BrentAllen

WDL Mom, I'm not sure if I can offer much advice, as our Pack is chartered by the school PTA and the kids all go to that school. All but one of the boys in my son's den (Webelos II) have known each other since Kindergarten. We did stumble onto something at our Webelos Woods that might be of some help. On Saturday, the dens rotated around and learned some skills (knots, first aid, etc...). On Sunday, I put together a sort of obstacle course for the dens to compete against each other. They started out with the plank walking, then went to tying out a tarp using the correct knots, then making a stretcher out of 2 poles and 2 jackets to carry a folded up camp chair, and finally building a fire to burn a string between 2 stakes. The dens were all competing against one another to see who finished first. I could actually see the teamwork forming, the leaders rising from the group, and the comraderie building. It doesn't have to be an event just like this, but find something where they can compete against others in a manner that will require them to count on each other and work together. The only other suggestion would be to let them start tenting together on campouts, if you aren't already. Let 2 or 3 of them share a tent, and the adults tent together close by. We did have one new boy transfer into my son's den this year. After one campout of tenting with a couple of the other boys, he fit right in with the rest of them. Good luck!

I am really disappointed in the video. I was expecting something new and exciting - the video looks like pretty traditional Scouting to me. Where are the skate boards and the electronic games? None of those kids had a single IPOD! This must be fake! Where are the new "icons"? I saw plenty of traditional Scout uniforms - how can that be?? I thought there were going to be new "fast food" uniforms!? Where are the computers?? The new flashy patrol names?? I actuall saw boys putting up a tent and sitting around a campfire - we know that isn't of any interest to today's teenagers! They were using compasses, not flashy new GPS units - what caveman put this together?? I didn't see a single NASCAR driver or car! I am just incredibly disappointed in this effort - nothing has changed! [sarcasm off](This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Oak Tree, I will try again to show you the error in your thinking. The number 4 at the top of the marbles did not represent Eagles, it only represented the number of 17 year olds in the group. According to the statistics, the number of Eagles would be 5, representing the 50,000 each year. Now, those 5 do not come from any one level of the marbles, or from a particular age group. There could be 1 14 year old, 1 15 y.o., 2 16 y.o's, and 1 17 y.o.. So those 5 came from 4 different groups of 25 that started when they were 11. That makes 5 out of 100 (4 starting groups of 25 each). Next year, 5 different Eagles will be pulled from the group, representing 4 groups of 25 that also started when they were 11 (100 total). The group of 5 Eagles is always different, and the 4 different years of starting groups is different every year. Yes, there is some overlap each year, but there are also more boys that only try Scouting for 1 year than this model will show. Your 4/21 only includes those Scouts who dropped out, and doesn't account for those boys in Scouts, in the pipeline. As the marbles show, there are 7 years worth of boys in the pipeline which must be counted as well. But the 21 you use only includes those who dropped out, not the ones that are still in. Remember, in a 12 month period, while those 21 are dropping/aging out, 25 new Scouts are entering. That is 46 different names that are on the rolls for a given year, plus the rest in the pipeline. Last try. If you don't see it, then you don't see it. It is there, however.

I don't know, pack - I guess we ran out of other subjects to argue about. :-) Do you know of any Troops where 15 - 20% of the boys earn Eagle? I sure don't.

Hunt, I agree with your reasoning, and hopefully the boys will recognize the reasoning as well. The problem I see is some adults will see a boy throwing on a uniform shirt on the way to a meeting, after a sports game or practice, and encourage that as an attempt to be in uniform. I totally disagree - I would rather they just attend the meeting in their sports clothes than wear half the uniform. I think wearing just the shirt looks bad, and sends the wrong message. Next thing you know, half the Troop or Pack is wearing only the shirt, even though they didn't just arrive from a game or practice. Jeffrey H, The Insignia Guide contains the Excerpt From the Rules and Regulations for uniforms, and it states the same thing. These are the rules, not guidelines. You are correct that a boy doesn't have to wear a uniform to be in Scouts, but the rules and regulations state if you are going to wear the uniform, you wear it correctly, according to the regs. You won't see anyone lose a charter over it; you will rarely see anyone lose a charter over any violation of many of the rules that happen all the time. I think it is important to point out to a Pack that they don't have the authority to change the uniform - they probably don't realize they can't do that.

