trip to my local grocery store.

    • Upvote 1

  5. CDC/FEMA documents leaked to Washington Post.  While the details are probably changing, the priority is interesting and not a surprise for the many families out there that have dual incomes.  Notice the term locally attended.... that could be a bad sign for HA bases.  Again, leaked document that could easily change, but you can see the CDC mindset.

    The first priority, according to the CDC response document, is to "reopen community settings where children are cared for, including K-12 schools, day cares, and locally attended summer camps, to allow the workforce to return to work. Other community settings will follow with careful monitoring for increased transmission that exceeds the public health and health care systems."


    • Upvote 2

  6. We have no plans to use these alt requirements.  The only real exception we plan to use is for 1 scout who is 17 and turns 18 in July.  His Eagle Scout project is definitely impacted by Covid-19 so we plan to work with him on an extension if he needs it.  Otherwise, we don't see any need to change requirement

    • Upvote 1

  7. 2 hours ago, yknot said:

    Eagle 1993, that's not what Dr. Fauci said. He said he is hopeful schools can reopen in the fall but I think was pretty clear that summer camps are in question and would depend on how things unfold.

    The Harvard article is 10 days old and is already out of date. Some kind of staged return to a new normal will need to take place, and yes that will likely result in some new exposures and deaths, but we have to have measures in place to keep that minimal. If you read the article carefully, and if you listen to Dr. Fauci, any kind of return is predicated on having a number of things in place that we do not currently have.


    Its early April.  I expect by end of May (7 weeks from now) we will have many of those things in place.  Perhaps not in all states, but enough that will allow many summer camps to run.  I could see those camps limit participants to only scouts from the state or within a limited range … but I would be surprised if 100% of camps are closed all summer.  I would also expect dates in July and August are more likely to operate than June.

    I actually believe high adventure is a bigger risk.  That brings in scouts throughout the country, including mixing scouts between high and low covid-19 areas.  That seems to be a much bigger risk than having scouts within a specific region go to summer camp.


  8. Actually, Harvard agrees with @qwazse.  Even Dr. Fauci talked about opening up summer camps yesterday (depending on the rate in May).

    Depending on seasonality, the models show that social distancing occurring between 25 percent and 75 percent of the time would both build immunity and keep the health care system from overloading. As time passes and more of the population gains immunity, they said, the restrictive episodes could be shorter, with longer intervals between them.



  9. I'll add one more comment.  Only 1 of our 50 scouts going to summer camp dropped out due to Covid-19 (the rest already paid).  So, parents & scouts are more than willing to go if it is open.  I think that could change if our area infection rate shoots up, but so far so good...


    I think its too early to know for sure.  Unless you are willing to do a 18 month to 2 year mandatory lock down of the entire country (until a vaccine is available), some activities will reopen with Covid-19 infections still out there.  I expect this may be a state by state call based upon density of the virus in their community. 

    What we need is sufficient testing to really determine the density of the infected in each community and then appropriate guidelines based upon that density.   It could definitely mean limiting camps to local scouts (with xx miles) to prevent spread between communities.  It could mean facemasks and end of some activities (big group fire ceremonies, dining halls and even water front).  We go to a patrol cooking camp and our troop has discussed use of biodegradable utensils (no personal KP),  additional monitoring/instructions of KP, additional monitoring/instructions for hand washing, face masks, etc.  

    The only real way out of this is a vaccine and there is no way the country will shut down fully until that is available (which in best case in large volumes would be 18 months to 2 years).  So, we will need to live with this and find ways to limit risk.  If summer camp is open, I'll be there with my Troop.  We will work to minimize risk.  If they close camp, I'm ok with that call. 

    I just hope they can ramp up testing further to see where this is really spreading and take appropriate action.  I tend to agree this summer may be too soon to have all of this in place … but one can hope.

  11. I doubt a nationwide shutdown will occur until September.  This will go to a state by state, city by city call.  Many countries, including China, are operating with the virus.  This is a pause while we catch up on testing to find out what areas are actually hit hard.  Areas not hit hard will release and monitor. If the testing shows cases rise above a certain level, they shut down again.   I would expect limits, but most scout camps are probably <1000 people, so hopefully they could go on.  Just a guess … probably more hope … of what will happen.  

    I do agree that many units will fold, especially those that were on the brink.  Perhaps there will be some sort of surge as well, especially if BSA can ramp up service aspects that could come out of this.

    • Like 1


    1 hour ago, Cburkhardt said:

    In this immediate moment I am going to suggest that it might be hazardous for the BSA to engage in almost any proactive messaging on YPT or the bankruptcy at this moment.  Anyone on this site could easily write the response that could come from an abused-claimant.  It could be: "the BSA does not get it" or "the BSA is insensitive with its statement" or worse.  These people need to be treated with kindness.  For now the best route might be to just quietly prepare our means by which we will try to give them some justice.   As for competitor organizations that are piling-on with their PR, this is part of the competitive market and they are taking advantage at this moment -- as they did when we repealed don't ask don't tell, formed all-girl Troops and our other recent progress.  My read is that Americans know this is obvious "kick them while they are down" behavior. 

