Eagle1993

1 minute ago, Mrjeff said:

I wish someone could direct me towards the first nation citizens who dislike what the OA is doing, because EVERY FIRST NATION MEMBER that I have actually spoken are very supportive

Just 1 example here:

Boy Scout OA Dance Teams - PowWows.com Forums - Native American Culture

Just one of many negative quotes from various forum members from tribes about order of the arrow...

Quote

"i wont make light of the fact that i absolutely HATE order of the arrow and fantasize about smashing thier little heads in with a baseball bat""

Then there are articles about BSA and NA:

Boy Scouts ‘have been one of the worst culprits’ of cultural appropriation - ICT News

Order of the Arrow is a ‘secret’ scout society ‘in the spirit of the Lenni Lenape’ - a Lenape leader disagrees - ICT News

Personally, I think we make a mistake when we generalize or even reference "Indian" culture.  There isn't an "Indian culture" in the USA.  There are tribal cultures.  If a specific tribe is working with a lodge, I'm not sure why anyone from the outside would have an issue.  I know there are several lodges that have good relationships with tribes.  I hope that can continue.

That said, to think no one from the NA community has a problem with this is completely wrong.  

However, BSA & National OA can make whatever decisions they think is best.

12 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Congress makes the laws, but anyone can violate those laws.  Employers, individuals, or governing bodies can all violate the civil liberties of another.  And can be held accountable. 

BSA v Dale .... BSA has the 1st amendment right to revoke membership of someone who is gay.  I am 100% certain they have the 1st amendment right to revoke membership of someone who violates their policy on usage of regalia.  BSA has the power to set the policy for their organization (with some limits on protected classes in some cases).  If they decide that usage of regalia in the OA would violate their principles, they could kick them out.  

Good timing ... we actually have some movement.  Looks like 2/9 & 2/10 there will be appeals hearings.  

Quote

ORAL ORDER: Argument on the Bankruptcy Appeal is now set for 2/9/2023, and 2/10/2023 in Courtroom 6A. The 8 issues on appeal outlined in the letter filed at D.I. 115 will be heard as follows: Issue 1 will be heard at 9:30 AM on 2/9/2023; Issue 2 and 4 will be heard on 2/9/2023, at 2:00 PM; Issue 3 will be heard on 2/10/2023, at 9:00 AM; and Issues 5 through 8 will be heard on 2/10/2023, at 2:00 PM. Ordered by Judge Richard G. Andrews on 1/10/2023. (nms) (Entered: 01/10/2023)

When I took over for my pack several years ago it had a negative balance.  I had to loan the pack $1500 to pay for room reservations, etc. that were due before we were able to collect annual dues and complete the popcorn fundraiser.  Running negative or close to negative is a bad situation.

I fully agree, stick to the budget.  Cash flow per year should be 0 (assuming you depreciate your equipment to ensure that can be maintained).  

$35 per scout seems a bit high and a nice to have.  We purchased a real arrow for each scout and wrote their name & date on the arrow (someone with good hand writing).  The cost was on the order of $3-5 each and the kids loved them.   

My Troops interest in the OA is now gone. After seeing two camps sold a few years ago and various council mergers, OA service was limited to one of the two remaining camps and meetings were a 1.5 hour round trip commute.  Now we have sold the camp the OA spent the most time on.  I see no remaining interest in the OA from my scouts.  

I think there are ways to save it (change OA to districts, perhaps align to closer to venturing (with service/leadership)).  There are options.  If it remains unchanged I expect it will be a footnote in my council.

19 hours ago, qwazse said:

@PACAN, I can think of three striking disincentives for GS/USA to reshape its program into anything like BSA’s:

1. It is quite clear that by-and-large parents are still preferring to send their daughters to GS/USA over BSA4G. (Some prefer to do both.),
2. Girls in both organizations love both, and
3. in spite of attracting a small number of girls, BSA has not gained membership.

