Eagle94-A1

rue. I know I'm not going to get 100% of what I want for the troop, the Scouts left alone and in charge with real responsibilities and obligations and the adults sitting around drinking coffee and not doing a thing. One thing tI think I have over them is expereince. I've been dealing with Boy Scouts as a member, Scouter, and professional for 32 years now. I've been in 5 different council and involved with 5 different troops, six if you include one that I worked with indirectly as mentoring their SM. Plus I've had the opportunity to work with foreign Scouts, and see some differnt things from overseas that are good ideas. I not only have been to training, I've taught it. And just SM Specific and ITOLS, but also BA 22, JLTC and Retaining Older Scouts.. Most of these folks have no Boy Scout experience, and little to no Boy Scouter training. I am not asking that they automatically let me iresponsible for their kids. I know they need to develop trust. But I do wish they would listen to those of us with experience when they are causing problems. I am not the only one who has had these issues. While it may be important to them, it hasn't been shown except to interfere. While Webelos, they never camped with the troop despite at least 10 invitations over a 21 month period. The one time they did show up at a camp out, they ignored the directions they were give prior to the camp, ignored Scout in charge of working with them, didn't let the Scout do the work, and left that afternoon instead of camping. Only Webelos camping came from another pack, or from another den in their pack. And the one from another den was friends with one from another pack. His den was not interested at all in camping with the troop. Additionally some of the parents causing issues never attended either of the 2 meeting we had for them. Agree the Scouts are the ones who are in the middle and are being hurt as a result. Two issues with them coming to the meeting. First and foremost is that the SM scheduled this meeting when the Scouts are doing a tournament. Closest to a Scout I can get to attend is the 18 year old ASM. And I know his thoughts because I talked to him: "It's starting to seem like Cub Scouts." Second issue, and IMHO the more important one, is that there is a lack of trust and respect between some of the adults and the Scouts. I've talked to the Scouts about a lot of things over the years. They have had issues with all of the adults, myself included, with not allowing them to take charge. At least they know I listen to them, take them seriously, and advocate for them to the other adults. But it should be the SM defending them and advocating for them, and not an ASM. And adults keep haring on that the Scouts are not ready for the responsibility. My question is how can they ever be ready if they are never given the opportunity to take responsibility? Regarding PLC huddles, That is something I wish we were doing. As for the "Never thought it would work"comment, I heard that with this Troop after we initiated changes last year. Long story short, one Scouter very opposed to Scout-led told me "I hope they fail" so that the adults could take over again. Until this last batch of New Scouts and their parents showed up, he was amazed at how well things were going when we gave the Scouts responsibility. Sadly that advocate recently moved.

How to convince adults to stick with the Patrol Method. Specifically What are your arguments for patrol method? How would you go about convincing adults to let Scouts sign off on advancement? How would you go about convincing adults le tthe Scouts make their own decisions, and suffer the consequences? How do you convince adults that the Scouts really know who the best leaders are? How would you convince adults that having families camp with the troop is a bad idea? Anything else i'm missing.

With the exception of the olive green loops, and the entire remove green from the Boy Scout uniform insignia, but leave the red insignia for Webelos Cub Scouts and Cub Scout leaders who wear the tan uniform , I concur. There are a lot of different ways to say the same thing with the uniform. i'm even against the specialty loops for jamboree. that's why they got jambo insignia, belt buckles, etc for.