    While I sometimes wish we would defend current practices more, I have to agree with @Cburkhardt.  Trying to fight the narrative now is like spitting into the wind.  We have to take our lumps.  I was surprised to have a couple parents come up and vigorously (in anger) defend the BSA.  I think BSA's response, "we believe you, we are upset about the sins of the past and we want you to come forward" works.  

    In the short term, we will be hit, but after bankruptcy, we can start anew and while holding true to the scout oath & law.

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  13. 7 hours ago, ParkMan said:

    Mega councils discourage volunteerism.  I've not been impressed with recent updates on council reorgs.  The stories we hear - defocusing on volunteerism and more focus on centralization.  Councils seem to focus on reacting to problems instead of proactively providing a vision for the future.  

    How does the Michigan Crossroads council work?  It looks like an interesting structure 1 mega council, smaller service centers & multiple districts per service center.  Does that result in a good balance between optimizing finances while still preventing the downsides of mega councils?  What is the role of the service center vs council?

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  14. 5 minutes ago, yknot said:

    My understanding is that Councils can sign on to be part of the National bankruptcy filing and thus obtain some degree of protection however then any unencumbered assets could be at risk. My understanding is that many did so. 


    This was mentioned in the article; however, that means Council assets (buildings, camps, investments) could be included.

    "Garabedian said individual councils could petition the bankruptcy judge to join BSA’s filing with a “channeling injunction” and their assets would be subject to being collateralized to pay into BSA’s victims’ compensation trust. "

    Note that courts have not been consistent on agreeing on which assets are unencumbered (just look at the Milwaukee Archdiocese cemetery fund case.

    My only point is that before we start suggesting mergers between councils, we need to get through bankruptcy (including councils).  Let this settle out and then reform councils with the remaining assets.

    • Upvote 2

  15. @HashTagScouts and @carebear3895 … I didn't even think of the increased nation fees on councils that will be coming, but you are right.  There was a lawyer asking how the BSA plans to pay their massive legal fees given the income was relatively low.

    But I was thinking the state lawsuits that will be placed.  This article below is simply one example.  Both National BSA & council were sued in state court.  National BSA was asked to be pulled from the lawsuit given the bankruptcy filing … but the lawsuit will continue against the council.  


    “Litigation will continue against the state councils in the (superior) courts,” Garabedian said. “Filing for bankruptcy stops civil litigation (against BSA), but it does not stop litigation against the (state) councils as separate corporations.


    With 1,000 to 5,000 plaintiffs, expect many state lawsuits … especially ones in states that have removed the statue of limitations … and many states are in the process of changing their laws.  See below for a good summary for a reddit poster:

    The reorganizaiton plan includes plans for "Local Council Trust Contributions" and "Chartered Organization Trust Contributions" (Exhibits H and I). 


    Page 4

    Sometimes predators used the BSA organization to gain access to children, and volunteers or employees of the BSA or Local Councils did not effectively act on allegations and transgressions as the BSA would have wanted them to and as the organization’s policies mandate today.

    Page 6

    The strategic options that the BSA explored throughout 2019 included efforts to reach a settlement with a substantial number of abuse victims that could be implemented through a prearranged chapter 11 proceeding. Those efforts involved several meetings with attorneys representing many abuse victims, including a two-day mediation in early November 2019. The mediation was attended by a prepetition future claims representative and some of the BSA’s insurers. Unfortunately, the mediation was unsuccessful. It became apparent that attorneys for abuse victims believed that certain Local Councils with significant abuse liabilities have significant assets that could be used to compensate victims. Further, it became clear that attorneys for abuse victims would only accept information about the nature and extent of the BSA’s available assets if provided through a court-supervised process. Accordingly, the BSA recognized in late 2019 that there were no meaningful prospects for a prearranged global resolution.

    Some local councils will be turning over financial data as part of the bankruptcy. See page 7

    This data room includes, among other things, balance sheets and asset-level information for the BSA and numerous Local Councils, including details regarding donor restrictions on such assets, as well as information on the BSA’s liabilities.



    Look at the Illinois example .. lets say there are two councils (A and B).  A has 20M of assets, B has 5M. Lets say B has 10 victims and A has 0.  Why would A merge with B until B declares bankruptcy to clear out any possible judgements that would have  hit the AB council after merger?


    • Upvote 3

  16. I think the question is … will it be better to see each Council go bankrupt as they are structured now, or wait for them to merge, sell of property and go bankrupt?

    Illinois is a perfect example.    Nearly every day, when listening to Chicago radio, I hear ads to file lawsuits given Illinois change to the statue of limitations they passed in 2019.  They specifically mention scouts, hospitals, schools, etc.  If the northern councils in Illinois are strong financially, they will be a target.  So, will it be better for these 3 to merge, combine all the lawsuits against them, and go bankrupt together?  Or, perhaps 1 or 2 could survive without bankruptcy.  Not sure, but that should be the only driving force behind mergers at this time. 

