Eagle1993

The TCC was clear that they did not approve of the 72 hour rule.  BSA was never going to exit bankruptcy without this change.  It was one of the changes that switched TCC from rejecting to supporting the bankruptcy plan. 

It was an odd rule.  I'm not able to do nearly anything with the GSUSA without registering.  I think BSA avoided it, like they avoided the YPT training checks for years, to avoid the complaints and moaning from scouters.  

As far as MBCs, they shouldn't be hanging out overnight with the Troop.  ASMs and SMs ... Sure.  I struggle to see why a MBC in that capacity should be sleeping in a tent with a Troop. 

I'm fine with the policy change and expect it will have minimal impact to my Troop.  i wouldn't want a parent or leader near my kids who would object to the background check or registration. e

One of the major complaints I have seen is impact to family camping.... Great!  I've seen too many parents looking to just hang out with the Troop overnight.  If this puts a barrier up so scouting can return to only necessary leaders and scouts I see this as a win.  Having 7 parents and 12 scouts at camporees is just not what scouting is about.

2 hours ago, RichardB said:

Does anyone have any comments about this councils efforts to prevent injury and illness via SAFE Checklist use?     

I think it helps.  However, there is a huge variety in experience and culture between units.  There are units that are more engaged in training, rules, regulations, etc.  Many other units are either unaware (due to so many different sources of data) or just ignore the rules.

I think the only fix is for councils to be more aware of unit leaders and unit culture/behavior.  Relying on COs will not work.  So ... this video will be helpful for the units who follow rules and pay attention.  However, I question if that is the biggest safety issue BSA faces.  I wonder if the bigger issue is that there are too many poorly led units that violate rules.  I'm curious what injury investigations show.  Was the injury a result of the inherent risk of an activity, lack of a rule or was it due to violating rules?  If it was due to violating rules, was it due to lack of understanding the rules, lack of awareness of the rules or ignoring them?  This video helps with one aspect, but may not be the total answer or addressing the biggest cause.

This one snuck in when the other change was announced (about adults staying overnight).

A registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over must be present for any activity involving female youth or female adult program participants.  

So, what is the change?  In the past, "female adult program participants" wasn't listed.  So, my understanding, is if you have a female 18-20 attending an event, you need a registered female adult leader 21 years or older.  

Deleted my thread. 😄

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Agreed, but not all state laws are the same and not every LC had the same number of incidents.  A good number of LCs could survive and/or go thru chapter 11 also.  ... and then chapter 7 if needed.

200 BSA councils going through bankruptcy over a 10 year period while National BSA goes Ch 7 is not going to lead to success.  

23 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Don't be that sure that chapter 7 would kill BSA. 

LCs could form an alliance to purchase the BSA national trademarks, property, etc and re-open BSA.  LC's have a business relationship with BSA national; not a suicide pact.  Very similar to a franchise.  If the franchise corporation bankrupts, that does not automatically doom the franchise members or transfer franchise corporation debts to the individual franchise members.  

The one thing Chapter 7 guarantees is re-starting the abuse lawsuits; new massive legal costs; and, years and years to resolve NEW legal questions.   We could be looking at a decade of new legal issues with chapter 7.

1) The franchise agreement isn't clear. Some have argued that the BSA trustee could pull all LC charters.  If that charter is pulled, the agreement states National owns the remaining assets.  LCs could fight that but that would be a court fight.  In the meantime, they couldn't use the trademarks or program material.  Why did BSA include a full national (including LC) liquidation in their analysis... Because of this theory.

2) How much would they pay for the trademarks and program material?  $100M?  $400M?  The trustee would drive that price up as high as possible.  

3) It is estimated that 1/3 of councils would immediately face bankruptcy due to lawsuits. COs would also be directly hit and many more would flee.

4) Remaining LCs would face decades of future lawsuits.

5) Insurance companies would avoid BSA or jack up rates until the situation is resolved.