When I went through it, leaders DID NOT (emphasis) touch the Cubs except to pin the Bobcat badge on. Parents were the ones touching the Scouts and holding them. And this was something everyone knew about and was looking forward to. It was fun. In my years of seeing this done, approximately 15 years, NO ONE was upset by the practice. The Cubs were upset when the practice was cancelled. If I recall correctly, one family after the meeting did it in the parking lot with dad holding the Cub upside down, and older brother, either a Boy Scout or Webelos, doing the pinning. When several other families saw that, they got into it. Does anyone remember when the head Health and Safety guru stated that they were considering banning marshmallow toasting in Scouting because the H&S folks call if "campfire napalm" and a few kids have been burned by it. Only reason they didn't was because of the unanimous support for the practice. Sometimes I wonder if one person is against something, will the BSA ban it? One thing I noticed glancing over the discussion is that it appeared to be all new parents who were complaining. No one with a sense of tradition and understanding of why they were doing it was against it. As to "Physically manhandle a kid" I've seen some skits that have physical contact and 'manhadling" done at pack meetings. Heck, I had my Bears and seen Webelos doing some "manhandling" when teaching first aid skills at den meetings or day camp. One thing not required, but the Cubs had a blast doing it, was the stretcher carry. And not everything about today is good either. I lament the fact that Boy Scouts cannot do pioneering projects over 6 feet tall, use carts for service projects unless 14, have watergun fights in the middle of July at camp, etc.

When It was done to me, parents were part of it. My Mom and one of the other dads held me. There was no value, it was FUN ( EMPHASIS , ok shouting a little with joy at the memory. wish my sons could have done it). And I can second the kids were the most upset. I was doing ceremonies with the OA when the ban came about. Lots of Cubs were ticked off that they could not longer do it. Reading Mr. Ruth's letter, his explanation is as idiotic as the ban on Cub Scouts using carts on a service project ( but that can do pushmobiles) and the ban on waterguns.

Actually when BSA decided to remove the red loops, and replace them with a second shade of green loops, it did get confusing. It didn't help when distributors and council shops were giving out wrong information on loops, as well as other insignia that came out with the Centennial Uniform. And don't get me started with the wrong info I got from a NATIONAL SCOUT SHOP ( emphasis) I still see folks wearing the bright green Venturing loops instead of the dull green Boy Scout ones.

Yes, please stick to the topic. This topic is extremely important to me as I want my sons and their friends to have as good, if not better, Scouting experience than I had. My oldest picked the troop because he liked it. But I wanted him visit it after I found out the #1 choice for both of us went to Trails Life. The troop had some minor issues at the time, but it had so much potential. Things were going well until a new batch of Scouts/parents/Scouters came in and issues arose. Not only growing to fast to soon, but also different ideas on how the troop is suppose to be run. We eventually worked that out, but then this newest batch came in. Now it looks like it is starting all over again, except worse. At least some compromise was given to let the Scouts have some responsibility for teaching the new scouts, dealing with their own issues, etc. It now appears that the new parents,who are use to doing everything for their sons, are trying to take away all the work the Scouts have put in, and the current SM and potential new SM are all for it.

Houmas House Plantation in Darrow, LA ( between Baton Rouge and New Orleans) does tours. I do not know a lot about the current owners and how they do things, but the previous owners did their homework and the plantation was period appropriate except for one room. Instead of an entertainment room, it was a bedroom that a movie star used in a film. They left it that way.

Sad thing about Eagledad's comment about adults not understanding patrol method is he is right, despite the fact that the former SM is a WB trained Scouter, the current SM is an Eagle, and the potential new SM is an Eagle. You would think that folks with experience would know better. I do know that regarding Scouts signing off on advancement, the potential new SM Eagle had a bad experience and he is totally against it as a result. Apparently his older Scouts kept having him come back and demonstrate the skills before signing off. And that is one of the stated reasons why Scouts do not sign off on advancement with this troop. And as I mentioned in Helicopters thread, it appears that all S-T-2-1 skills instruction and camping will be done by/with adults. I also think part of the problem is everyone, adults and Scouts, are so use to the way things have been done, i.e. 2 PLCs a year, adults teaching, etc. I know I tried to get my SPL son to hold regular PLCs, but when he announced one and it kept getting pushed back by the SM or one ASM, he gave up trying. I know several older Scouts are basically marking time until they can earn eagle and get out. They are no longer having fun. Anyway, what are your arguments for patrol method? How would you go about convincing adults to let Scouts sign off on advancement? How would you go about convincing adults le tthe Scouts make their own decisions, and suffer the consequences? How do you convinvce adults that the Scouts really know who the best leaders are? How would you convince adults that having families camp with the troop is a bad idea? Anything else i'm missing. My objective for the meeting is to focus on patrol method and getting the adults out of the Scouts' hair. But I want to be prepared for anything else that may come up. Regarding the meeting, sadly the CC is only interested in BORs, and nothing else. Everything is on the SM and ASMs. As for the CO, new IH, new approach to Scouts. Old IH was heavily involved, especially since son was in the troop. New IH not only is not interesting in Scouting, he has turned down several requests by the pack and troop, but also does not view Scouting as an outreach ministry like the old IH. New IH has taken down information from the church's board about Scouts, and the monthly newsletter does not contain anything about Scouts anymore.