    Most settlements I have seen with the Catholic church show payouts averaging $1M per victim.  BSA is estimating 1,000 to 5,000 victims, so $1B to $5B in a settlement.  $1B means loss of all high adventure camps and national cash.  $5B probably means all council camps are lost as well.  Councils, just like National, needs to be focused on navigating bankruptcy.  

    The lawyers suing the BSA want to liquidate everything.  National, councils, units, charter orgs … everything.  Churches are hard to sell ... but camp property is fairly easy, so I don't expect them to rest until they have their pound(s) of flesh.  I really believe the next 3-4 years (I expect it will take that long), national, councils and charter orgs focus will be some sort of financial survival.  The day to day program survival (recruiting, events, etc.) will be up to districts (who have no assets) and units (who are probably too small to sue).  So, I think topics such as what units & districts should be doing during bankruptcy makes sense, but councils and National will be focused elsewhere.

    • Upvote 4

  17. Thanks for the feedback.  The scout will be visiting to check out our Troop.  I don't  plan to contact the other SM at this time; however, I may soon.  His feeder pack AOL den is also reaching out to possibly join our Troop.  Single scouts moving between Troops happens from time to time.  Entire dens, while that occurs, could flag that he needs to reach out and determine what the concern is.  For now, I'll let the single scout decision play out.

    • Upvote 1

  18. 4 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:


    That's insane - The Summit high adventure facility is in a separate legal entity, Arrow WV.  BSA has a note receivable due from Arrow.  The note due from Summit is $345M.  Did I mention that's insane?  The folks responsible (Professional BSA / Volunteers / Board Members / etc) they should be in court for being insane.

    No way on God's Green Earth that patch of WV is worth anywhere near that amount of money.  So Bankruptcy is what happens when you throw all your money down a rathole

    Here is Arrow WV, INCs latest 990.


    They are claiming it is worth $385M (after depreciation).

  19. 59 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

    Mitchell Garabedian ,a Boston lawyer who has gained international recognition for representing more than 1,000 victims of the Catholic Church clergy sexual abuse,  (you may recall his name from the movie Spotlight) said the question now is whether local councils should be held responsible. Churches that may sponsor troops where victims were abused may also be held liable. He said they are a link in the chain of sexual abuse that happened over the course of decades. He said some may want to join the bankruptcy for protection.

    “If local councils are separate corporations, which they usually are, they could say, ‘We want to be part of the bankruptcy protection, so we’re going to provide some assets,’ ” Garabedian said. “It’s called channeling injunctions. It happens in many other bankruptcies.”


    This is where the bankruptcy can get very large & complex.  I also think it could damage the whole idea of charter organizations.  When they start seeing various clubs, churches, etc. pulled into the bankruptcy, expect many COs to question keeping Troops & Packs.  BSA should be ready for another model, similar to GSUSA, where councils directly charter units. 

    I also think it is a bit early for nearly every council to essentially guarentee they are not going to be impacted by this lawsuit.  If a council has plaintiffs, is located in a state that has no limit on statue of limitations & has big resources ... they will be a target.  I understand why they are coming out strong on these statements, and support them, but they probably know there is signficant risk.

    The good news is that it seems like courts see Catholic Dioceses and Parishes as independent entities … making lawyers sue them individually and working on independent settlements.   It seems to be dragging them out, but it also seems to allow most services to go uninterrupted ... perhaps a bit of light for us.

    • Upvote 3

  20. 18 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

    Note due from Summit?  Is that indicating that Arrow WV basically borrowed money from BSA and that is "due" at some point as retired debt from operations and donations?

    Thus BSA is listing that "receivable" from Summit (Arrow WV) as the asset for the site?

    Correctamundo.  Do you think we can get out of this whole thing by transferring that "receivable" to the victim's fund? Good luck collecting on that.

    I also noted that they specifically noted that they did not include Oil & Gas Royalties or the Artwork - Original Rockwell paintings on their asset list.  I wonder why they could do that.

  21. 1 minute ago, tnmule20 said:

    Then it looks like National is factoring in Council properties as total assets. 

    They are not, New York State council assets alone are over $100M https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2020/02/18/boy-scouts-bsa-chapter-11-bankruptcy-sexual-abuse-cases/1301187001/


    National Assets:  

    High Adventure Bases (including loan due from Summit) = $408M

    Cash (some restricted) = $186M

    General Investments & Order of Arrow = $200M

    Texas Building & National Supply = $7M

    Furniture & Equipment = $30M

    Receivables = $23.6M

    Pledge Receiveables = $66M

    Inventory = $68M (that is a lot of Scout shirts)

    Prepaid Charges = $22M

    Other Assets = $14M

    Interfund Receiv = -$10M

    = $1.014B of assets … out of the above, what can they use for the victim's fund? What is the size of the victim's fund?  $408M of HA bases is going to be the juicy target.



  22. 21 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

     I wonder if the judge can apply executive compensation caps? 

    From what I have seen, executive compensation actually increases during bankruptcies.  The reasoning is that to keep top talent during bankruptcy, you have to over pay.

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