6)Donations would dry up as no one would want their money going to bankruptcy payments. National already sees this... Once their protection is gone, FOS would be hit.

BSA knows it is a disaster which is why they never even seriously considered the mini Ch7 offered by TCC (national only bankruptcy+ buyout by council).  A full CH 7 could be the end. 

BSA will not go Ch 7.  Based on their most recent cash burn they can last over a year without looking at Ch7.  Even after that year they could get more money from councils, etc.  Ch 7 is utter disaster.  BSA trademarks and program materials would be sold.  All properties sold. There are legal arguments that would be pursued to pull in all council assets.  Then CO and LCs would be sued.  BSA would likely not survive.  Ch 7 was a threat to get approval of a plan. 

If it does happen, who knows the outcome for claimants financially.  I think it would be bad for everyone excluding those who simply want BSA to die as they would likely get their wish. 

I see a few milestones to watch for ..

1. Purdue Pharma appeals outcome.  I believe the district court ruling in Purdue Pharma did cause a bit of a quake through the bankruptcy courts.  An appeals ruling against the plan could perhaps be used to either reject BSA's plan or justification for a stay if the BSA district court approves the plan.  Prof Jacoby has mentioned this in the past.
2. BSA District Court ruling ... per Prof Jacoby, now it is more and more likely we will see Purdue appeals ruling first as we wait while for the District Court ruling.  One good thing ... the BSA District Court judge has already told Biden he is retiring this year, so it likely won't take all year. 
3. Appeals of District Court ruling ... from various articles and messages here, it seems clear that either side will appeal the District Court ruling, regardless of outcome.
4. Appeals court stay ... will the appeals court in BSA stay the effective date of the plan?  
5. BSA's actions ... what will BSA do?  As mentioned, if there is a stay, we could be looking at 1 year more of limbo.  Will BSA continue to limp until mid 2024?
6. Will any insurance company settle and drop appeals?  
7. Will the judge allow payment of the fees from the Coalition & other law firms?

Time will tell...

44 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

This is what we received from NCAC:

Quote

One of my fears is that CAC's $20/month fee was the foot in the door.  Many people who are younger seem to gravitate to the subscription model.  This car will only cost you $400/month.  This home will only cost you $2500/month.  If you don't look at the total cost of something, the monthly fees don't seem that bad (until you add them all up).

BSA only costs $20/month in CAC ...   $20/month sounds perfectly reasonable until you multiple that by 12 and realize a few years ago the equivalent was only $30/year.  

Once you establish $20/month then a change to $22/month much easier than trying to make a $24/year annual increase.    Perhaps this is where we are headed ... if we are, I'll probably not be around for the ride.  

43 minutes ago, Delphinus said:

I wonder how much the Tidewater Council executives get paid? I don't know if they're full-time equivalent employees , but it certainly gives incentives for them to show up to the pack Blue & Gold events every year, highjack the meetings for 40 minutes, and high-pressure the parents to donate money and achieve donation goals. 

Only name I see on the 2020 990 form is JAMES PARNELL who was paid $104K.   Honestly not too bad compared to most councils I have seen.

Welp .... CAC has now paused the new fee schedule.  Based on feedback from parents & volunteers, Crossroads of America council has decided to pause the new fee structure.

My daughter's annual Girl Scout fee is $25.  As mentioned, 4H and other similar organizations have pretty low annual fees.  BSA thinking $300+ is reasonable is completely wrong.

Members within CAC are still upset.  The entire council volunteer corp & paid leadership approved the fee.  

Hopefully a warning to other councils think about a massive fee increase.

Thanks for the updates!

I do wonder what would happen if Purdue Pharma appeal kills the releases.  I know it is another circuit, but there is a ton of attention and change with respect to non debtor releases.  If an appeal court rejects them (Purdue had more support in terms of votes than BSA) then I wonder if either the District Court or 3rd Circuit appeals puts the breaks on the BSA plan.

I would expect plan supporters are probably hoping that either a ruling comes out backing Purdue Pharma OR the ruling is delayed until BSA has district approval and starts implementing their plan.