Oak Tree, You are still only counting one part of then entire set of Scouts - you have to count both - the existing Scouts and the Scouts that enter and leave in a year. Just for the sake of clarity, let's assume Scouting started in the year 2000. There are 1 million Scouts, from ages 11 - 17, but all are Tenderfoots. In 2001, 250,000 new Scouts enter and the same number age out (the number of total Scouts doesn't change much each year, correct?). We now have some Scouts who have reached First Class, and the total set of Scouts has grown from 1 million to 1,250,000. In the year 2002, we have the same change - 250,000 new Webelos join, and the same number leaves. We now have some Star and Life Scouts, and the total set of boys who were Scouts has grown to 1,500,000. Now it is 2003, and our first 50,0000 Eagles are earned. We have the same change, with 250,000 new Scouts in and 250,000 out, keeping the ranks at 1 million for the year. But the number of boys who have been in Scouting while these 50,000 earned their Eagle is 2 million. In 2004, the same will happen - 50,000 earn Eagle, but none of these are boys that just joined in 2004. It takes 4 years to earn Eagle, so you have to count the total number of boys who have entered and left during those 4 years. This pattern will repeat itself over and over again. Another way to look at it. Imagine marbles laid out on the floor in the following pattern, representing each age group in Scouts, and each marble represents 10,000 Scouts, for a total of 1 million. 17 - 4 16 - 7 15 - 10 14 - 14 13 - 18 12 - 22 11 - 25 Now, picture a second group of marbles, which are those that drop out. Each year, a new group of 25 comes in at the bottom. As the kids move up in age, a number of them will drop out - correct? We know from looking at the numbers that the total number of boys in Scouts each year remains almost constant. Count the number of marbles moved to the drop out group (25-22, 22-18, etc...) and you come up with 21. Those were kids who were in Scouts, but never reached Eagle. You have to count them, along with the 1 million that are still in. Add another group of 25 at the bottom for another year, and subtract out those who dropped out, and add them to the drop out group. You are now up to 42 for the second year. It takes a Scout at least 4 years to earn Eagle, most are probably around 5 or 6 years. In those years, there will be 1 million boys (100 marbles) that entered and dropped out, in addition to the 1 million that are still in during a given year. It will be the same for the 50,000 Eagles that earn the rank next year. You have to count the number of boys that stayed in, and all the boys that dropped out from the time the Eagle first joined Scouts, 4, 5 or 6 years earlier. You have to count both groups of marbles for the period of time it took the Scout to earn Eagle.

Ed, Only if it is by coincidence. I just pulled that article after a google search, to show how public these teen cases are. Brent

nldscout, That may be NY law, but it doesn't appear to apply in Wisconsin. See below. As for my reason for voting no, I would state the teen had been charged with a felony, and we had no proof he was cleared of the charge. BTW, a limited disclosure can be requested, and the defendant can request a disclosure. For me, the burden of proof would be on him. (AP) HARTFORD, Wis. A 16-year-old student has been ordered to pay $38,000 in restitution to Hartford Union High School and local police after making a bomb threat. The teen also was sentenced to the juvenile detention center in the Washington County Jail, according to the Hartford Police Department. It did not say how long he must stay there. The 16-year-old was one of two students charged with making the Oct. 6 bomb threat. Hartford Police Chief David Groves said the teen pleaded no contest to the charge. The second teen, Matthew J. Windisch, 17, of Hartford faces a maximum sentence of 3 1/2 years in prison and a $10,000 fine if convicted. Neither teen attends the school any longer, said Michael Kremer, interim district superintendent. The criminal complaint in the case said the teens wrote a note in first-hour study hall that read, "Boom, boom, boom in every room at noon, so be ready to die." It was dropped in a hallway and found by another student, who turned it over to school officials. They evacuated the school and canceled classes as a precaution. Hartford police and sheriff's deputies brought in dogs from Milwaukee, Outagamie and Washington counties to search the school. No explosives were found. Kremer said the $38,345 in restitution will cover the cost of bringing in the Milwaukee and Outagamie sheriff's departments, $2,652 for lunches the school threw out and nearly $35,000 in lost staff time. Windisch told police that the 16-year-old "brought up the idea of a bomb threat to get out of school early" and that Windisch told the younger boy that "it would be nice to get out of school early but a bomb threat wasn't such a good idea," according to the complaint.