 

100% agree ... GSUSA has 1.7M youth ... far more than BSA (who as everyone knows allows girls in).  While in my area, GSUSA is still going strong, girl troops and girls in packs are languishing.  I see perhaps 1 girl patrol at Klondike and other camporees and a few girls there and there mixed in with boy patrols.  Many girl troops in my area are struggling to hit the minimum 4 girls to register.  I talked with a leader of a council next to mine ... same situation.

While it is great to see a few good examples of girls doing well in scouting, it does not appear to be widespread.  I would love to see numbers across the USA, but that is hard to find (they were highlighting those early after adoption, but no longer).   

Where GSUSA struggles is post 5th grade (my daughter's Troop of 25 girls will not exist in 6th grade).  I wonder if BSA could have partnered with GSUSA for a program for older girls.  Now that will never happen. So, I still see the vast majority of girls enter into GSUSA (vs Cub Scouts) and then have little post 5th grade.  I think BSA has a chance if they could organize and recruit those girls into Troops ... but that is not happening (at least systemically).

On 12/21/2022 at 5:37 PM, Cburkhardt said:

 

Any Other Thoughts on the Roll-Out? 

It failed.  BSA declined to barely 1M youth served after admitting girls in 2019 (when they were over 2M).  Outside small pockets of success, there was no mass groundswell of families or girls joining BSA.   It caused dissention in the ranks just before we needed everyone all in as we entered bankruptcy.  

All in all, 4 years in and if I had to give a grade, it would be an F. 

Now, can BSA recover? Perhaps.  Just not with the current national leadership.

1 hour ago, Navybone said:

Thanks for sharing this info.  Very interesting approach to citizenship.  You say it is mandatory to complete this award to process in UK Scouts?

This is required to earn their top award (Chief Scout's Gold Award)

The merit badge program for Eagle is not designed well.  I think it does little to keep youth in scouting, is redundant, boring and not aligned with the "outing" in scouting.  It is what it is.  National doesn't seem to care.  So, either scouts slog through it or Eagle factories pump out the clinics for youth who want to add Eagle Scout to their resume.  

I've heard more positive feedback about Society than other Citizenships.  However, given the group setting and Troop size, we have only had one chance to earn it... So it could catch a lot of youth by surprise if they procrastinate.

8 minutes ago, qwazse said:

if it really mattered to the bulk of citizens, councils would not be inept. If parents thought really needed the program, they would give a care.

I think this is true for the whole of scouting.  The lack of girl troops in scouting is because, for the most part, the bulk of citizens don't care.  Same reason why scouting is falling for boys ... because the bulk of citizens don't care about scouting. 

In 1960, 20% of boys were in scouts.  Just talking about boys, if the same ratio existed today, we would have 6 million scouts.  Since we offer services to girls as well, we should have close to 12 million scouts.  We are under 1 million scouts across boys & girls.  I think BSA can help change this, but National Leadership is mute.

BSA has a lot of choices to make.  One is going to have to be if they tell girls they have no option after 5th grade while the boys they had been working with move on to Troops.  I'm seeing this frequently as many girl only troops struggle to maintain 5 scouts in my area.  (Boy Troops are also falling/dropping).

If BSA does not want to give that message, then they could allow coed Troops.  No need for additional overhead to create single gender girl troops.   I would expect more Troops would be available for girls.

If BSA does not like those two choices, the only other option is to stop admitting girls into Cub Scouts if there is not a path for them in Scouts BSA.  Perhaps that is decided at District Level.  This is a bit of chicken/egg situation as previously mentioned, but Boy Scouts of America started at the Troop level.  I would argue Troops/Boy Scouts/Scouts BSA has the biggest impact on youth, is the most unique offering BSA offers and has the most important impact on the country at large.  If you cannot first setup Girl Troops in your district, then you shouldn't start allowing girls in Cub Scouts.

None of this helps the question at hand.  You have 2 options.  Lone scout OR creating a girls only Troop by recruiting more girls.  Perhaps an existing boy troop will help be a linked unit.

