Eagle94-A1

I love the double standards that BSA has. The rules apply to thee, but not to me.

Correct, I hate to say it, and I find it a ridiculous rule, but family camping now violates YP rules, except at the Cub Scout Level. Long story short, if you have a litigious family in your unit, and trust me you won't know until you are sued, and something happens, they will sue everyone. Even if it is not a BSA event, but you are using troop equipment and resources to promote the event or at the event, the lawyers will go after CO and BSA, in addition to you.

Again, I would follow current BSA policies, and cancel family camping. And looking at the Age Appropriate Guidelines Chart, https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf?_gl=1*1cs29xm*_ga*OTQ3ODk0MTA5LjE2OTAzMDE3Nzk.*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTY5MzMxNTg2My40LjEuMTY5MzMxNTg4NC4zOS4wLjA.&_ga=2.6422011.839612725.1693315864-947894109.1690301779 , Family Camping has not been listed as an approved Scouts BSA activity since at least August 2021. As for making it "an unofficial gathering of friends" You are putting the Scouters and CO in legal and financial danger if anything happens. BSA has thrown thousands of COs under the bus with the bankruptcy, what makes you think they would not throw you under the bus? It is not worth it.

I would not go there. It is putting you and your CO in legal danger if something happens.

@dangale, as @ToKindle96 pointed out, unless all adults are registered in a unit position, MBCs no longer count, adults can no longer camp with troops, ships, posts, and crews effective this weekend.

Another nail in the coffin of the OA IMHO. While cheerful service is the heart of the OA, AIA was the spirit that motivated and guided.

Because the COR not only represents the CO at the district and council levels, they are voting members of both, and will be listened to more as a result. Only person who could possibly change that is the Catholic Church's IH, and that is if the charter is still in effect since the transfer paperwork has been filled out and signed. More on that below. This is one way to do it. It is probably the best Another way is the following, but it is drastic. Since the Lutheran Church already has a troop, they have a COR. I would have the SM, CC and the Lutheran Church's COR meet with the SE with all the transfer paperwork and signatures and have the SE explain why you cannot charter with the Lutheran Church, especially since they want a unit.. My understanding is that once the release paperwork is signed, the Catholic Church is no longer a CO, and the COR no longer has any authority unless the Lutheran Church appoints him COR. But tthe catholic Church keeps the money and property, unless they agree to transfer that as well. Good Luck

My council is charging a fee for all registered adults, including MBCs. I am told the fee covers insurance, but since MBCs cannot camp, shouldn't be discounted?

Is any other council adding the council fee to MBCs? Mine is.

@SiouxRanger Yes the IVF did have limitations due to the technology of the time. But can you come up with something better with the technology of the time? I think a lot of folks do not remember the limitations of the times. As for the folks who implemented the IVF, one was a top notch, well respected lawyer on youth issues at the time. His name was James E. West. As for other entities and abuse, what about the US Olympic Women's Gymnastic team? Penn State was already mentioned. And there are others that I cannot think of at the moment. If I can find my research notes, I will give you the stats you keep asking for. grant you my research is dated, did it in my undergrad days, but it is out there for folks to see. And if memory, serves other organizations besides sports are included. But remember, sexual abuse was something reported to authorities or prosecuted like to today. Even the IVF files note that parents did not want to subject their children to the trauma of a public trial. And mandatory reporting laws did not really come about for youth organization volunteers until the mid 1980s. So more than likely my information is underreported.

Again, if the SM designates a youth to sign off on advancement, SCOOUTBOOK will not allow it to be approved. An adult has to approve it, which defeats the purpose of Scouting in general, and the Patrol Methods specifically.

My question is specific to COs: Is National and/or councils responsible for the CO's liability since they were promised protection under BSA's policies? When this type of liability issue came up back in the day, I was told by my DFS to tell the IH that they were protected under BSA's insurance. Going back even further, while I was in college, the outdoor club was looking at joining some national organization for insurance, and they were told the same thing by the DE.

(sarcasm on) What's a 'Thank You?" (sarcasm off) I have not heard that sentence from a pro in ages. I too am a former pro, and I was taught you ALWAYS (major emphasis) take care of your volunteers, for without them you will not meet your goals. Sadly the pros in my neck of the woods do not understand that, and have not understood that for quite some time. At least 10 years, if not longer, the pros have been like this as a norm. Best case scenario was a DE planning an event 3-4 weeks prior to the event, asking folks to help, when those who could help were either going to, or coming from summer camp that same weekend. The DE sent out an email insulting the volunteers and blaming them for having to cancel the event. Worse is when the SE yells at your district chair. stating he had an incestuous relationship with their mother and to do anatomically impossible acts on themselves, all because of a disagreement over either an activity, volunteer to run an activity, or both. Worse part was the chair was a well respected, influential business leader in the community. Word of mouth spread about the incident, and FOS suffered.

Agree. But sometimes they are ignored, told they do not know what they are talking about, yelled at, or cursed out at (yes that has happened). Sometimes the experienced folks say the heck with it. and quit. Sadly in some cases it has gotten to the point in some areas that no one wants to be involved in district/council activities. Why spend all the time, energy, emotion, and money to run an event and not be appreciated or respected. As for long term camp, some units do not go to their summer camp because the complaints are never resolved. In fact sometimes it gets worse. When former staffers do not want to send their troops to camp There is a problem. When one of the most gung-ho, Flavoraid drinking, pro-council summer camp staffer, and long term staffers quits after the first week of camp, there is a problem.