Hunt writes: "So is Scouts more like a rec league where the kids play for fun and nobody raises a fuss if the soccer shorts don't have a stripe down the side, or more like a travel or school team where those kinds of rules are strictly enforced by adults? Or is the analogy just not all that helpful?" I guess it depends on how you feel about Scouting. Do you treat it as you would a rec league where kids are just playing for fun, or do you treat it as one of the most important programs your son will ever participate in? Is Scouting something you just do one night a week, or is it a way of life for you and your son? Does the rec league have a rich history, with many notable players wearing the uniform in the past? Would wearing the wrong shorts be seen as disrespectful to those who have worn the uniform previously? I doubt it, but the same doesn't hold for Scouting.

So, nldscout, if one of the 15 year olds in the following article was a Life Scout going before an EBOR in your District, you are telling me you would vote yes, because - how did you say it - "because in the eyes of the public it didn't happen."? I'm sure those shoppers at Walmart felt this happened in the eyes of the public! And you don't think everyone in the area would know who they were, and what happened to them? If that doesn't disqualify one for Eagle, then what does?? SKOWHEGAN, Me. (AP) - Two teenaged boys have been charged with setting off two homemade bombs inside a Wal-Mart in Maine filled with holiday shoppers, authorities said. Hundreds of customers were evacuated from the store when the acid bombs detonated Saturday afternoon. At least eight people were treated for irritation to their eyes and throat or ringing in their ears, said Stephen McCausland, spokesman for the state Department of Public Safety. The boys, both 15, were taken into custody after photos from the store's security cameras where shown on television newscasts. Investigators said they identified the boys after showing the photos to teenagers at a McDonald's. The parents of one of the boys also recognized them in the photos and met with investigators, said McCausland. Both teens were charged with criminal use of explosives and released early Sunday morning to their parents. Authorities said the teens had made three other explosive devices and placed one on the roof of a downtown business and two on the lawn of a residence. Those three bombs, none of which had detonated, were being retrieved by investigators, McCausland said. A store manager said the Wal-Mart opened for business Sunday and referred all questions to police.

Getting back to the original subject, if the Scout was convicted of a felony in the past year or so, especially after reaching the rank of First Class, I would have to ask had he not learned anything at all about being a Scout in his time with the Troop? If he was Life on the verge of Eagle when convicted, I would vote no and be wondering how he could end up in such a situation after spending so many years in the program. Did he not learn anything about proper behaviour, about citizenship, about making the right decisions on his path to Eagle? What a sad situation. Oak Tree, As I replied to you in another thread, your math is incorrect on the 15%. Your assumption is based on no new Scouts in those 3 years, which would never happen.

As the husband of a 3rd Grade reading teacher, I can tell you the best thing you can do for your son is surround him with material to read. It doesn't matter whether it is comic books or the classics, find something he is interested in and provide him with age-appropriate reading material on the subject. Get him hooked on reading first, and the other subjects will follow. Boy's Life is great reading material! And it is a very good value! We just build it into our dues

We have some Pros who serve as staff off the clock, as volunteers. I've asked my DE to staff a position when a volunteer couldn't make it. So yes, most are by volunteers, some by Pros.

Hard for me to narrow it down to just 3. Council camps - we have 3, and the Summer Camp at Woodruff is great! Training - 3 Wood Badge courses each year, Wilderness First Aid offered many times, Powder Horn offered once, BALOO offered twice, Scouters' Academy offered once, District Committee training once, Trainer Development offered once, probably more I can't think of. Some are staffed by volunteers, others by Pro's. Scout Shop - 2 locations - big one at Council HQ, another at one of the camps. Council Banquet - top quality production to award Silver Beavers. DE - I call on my DE ALL the time. Funny, but he has never once mentioned Popcorn sales to me. Web Page - just recreated, with lots of info, easy to use.

Owl, I'd say you need to work on that "tact" trait, after reading your response to Sue M. A little over the top, eh? I'd say you are putting an awful lot of words in her mouth, and are assuming a lot about any preconceived notions. I thought her post was completely innocent of any of your charges. Now, as far as your traits - do the boys administer justice and punishment in your unit? If so, what kind of punishments? What excercises are you employing to teach your boys endurance to withstand pain, fatigue, stress and hardship? And you expect a 13 year old PL to treat the boys in his patrol as if they were his sons? Now, I would like to see how that is taught!