From what I can tell, the case is going to District Court for appeal.  District court accepted the case and layed out various ground rules.  I could not find any dates or schedules yet. 

Boring meetings:  What do they want to do?   Maybe focus the meetings on what fun activities you can do on your monthly weekend.     

This one has been mentioned by multiple scouts in many Troops.  You are definitely not alone here.  My son's best friend, who dropped out of scouts (from another Troop) said Boy Scouts is 10 hours of boring meetings for every weekend of camping.  His thought ... just skip the meetings and go camping.  His Troop had gone from ~60 scouts to 9 in the last 4 years and are on the verge of collapse.

I've talked with several parents in our Troop who were scouts 20-30-40 years ago.  When we met back then, we planned various outings during our meetings (in addition to scout skills).  However, kids today do not typically meet in person to plan activities.  They do it over Discord or other online communication tools.  One thought we had was to simply allow scouts to meet over discord to do planning activities (if they prefer that method).  Then, keep meetings to games/scout skills/advancement.  We would perhaps eliminate a meeting or two a month.  (Personally, I prefer the in-person meetings.  In addition, the PLC says they like meeting in person; however, I'm not sure if that is because they think that is what the adults want to hear. We haven't changed yet, but it is on the table).  

You have some tough choices.  I wouldn't blame you if adults step in a while to save the Troop.  However, it shouldn't be the permanent solution.  Perhaps adults plan a fun/engaging meeting and then meets with the PLC to show options on meetings and what can be done to make it fun.  I know we have had to do that time to time when our PLC isn't really stepping up well.  We debated do we allow several bad meetings to occur or step in.  We have done both and have seen allowing repeated bad meetings (to help the PLC learn) has caused more long-term damage to the Troop than stepping in and then working to teach/coach the PLC/SPL.  Either way, it's a tough call.

32 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

The type of firearm is irrelevant.  And the mention of it, I equate to fearmongering.  This death could have occurred with a .22 single shot rifle, or even a pellet gun (.177)

 

So could tripping down a few stairs. However,  AK47 propel a larger mass at a higher velocity resulting in far more energy.  .22 is around 250 joules ... AK47 are closer to 2000 joules.  There has been studies that show ... larger caliber weapons increase likelihood of death.  In Boston, if individuals were shot with only smaller caliber bullets, their gun homicide rate would have dropped nearly 40%.  Simply put, higher caliber is more deadly.

Quote

A logit analysis of the likelihood of death found that compared with small-caliber cases, medium caliber had an odds ratio of 2.25 (95% CI, 1.37-3.70; P = .001) and large caliber had an odds ratio of 4.54 (95% CI, 2.37-8.70; P < .001). Based on a simulation using the logit equation, replacing the medium- and large-caliber guns with small-caliber guns would have reduced gun homicides by 39.5%.

The Association of Firearm Caliber With Likelihood of Death From Gunshot Injury in Criminal Assaults | Emergency Medicine | JAMA Network Open | JAMA Network

I have allowed my son to shoot a variety of guns, including some larger caliber long rifles.  There is a BIG difference between controlling a .22 and larger caliber or higher velocity gun/ammo.  You can teach everything scouting should teach with a .22  ... if you want more, then expand your experience outside scouting.  I wouldn't argue against maintaining separate options for older scouts ... but it seems like most camps I go to struggle to have an RSO/instructor available to manage a .22 and shotgun range.

16 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2022/08/child-killed-in-shooting-accident-at-hawaii-boy-scout-camp/

No surprise here ...  I fully disagree with the opinion piece and believe the BSA shooting sports are a great program that should continue.  However, insurance companies and some anti gun parents will use cases like this to push BSA to end the program.  (Shooting sports is already in trouble in many areas due to lack of trained volunteers).  Hopefully BSA pushes back, but all volunteers need to ensure they follow the BSA/NRA rules or there is no doubt the program will end.

1 hour ago, Navybone said:

I disagree - if we accept that the RSO cannot provide for range safety and range management, then Boy Scouts has no business running a shooting range.