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

See page 22

https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/350867962_201912_990_2021021817717804.pdf

in 2019, CAC SE received $326K total compensation package.

Show that to the parents there, and see how they react to the fee increases.

LOL

Their top paid employees total comp:

SE = $326K

Deputy SE = $331K

Dir. Major Gifts = $191K

Dir. Field Ser = $182K

3 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If this chart shows what is coming next year. I fear my troop will die, as will most units in my area.  We are in an economically disadvantage area. Many families are  lower class. Over 1/2 my troop is on some type of assistance to remain registered, and the remaining family can barely afford Scouting as it is. Glad one will age out, and the other just earned Eagle, pending national approval. 

As for the $240 Adventure Fee, is that to pay for a monthly camp out at a council camp? WE can get it cheaper per person going to other, more adventurous places.

Even parents of upper class ... $340 a year is a lot when you add in the various other costs including summer camp, etc.  Asking for $50/year ... ok, they will sign up little Jimmy/Sally even if they are not super active.  $340 ... all you are left with are the scouts where scouting is their ONLY activity.  That will drop scouts to a small fraction of who is currently registered.

Petition · Prevent the Decimation of Membership of Local BSA unit in Crossroads of America · Change.org

Quote

 

Our local council, the Crossroads of America "CAC" is about to destroy scouting membership in central Indiana with the new "MODERNIZING FEE STRUCTURE FOR SCOUTING" for 2024 (See the attached image).

Total individual Scout Fee paid to the Council for Annual Recharter (Does not include unit fee) --176% Increase
2023 - $87
2024  - $240
Breakdown of Scout Fees
National -- 0% change (so far) (per member)
2023 -  $75
2024 - $75
Council Fee -- 1275% Increase (per member)
2023 -  $12
2024 - $165
New Registration Fee -- 300% Increase (per member)
2023 -  $25
2024 - $100
Unit Recharter Fee (ex. a unit of 20 memeber is $5 per member)
2023 -  $100
2024 - $0
In this uncertain economic environment, corporations are practicing degrees of fiscal responsibility to survive what could be an upcoming recession by reducing spending while keeping the most value to their customers in order to survive.  "CAC" however, has recently been on a hiring and spending spree.  This council has grown now to over 55 scout executives, expanding roles into multiple individuals, whereas other local businesses are combining roles and unfortunately reducing headcount.  The increase in hiring was even brought up as a positive aspect at our council's Governor's Luncheon last December, where businesses around Indiana are asked to attend to donate to the council's Friends of Scouting.  Many of those same businesses are laying off personnel.  

At this time, units from across our council are experiencing what many are facing nationwide; rising costs of supplies and lodging.  Many units are having to increase their unit dues or outing fees due to the rising costs of food, supplies, and fuel.  These cost increases are even coming from the BSA as you are well aware, for things like awards.  Of course, many units continue to fundraise outside of popcorn and Lord Baden Powell taught us, part of scouting is paying your own way.  However, fundraising should only be a small portion of the scouting experience.   Therefore, many units are cutting back on costs, not participating in all the activities they may have had in the past, to help ensure the greatest mass of scouts can have scouting experiences.  But not Crossroads of American councils, they are spending on major projects, moving forward with building projects, which will provide an improvement for scouts, but are being done at a time when construction costs are rising.  Lastly in that is the Air Show that our council is creating for 2023.  The airport stopped producing this air show in 2013 due to low profits and even losses.  While an awesome opportunity for scouts to attend, the selection of the last weekend in October and other factors have many of us concerned, especially with the associated cost of producing such an event. 

We have no doubt that the council will help those in the greatest need, those being the families on government assistance so they can afford at least part of scouting.  Our concern is not as much because of that fact.  We are concerned about the group of families that fall into the income bracket above government assistance, but where an additional $240-$340 a year per scout is out of the question.  A cost that is compounded if they have multiple youths in the BSA.  These are youth that we already see skipping outings or extracurricular events due to cost constraints.  Cub Scouts whose parents are already opting them out of summer camp due to costs.  This plan that is being implemented is pricing out a portion of the Middle Class.  