Great answers above! The only skills I would add would be learning knots and basic first aid. It is hard to set up camp without knowing a few basic knots - bowline, clove hitch, two-half hitches or a taugh-line hitch. When teaching these, I have found that unless you show them a real world application, they go in one ear and out the other. Showing the boys how to set up a small tarp as a simple shelter lets them see how to use the knots - clove hitch to tie main rope, bowlines on the 4 corners, and two-half hitches or taught-line at the stakes. I could light bulbs clicking on when we did this excercise. Basic first aid for cuts, burns and shock should cover most problems they might see. I would start introducing these skills at the Bear level. By time the reach Webelos II's, the skills might have sunk in.

dsantos, I direct you to the Cub Scout Leader Book - let it answer the question for you. pg. 12-11, How To Wear The Uniform. "Uniform parts should not be worn separately or with civilian clothing. The entire uniform should be worn or not at all. The pack does not have the authority to make changes to the uniform." Same page, under How To Uniform Your Pack. "Remember that uniforms identify boys and leaders as members of the BSA. Make sure that they wear the full and correct uniform." I like to ask what would happen if their son showed up to a baseball, basketball, soccer or football game wearing only their uniform shirt. Would they get to play?

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! The Cub Scout's Thanksgiving O, Heavenly Father, we ask for Your blessing For loved ones and friends that are near. We thank you for food and for love and for life And the Spirit of Cub Scouting that's here We thank you for leaders who care about boys, Who give us their time--that's better than toys! We thank you for dads who help us learn right, For moms who sew on our badges at night. For all this, thank you dear Lord, up above, For being in Scouting is something we love! Yours in Scouting, Brent Allen

Gonzo, I think Estee is across the big pond. We have some international Scouters on this page also.

Gonzo, Just wanted to get a couple of more swings on this dead horse.. :-) I honestly believe the following are the results of my attending WB in 2004, as an Asst. Cubmaster and then moving up to CM. Understand we had an excellent Pack in place already so these improvements were kind of like going from an A to an A+, which is much harder than going from a C to an A: Pack went from around 90 boys to 120 boys. Popcorn sales went from $16,500 to $26,000. Pack went from waist-up uniform to full uniform. Camping attendance went from around 45% to 75%. Trained leaders went from just a handful in the Pack to every den (11) having a Trained DL and nearly all have a Trained ADL. BALOO trained leaders went from 1 to 6. Our Webelos II's used to visit one Troop and go on one Troop campout. Now they visit 3 Troops and go on campouts with all 3. We held our first overnight District Webelos Woods since anyone can remember. (I'm also District Activities Chair). We are working to make our District Awards Banquet bigger, better and more exciting, to draw a larger crowd - a work in progress. Like most Scouters, I wear many hats. I started with ADL, then ACM, then CM. After WB came District Activities Chair, Scouters' Academy Steering Committee Cub Scout Chair, and Council Long Term Strategic Planning Committee - Cub Scout Advancement. I serve as a Den Guide at Day Camp, and put together the Webelos Woods campout mentioned earlier. There is no way I could have done the above without WB training - especially the changes in the Pack. Now, if I had to wait until I was a Boy Scout leader, we could erase all those results - would that be a good idea? I totally agree with you about the outdoor training needed to be a Boy Scout leader. I know they get some of that through SLT, but it sounds like there could be more added (I'm attending that training in Feb.). My suggestion would be to leave WB the way it is, and come up with another course similar to Powderhorn for SM's and ASM's. In another thread a member (SR540Beaver, I think) mentioned their Council was offering such a course, and it sounded very good. A Troop may have Committee Members (CC, Treas, Sect, etc...) who would benefit from the leadership and management taught in WB but don't need the outdoor training. Everything I have put into the Pack paid off yesterday in a simple conversation with a mother of a 2nd Grader at our school. She said they had missed the boat signing up for Cub Scouts at the start of the year, and she had hoped her son would forget about it after awhile. Her quote was something like "... but his friends in the Pack are having so much fun and are so excited about Scouts they are always talking about it, he keeps begging me to join." That has been my number one goal from the start - to make Scouting so exciting that other boys will hear about it from their friends, and will beg their parents to join. I owe that to WB, because it taught me that anything is possible with the proper leadership and planning. Not everyone attending WB may get that same message, but I sure did!