Obviously we do not have all the answer, but the idea or concept that running a safe range is hard and good enough is fine (my summary of your comments) is flat our wrong.  If the range cannot be run safely, it should be run.  Full stop.

An RSO AND an instructor is required for every 8 scouts.  I struggle to see how this could happen with this ratio in place.  It sounds like there was lack of oversight of the range; however, it could happen if a scout purposely ignored orders ... so we need to know a bit more before casting final judgement.  

If the adults broke BSA rules, they should be held civilly liable and pay.  They should also be removed from BSA.  If the adults broke the law, they should be held criminally liable. 

If we want shooting sports to remain in BSA, we need the leaders to follow the rules.  The fastest way to end shooting sports is to have adults break the rules.  

Terrible what happened to these scouts.

2 hours ago, yknot said:

If the 4% holds in January and then March depending what happens with the paused UMC recharters, I would say any positive growth is good. What I'm more concerned about, though, is that the 33,000 includes a lot of dead or soon to be dead registrations from the prior cycle. That's always been the problem with membership numbers released between now and Dec. 31 and really until March of the coming year.  Some councils might be tidier than others though. I have no idea what Circle 10's history of accuracy is. In my home councils, it's pretty much fiction until March. 

What I find interesting, is that Circle 10 signed off on their targets in October of 2020, and at that time, predicted they would have 44,000 scouts by the end of 2020.  Now, nearing the end of 2022, they see 33,000 as growth.  I can't imagine that is a good sign (they were targeting 46,000 scouts for end of 2022 only 2 years ago).  

3 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Circle 10 at the end of Sept.  33,000 registered.

I found a strategic plan online from a Circle 10 discussion in late 2020.  Their goals then:

2020 - 44,000

2021 - 44,700

2022 - 46,000

2023 - 48,000

33,000 is concerning, at least vs the plan

8146795-StrategicPlan-2021-2023-1647373160710.pdf

My district is short it's goal by about 50% or just over 160 Cub Scouts.  That is as of October.  They will probably close the gap a bit, but will end short of plan.

I am concerned about Troops. Several are down to 1 patrol in my area.  One Troop in my town who always had 50-60 scouts even as of 2018/2019 are down to 9.  I talked to that Scoutmaster who said a former SM took over who was really strict and a rules guy to the point most of the scouts just quit.

My pack recruited well and our Troop is fairly healthy.  However, I am seeing some dark clouds on the horizon.  BSA will need major changes to survive.

A bunch of filings hit over the last few days.

BSA financial update ... unrestricted liquidity now at $73M (as of end of August).  Down $11M from July and down $161M since start of bankruptcy.

Notice of Appeal to District Court filed 9/22 & 9/23

5afa7f6b-ff0b-4f3b-be07-7ddd14903ae9_10466.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)

c2df4ef0-e46e-4f47-9fde-73c0837abd91_10472.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)

Then several detailed filings of those appealing the order...

So far, I don't see the DOJ; however, I'm not sure if they would send anything or just argue in court.  In general, it looks like the non-settling insurers are going after this case individually (I see 15 different insurance companies) along with a couple of groups of claimants.  