Combine these costs with an increase in summer camp fees that are far greater than any surrounding council, and many of the families we stated above will simply leave as their children will only feel left behind.

 

Look at this cost structure.  $340 per year in Crossroads of America.  Seems a bit steep..

I'm not sure how other Troops handle this but we make it clear that nothing is official until we hear from National.  We do not have anyone wear the patch until we have the kit from National.  

Now, in all my years, I haven't had a case where National rejected the Eagle app but it can happen.

4 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Yeah, I would have been happy to donate my time and talent to work at the jamboree.

Just not going to pay $1200 for the privilege. (Plus travel costs to and fro.)

https://jamboree.scouting.org/jamboree-service-team/

We had an ASM who volunteered for years.  He led one of the groups at Jambo and his out of pocket was over $5K per jambo.  That included air travel & hotels in Dallas to prepare.  At some point, they ask far too much from volunteers.

7 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Wow, are you sure that was their target?

15K seems really low.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2013/08/26/putting-jamboree-attendance-numbers-in-historical-perspective/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Scout_jamboree_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)

Reports from some on Facebook indicate they are almost at 14,500 and have set a limit of 15,000 scouts due to staffing limits.  

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

We have a lot of open spaces for jambo in our council.  Wonder why Scouts aren't going? (No, I'm not wondering, really...)

Rumor is National Jamboree almost hit their limit 15,000 scouts.  

1 hour ago, malraux said:

Out of question, do you know when these changes will get rolled out? I’ve got a day camp to plan out and I’d like it if I can be ready for whatever is coming. I suspect the plan is to have these changes for next program year but that’ll start with day camp. 

I was told after bankruptcy is closed out.  

I wouldn't worry about planning for these yet. I heard of these second hand and the final implementation may be different. That said, change is coming. Costs, tools, program, leadership, councils, COs, camps, etc. could all be impacted.  BSA, while having a decent recruiting year, considers themselves at war (per a slide displayed in bankruptcy).  The insurance company lawyer asked about the war reference and BSA rep didn't really answer.   I think BSA sees themselves at war with survival.  They will not survive if changes are not made.  Their debt burden and costs are simply too high.  Another slide alluded to an opinion that the changes can not be democratic.  So, councils will be forced to merge, programs will change. 

If I hear of rumors I'll post them here. Not to cause disruption but to get feedback from experienced scouters.  Perhaps some in National could see the comments as an early indication of acceptance or at least areas of concern.  

I'm not taking any action at my unit level other than preparing my Committee that we may need to be flexible over the next couple of years. Not much else to do until we hear details.

I would be careful with the topics of requirement 6.  In particular, I would avoid those discussions with other scouts present.  Some families may not want their dirty laundry shared with the Troop.

Quote

Some of the issues surrounding requirement 6 for the family meeting could be considered of a personal nature. Use discretion when reviewing this requirement with the Scout.

family_life.pdf (scouting.org)

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

If only all that money BSA poured into the cash sink that is Summit (north of $750 million) was available and had NOT been dumped by the truckload in West Virginia

After a few billion dollar mistakes it starts adding up to a lot of money.  

5 hours ago, Eagle1970 said:

In the case at hand, what is the probability of Chapter 7?

Low chance ... even after they burn through their own cash, National BSA can definitely pull money from councils.  Ch7 is a disaster. 

33 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

During bankruptcy, BSA was clear that Jamborees and HA bases are profitable.  Cash flow is typically positive early from what I see.  They take in high fees up front and expenses drain that down later. 

To be clear, they really need to be cash flow positive. Those are expensive facilities that require significant funds to maintain plus are under a mountain of debt.   If you take into account the full balance sheet including debt and depreciation I bet the outcome is closer to 0 to negative... but short term positive on the cash side.  This is just a guess.