Gonzo, My dad went through WB in 1979 - he would probably say your course was watered down! :-) Some of it is perspective, some of it is changing the goals of WB. I don't see it as watered down, but changing to meet the needs of today's leaders. I took the week-long summer course, and we were rarely in the sack before midnight. It was one of the busiest weeks I have ever spent in camp, with hardly any down time. Instead of taking others words about the course being watered down, why not attend it and see for yourself? "Old" Wood Badgers are allowed to take the new course, and if you want to be considered for staff, you now have to attend 21st Century WB. I'm staffing the summer course at Bert Adams - come on out and attend!

Congratulations on the accomplishment, John! My only advice is to watch out for a common WB ailment - a speech impediment which prevents you from saying "no." Those beads are sometimes a neon sign flashing "Ask me, Ask me!" Enjoy them and carry on the tradition! I used to be a Fox....

I have both the Texas book and The Outdoor Dutch Oven Cookbook. Both are good. The Outdoor DOC is little more gourmet-ish, with some fancier recipes. The Texas book is much more southwestern cooking. Both offer more than just recipes, as well - good overall advice on using a Dutch oven. Another one I would mention, especiall for those just starting out - Camp Dutch Oven Cooking 101 from Backyard to Backwoods, from Lodge. I am assuming they offer it through their web page (www.lodgemfg.com). I picked it up at their Outlet store. Very simple, very good recipes. It has a recipe for Lazy Cobbler than seemed just too simple to be any good at all. We made two a couple of weeks ago - peach and blueberry - and they were as good as any I have had! You pretty much just dump the cans in the bottom, pour a box of cake mix on top evenly, sprinkle with cinnamon and put slices of cut up butter on top. Cover and cook for about 45 minutes. Maybe everyone makes it that way now, but my old recipes were a little more involved. This stuff was great! 12" Dutch oven

Gonzo writes: "If BSA is not careful, WB will be regarded as the "been there, done that" course, then most leaders will have beads and you'll look out of place if you don't have any." It sounds like you think that would be a bad idea. It sounds great to me! Would the BSA be worse off if nearly every leader attended Wood Badge? As long as the course is delivered as it should be, I don't see a problem with seeing lots of beads. I think I understand your point, that the course my lose it's significance - but if it is taught as I received it, I don't think it would become insignificant or mundane.

My son is will be crossing over in March, so we are looking at Boy Scout Troops. Our Pack isn't affiliated with a Troop; we are looking at several nearby. I think what I am seeing is commonplace in today's Scouting, but would like to hear from others around the country. The Troops have a certain number of boys registered, sayd 50 - 60. Out of that number, a percentage, usually around 1/2, will show up consistently for meetings. Another number will show up for camping trips. One Scouter described it that way - 3 numbers for a Troop: 1. Scouts registered. 2. Scouts attending weekly meetings. 3. Scouts going on campouts. There are a number of reasons given for the three numbers. Scouts are busy with other activities, some Scouts like the meetings, some like camping, etc.... The Troops try to be as accomodating as they can, just asking the Scouts to show up when they can. At meetings, activities, or campouts, they sometimes have enough to operate in defined Patrols, other times they don't, and form ad hoc Patrols. My questions - is this something that is happening everywhere, and is this how the problem is solved? Do you find the Scouts are learning the true lessons of the Patrol method? Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me, but I seem to remember we usually had very good turnout at both meetings and campouts. I don't remember having to combine Patrols to have enough members to function. This was back in the mid to late 70's, and we had plenty of boys playing other sports (including me). We also limited the Troop to 40 boys, and had a waiting list. Are the Troops making it too easy to skip meetings and campouts, in order to keep them at least minimally involved in Scouting? Does patronizing to these marginal Scouts hurt the rest who show up consistently? My admittedly inexperienced solution would be to divide the Scouts into 2 groups - full-timers and part-timers, and form Patrols in the two groups. Let those who show up regularly form Patrols and function as a group, really following and learning from the Patrol method. Let the others either fill in gaps with the full-timers, or form a part-time Patrol at each event. I'm sure there are many flaws with this idea. I'm curious to hear how others are handling the situation.