I'm going to quote the Second Doctor, aka "The Hobo," "HHHMMM, I see you changed things. I don't like it." The yellow and blue neckerchief with a wolf's head is the oldest of all Cub Scout neckers as it is the original one. I don't like breaking traditions. Bad enough they are the wrong size.

Sadly we have had Scouts point blank say "we got this" and were ignored. In one instance the Scouts left the adult to do their jobs. And in all honesty, I don't blame them We got a combination. Some do not know what they are doing, despite being 'trained" Some are too impatient, and jump in.And we got some that get frustrated and cannot back off. I admit there was one time That I got frustrated at the situation, that I jumped in when seeing the SPL get ticked off dealing with the situation. Thankfully when he calmed down, he got me to back off and took back over.

Only reason I know is that I was told by him to count the ballots. When i counted the ballots initially it was a tie, and I went to him for clarification. I am use to the SPL no longer being a patrol member, and thus not being able to vote for a PL. That's when he mentioned the absentee vote and gave it to me to count. Personally I wish the SPL would not have voted with the patrol, excuse was he is still a member until next week, and that the SPL, or outgoing PL, counted the votes. Agree completely. I know dad is pushing him to get Eagle, and I beleive he is really the one that wants son to be SPL or ASPL. My impression from working with him as a MBC is that he has fun with his buddies, but is only advancing to please dad. And the impression he is giving the Scouts is he doesn't want the POR. BUT back on topic, how can we get the adults to realize that the kids know who the better leaders will be and that they will vote accordingly? Piggy backing on David CO's comment, how can we get adults to realize that there is nothing wrong with a Scout not holding XYZ position?

I agree. Especially on that last sentence. Unfortunately the troop is very adult led. I got a compromise of sorts last year, and with the Scouts having more responsibility it was working. Regarding earning respect, THAT IS KEY! We have one Scout who is also complaining about not getting elected. But he has not earned the respect. In the past he has complained about duties and work. And the Scouts remember that stuff. They want someone they can depend upon. That's part of the problem. IMHO they are not being cultivated. We do not have regular PLCs, meetings before and/or after meetings, etc. Adults tend to jump in and take over instead of mentoring and having the Scouts learn from their mistakes. I've tried to talk and advise. but part of the problem is the frustration the Scouts feel due to adult. Give you a good example. SPL was working with new Scouts, when a parent took over the job. SPL just walked away and started goofing off.