• Arch Insurance Company - 52790349-974a-4ece-95e7-6dc5b77eb59d_10507.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• National Union Fire Insurance - b92529d9-9786-44d3-b7b1-625a67a1726c_10508.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• Travelers Casualty and Surety Company - 9298c20f-f03b-4f0a-afff-f620d04e4c32_10509.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• Indian Harbor Insurance Company - aa9ba6a0-d4e5-41c9-99fc-646c3b30469b_10510.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• Munich Reinsurance America - aa9ba6a0-d4e5-41c9-99fc-646c3b30469b_10510.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• Arrowood Indemnity Company - aa9ba6a0-d4e5-41c9-99fc-646c3b30469b_10510.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• General Star Indemnity Company - 1aefc7ec-86d1-4666-b296-37c13cbf4664_10513.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• Continental Insurance & Columbia Casualty - 2a28ea5e-3cdb-413b-808d-b2b8f978c40a_10514.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• Argonaut Insurance Company& Colony Insurance - e26ef6b9-ba5e-40ac-965d-82b6946d923d_10515.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• Allianz Global Risks - 5629d276-6abe-4a66-9559-1bd7f81f1513_10516.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• Traders and Pacific Insurance - 8e25629a-a98e-4d46-84d1-2525253646c8_10517.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• Liberty Liberty Liberty - https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/6b294191-1490-4029-9ebc-fcd714777bc0_10518.pdf
• Old Republic Insurance - 6cb0fa22-8ad6-45f3-8cf2-ddb13e0ca2ae_10519.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• Gemini Insurance - b3c41443-693a-486f-a5e7-e1bb0ab01e1a_10520.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• D&V Claimants - 12bee4e1-f6e3-45ca-ae69-fc1a67f0019d_10521.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• Great American Assurance Company - 48bfe057-add5-482f-82db-21b0f56319f4_10523.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
• Lujan & Wolff - 63f20f61-5d67-4cbe-8bde-7288d615dd5a_10526.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)  & b3990d44-3023-41e1-bdfd-ad932e0a7cdf_10527.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)
•  

Don't forget the scouts who do not renew membership fall off the books after recharter (early 2023).  The number I am interested in will be posted in February.  I have seen a big uptick in scouts dropping during recharter. I think in the past, parents would see $25 and figure they would renew even if they don't participate much. Now scouts who rarely participate drop off.  

We need to continue to see growth feb to feb every year or BSA is in trouble.  

5 hours ago, BAJ said:

I hope that BSA is at least making some substantial money from the gaming companies for promoting their products.  If this event came with a substantial “contribution” that can help address some of the post-bankruptcy financial concerns…. Then….. well….. maybe.

These companies do not need the BSA.  Why would they pay the BSA?  Rocket League has, on average, 90 million users every 30 days.  Madden sells about 150 million copies and has even more users.  

I don't understand how an E Sports tournament ties into the BSA, but if setting up an E Sports tournament allows BSA to advertise their offerings and helps recruiting I'm all for it.  

Now, if there was patrol based e sports game that would be a much better path.  

I'm curious is they expected us to be closer to the goal by now. 

16 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

18 firearms and various ammunition was recovered.

I'm curious if these were 22s and a variety of shotguns or something beyond what is approved by Scouts BSA.

17 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

The investigation concluded that an unsupervised male minor picked up a loaded firearm and as he placed it back down

It sounds like the guns were not stored properly. There should be no chance a unsupervised scout should have access to firearms at camp.  

Hopefully a warning to anyone who doesn't take the shooting sports rules seriously.  I've never seen anything close to this at any camp I attended.  Firearms are always secured when the range is closed. 

Sad story, hopefully never repeated. 

@ajherkert Welcome to Scouter.com.

Sounds like you have a lot of great experience.  I'm sure others will provide guidance as well.  

As a former leader of a pack, the best way to help a pack is to be a great den leader.  Personally, I think having great energetic den leaders is the most important aspect of a healthy pack.

Perhaps watch how den meetings are run and get a sense of the pack culture.  Find some areas where you may be able and provide some suggestions. If you see a need for major changes, that is a whole different topic. 

In terms council, attend the district meetings.  That lets you meet fellow scouters and allows better local discussions about scouting topics. 

One caution is to be careful of burn out.  Being a scouter is a marathon not a sprint.  I ramped up quickly, den leader, Committee Chair, Scoutmaster and district committee... It was too much and now I backed down to solely Scoutmaster.   Looking back, it is better to do one job great than a bunch of jobs half assed.  it sounds like you can bring a lot to scouting, I would just hate to see you burn out early.

Hope this helps & good luck!  It is a blast to see the kids mature through the years in scouting. 

15 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Will not see the first Lions become Scouts until next year. Lions started in 2018.

We had Lions in 2016.  They started a pilot program for Packs that were willing to jump through some hoops.