One of the challenges as I see it, at least in my area, is that everyone thinks the bankruptcy is over. You tell them we still need to deal with the appeals process, and folks think you are a naysayer or rumormonger. But now we have this, which may affect COs and Councils. https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-supreme-court-scrutinize-purdue-pharma-bankruptcy-settlement-2023-08-10/ To quote Han Solo, et al, "I have a bad feeling about this." Understatement. right now only 2 Scouts in my unit are paying their own registration and council fees. everyone else is either using an insurance program, or have a unit scholarship. I know folks compare Scouting to sports and saying it is a deal. But there are families that can barely afford Scouting, even with assistance, and in no way can pay for sports. As for volunteers, I know a lot of old timers are getting tired. We see the mess BSA is in, offer ideas to improve the situation, and are ignored at best. Plus in my area there is a history of verbal abuse of volunteers, and they walk away. Plus the increase in fees also affects volunteers. inflation keeps rising, but my salary is not keeping up. Sadly I agree. I have no confidence in council and national professionals anymore. Locally, I asked about the new membership process and was told to keep doing what we have always done, pay the council office. I think National came out with direct payments scheme, before they had a system in place, or even thought how it would affect units.. Would not be the first time BSA created something without having things in place. Anyone else remember when Venturing split from Exploring? I can understand issuing Venturing, BSA strips for the Exploring BSA shirts in stock, but no pants, shorts, belts, or socks for the first one to two years depending upon the item. Also anyone else remember when the Centennial Uniforms came out, and the chaos it caused>

I worked at Scout camps in the USA from 1996 to 2001. CITs never had to pay. I know at one of the camps, they attended staff week with the rest of the paid staff. They were full fledged staff members with staff t-shirts, hats, polos, and dominoes (local staff emblem). They never had to pay to play. They helped the MBCs, and in a few cases were teaching classes. I remember a few were working in First Year Camping teaching basic T-2-1 skills with the retired Marine. I know we had some in the trading post, but they knew before they came to staff week they were going there. And for the last week, when it was slowest and were not needed as much, they did the HA program at the camp as a thank you. We took care of our CITs because we depended on them so much. Sorry cannot remember the second camp I worked at, but want to say they did as well.

I am shocked council got involved. we have had similar situations, and they will not intervene.

@Brannigan, Did council remove the person, or the CC remove them? I ask because when a similar situation occurred, I was told "Council does not get involved unless something criminal happens." If council removed them, then something more happened, and charges may be forthcoming.

All true. I would also add horrific leadership who will punish you if you do the right thing. Another factor probably not as well known is stress on family life. The divorce rate is extremely high among pros. Worse case was the DE who supported his wife through law school. First thing she did once admitted to the bar was serve him divorce papers. One of my coworkers was on wife three. The few exceptions are working twice as hard to meet their goals. And if the higher ups are on their case, even if meeting goals, they continue adding pressure to you until you want to quit. 100% correct. Add in get promoted to a national position. Seen a horrific SE get promoted to a national position. Sadly it seems that even if you get a good SE, he was "punished" for something. One of the best, honest, hardworking SE's I've ever met was "promoted" to an SE position that really was a demotion. He was a Director of Field Service in a very large metro council. He discovered some financial irregularities that eventually led to embezzlement charges. His "reward" was being promoted to one of the smallest councils in the BSA. One field director he had as DFS of the Metro council had more DEs under than, than the entire council he became SE of. It gets frustrating for the good ones.

Sadly @DuctTape is correct d some SEs are indeed despots. BSA pros have been going on for some time. I remember an SE telling his subordinates how to do it on the district level.

I actually heard of a council board firing the SE. Sadly he got hired in a larger council as a DFS.

I believe they are making it up as they go along. I had a bunch of questions regarding the new registration process, and the pros could not answer them except to say "Keep doing what you do now." To quote C3-P0,

What else is new. When I worked for national, I had someone over me who had no experience with the program or summer camp experience. I created a SOP manual that included diagrams, schedules, etc for a trading post. They had no idea what happens at camp, and wanted us to work ridiculous hours that would not have benefitted campers, Scouters, or staff. We ended up compromising by opening up the hours I knew would work, and staying open during during the hours they wanted. Long story short, sales data showing the most productive hours had to be used to show the times I suggested worked. Further they thought they knew better about how to organize the shop., but didn't communicate this. Long story short, they got mad when we rearranged the shop according to the diagram in the SOP manual they approved. They stopped by to visit what they thought would be a slow time. It was actually the busiest, and the design of the store was shown to be better than what they set up.

Have you any evidence that BSA covered up crimes? In the reports I have read, once BSA became aware of the situation they removed the individual from Scouting. Depending upon jurisdiction, mandatory reporting laws came for youth volunteers came about in the late 1970s to late 1980s (first mandatory reporting laws only protected physicians from false reports, and they started in the late 1960s/early 1970s). In the files I have read, it is noted that parents did not want to prosecute the pedophile because they did not want their child to relive the horrors in court. One file showed a pedophile going to a mental institution instead of jail because the parents would not press charges. Once he was released from the mental institution, he moved to a new location, and applied to work for the BSA. If it wasn't for the Ineligible Volunteer File that had him in it, he may have gotten hired since he did have a clean background. Another situation I am aware of was never reported to anyone.. The individual was a 'well respected and upright member of the community," Individual knew no one would believe him, except his parents, and he did not want his father taking the law into his own hands. He does not blame BSA, but the abuser, who is now long dead.

I understand, but you did state: and I responded. And yes, the records were lost, deleted, etc. Let's face it, BSA's technology is horrible. Most of the CIOs had none, zero, zip IT experience. They were a former SEs who put their time in. I know 1 person in that position with an IT background, and he left in approximately 6 months. Do not know who has been in charge since him.