Instead of putting this in Helicopter thread, starting a new one based on as specific issue, and one that will be raised at the upcoming adult meeting: troop elections. Here's background. currently the Scouts can have 1 six month term of office, and then cannot run for again for that position for six months. So I Sammy Second Class is PL from January to June, he cannot run for reelection until the next January. That was the rule before my son joined, and I've been told it is to spread the leadership roles around. Several ASMs and committee members are complaining that the same Scouts keep getting elected over and over again. They want to place term limits i.e. you can only hold a position twice. This has been mentioned before, but one of the MCs was complaining about it last night. Said her Scout is frustrated that the same people keep getting elected, and that he has never been elected PL or SPL, only appointed to another position. He ran for SPL, and didn't get it. He ran for PL, AND VOTED FOR THE OTHER PERSON! (emphasis) I know this because he wrote his ballot, gave it to the SM, and had to leave due to family issues. Again HE VOTED FOR THE OTHER PERSON! (emphasis). I mentioned this to the MC, and was told "he didn't want PL, he wanted SPL or ASPL, because no one listens to the PLs." (not listening to the PLS is another issue, focusing on the election one first.) Now here's the deal. I've talked to my sons to get a feel for what is going on in the troop. Regarding this particular Scout, my younger son told me who he voted for the PL who wanted the position, and that the Scout above doesn't seem to want to be PL. He didn't know about the absentee vote. Both sons stated they voted for the ones who they thought not only wanted the job, but would be good at it. And they commented on the entire slate of candidates. Some they didn't think would do a good job, The SPL elected had been SPL before and did a good job, so they voted for him. One is involved with sports, and they were concerned his sport would interfere as it had in the past when he was SPL. One they were concerned about his lack of expereince. And the Scout above they thought was not really interested in the job, and therefor would not do a good job. My thoughts are that the Scouts know who will, and who will not do a good job. I think they know better than the adults honestly because they are in the patrols with them and know them better. I also think expereinced Scouts know better than to make elections a popularity contest. The NSP that failed miserably had a popular PL, who was not truly interested in doing the job, and complained about it the entire term of office. So to prepare for this discussion, I want your thoughts, times you've been in this situation, and how you countered the arguments for adult interference. I am one of those who cannot think fast on my feet, but rather need to think ahead and come up with points deliberatively. So your help is welcomed. Thanks in advance.

It's British. http://hmvf.co.uk/topic/18314-58-pattern-sleeping-bag/ suggest using a NikWax wash. REI has this advice for down. https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/caring-sleeping-bag.html

Yes, they can call law enforcement on you for trespassing if you don't follow the rules. We had a group at camp setting off fireworks, and they were kicked out of camp. Another time one "Scout" was causing so much trouble at summer camp, that the SM wanted him gone and contacted the parents. When the parents said no, they would not pick him up, it went to the camp director. Camp director discussed it with the parents and gave them a time limit to settle their bill, come home from their second honeymoon at Disney, and pick up the "Scout." Otherwise he would be turned over to authorities as trespassing.

#1 Don't know #2 Partially Correct. One Scout came from either Argentina,or Chile I thought, to New York's 1939 World's Fair by himself. I forgot how long it took, but remember he started with his Patrol. Some got sick and returned home. 1 died on the trek. All malaria if I recall. The remaining patrol members got arrested as revolutionaries and imprisoned until released. That's when the bulk went home. Read a book on him back in the day. EDITED: Ok, found the reference Stosh was talking about. Two men walked 8,000 miles from Caracas, Venezuela to Washington D.C. in 1937. The men wanted to attend the Boy Scout Jamboree but didn't have the funds to pay for the trip. They departed from Caracas on January 11, 1935 and covered a distance of 25 miles a day for two years. The young men reached their destination on June 16, 1937, to register themselves for the jamboree. http://www.lifebuzz.com/how-far/?p=-1&utm_campaign=email&utm_source=email&utm_medium=email Trying to find the Scout from Chile who went to New York i 1939 or 40.

Forgot to add, I've carried a Bent's Fort Scalper and a Becker 21 knives.

I've known about the changes since August. The camporee I was in charge of was wilderness survival based, and a few events required a sheath knife. FWIW, the council does not have a policy against sheath knives at the local camp the event was held at. But they are prohibited at summer camp. So councils can make their own rules, even if legal in your jurisdiction. When I visited the neighboring council, i asked if they would sell those Helle knives, answer is no b/c that council prohibits them.

I notice there is still no date on any BSA publication except 'Fall 2018" But the National Catholic Committee on Scouting gives a date of January 1, 2018.

I'm going by memory, so bear with me. The PATROL came first. When BP wrote his Aids to Scouting: NCOs and Men prior to 1905, he was surprised to find many boys creating their patrols and doing what he wrote for the military on their own. These impromptu patrols are one of the things that led to the experiment at Brownsea Island in 1907. Even at Brownsea, he separated those first 22 Scouts into patrols: Wolves, Bulls, Ravens, and CURLEWS! ( yes I'm a Cocky Curlew of the Brownsea Camp...) No where was the term "troop" used at Brownsea as far as I recall. Here is where it gets interesting, and memory can prove wrong. When Scouting for Boys was printed in a series of articles, patrols were springing up everywhere. Patrols had no adult supervision, and were getting into trouble. One story I read involved a patrol trespassing on property they were camping on. All was well, but BP got wind of it, and decided Scoutmasters needed to be involved in the process for supervision. And Scouting For Boys the book was written with only 2 page references to Scoutmasters. At least in the World Brotherhood Edition of Scouting for Boys based upon William Hillcourt's version ( requirements for ranks were removed, more BP art, and oriented to the Canadian Scouts.') SO IT IS AN EDITED VERSION OF THE ORIGINAL BOOK! ( emphasis) In the book, "Patrol" is used on 29 Pages compared to "Troop" on 6 pages. So obviously B-P, and later William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, emphasized the importance of the patrol over the troop. BUT WHAT CAME FIRST, EAGLE94-A1, THE PATROL OR THE TROOP? Apparently it is the.... PATROL. On page 30 It states "To be a Scout you should join a Scout PATROL (emphasis added) or a Scout Troop in you neighborhood....." Page 38 defines a Scout Troop as "...two or more patrols of six to eight boys." So according to B-P, A troop cannot exist until 2 or more patrols are formed. Hope this helps.

Ok, I know I made the camporee Webelos Friendly. Heck all the events save one were based upon Wilderness Survival MB, and Castaway Adventure Badge is Wilderness Survival MB lite. So it was natural. Plus events were optional for the Webelos. Their 'camporee" comes in March. The purpose of Webelos attending is to A) get them use to their potential troop and help with Recruiting B) Show them what to expect as Boy Scouts, and C ) HAVE FUN! But "Cub Friendly?" An aside, we had one local camp ground reopen, and one new parents is happy b/c it is 500' from city limits. I have a feeling the PLC will be having a "Heck No" over that suggestion.

HOLY CRAP! You now got me thinking about my camporee. My DE created a Cub Scout event the same weekend and location as our camporee. Initially no one knew about it, and I posted it was a mistake and that no Cub Scout event was planned. Then I got a nastygram from the DE saying in no uncertain terms that the Cub event WILL go on, and that it will not interfere with the Camporee. Well it did. I had to spend extra money buying supplies to mark off the Cub Scout area from a campsite that 2 troops were using. I also had to spend time rearranging events and reshooting the compass course since one event was now in the Cub area, and the course took them through the Cub area. Then when the DE could not make it, I got left hanging. And supposedly Cubs were not suppose to camp, but I know of at least 1 that did. And I got all kinds of heck when I tried to tell the troop that it wasn't allowed. Eventually I said the heck with it since I told the DE that there would be Cubs camping, even if they were not suppose to. Maybe getting the camporee "family friendly" was the point of him making a Cub event the same place and time?

I think what Col. Flagg is trying to point out is that national's marketing and publishing folks are pushing articles and merchandise in an attempt to get us use to the changes that are coming before they happen. And I do agree with him. It seems as if national is trying to get us acclimated to the idea before they announce it. And in addition to the family camping articles with Boy Scout age youth, has anyone seen some of the PSAs aout Scouting for the whole family that have the Boy Scouts camping and doing things with Cub Scouts? If I can find the link, i'll post

Going to go off on a tangent. And moderators, if this is going too far off base, let me know. A recent story I was told keeps hitting me when I see this thread. Not only should parents stay out of they way, but I'm thinking sometimes it's a good thing for adult Scouters to miss something so their sons can experience stuff with out them around. I say that because I was told about a Scout whose dad has been on every single trip since he has been a Cub Scout. Heck, the kid has never done anything outside of Scouting without either his dad or mom attending. Now the son is getting ready to graduate and is terrified of leaving home and being by himself. Scout has been offered several out of state athletic scholarships, but will not take them because he is afraid to leave home. Scout won't even look at in-state colleges, including the one where his aunt lives. She has offered to put him up. Instead he wants either to go tot he local private college, or go to the community college, and then transfer to an in-state college he can do online courses so he can stay home with dad.