BrentAllen

Hey Eamonn, I'm with you! My SM held that position for 30 years - it fit him like a glove! As a Scout, it was very comforting knowing Mr. McCord was there, year after year. We always had a strong committee to back him, but he had the vision and made it happen. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. We always had a handful of ASM's to help out, many of them didn't even have sons in the troop. Mr. McCord was just a magnet that drew people to him, partly because they knew they were always going to have an exciting, challenging time. littlek, As Aquila calva mentioned, when your oldest son gets to Boy Scouts, you are probably going to want to get involved with the troop. Being an ASM and a CM would probably kill most mortals. I'm about to start that duo, but it will only be for two months (finishing up CM), and those two months are already planned on the CM side. I would not want to continue at both beyond that. CM is a great challenge and a lot of fun, but just wait until you get to Boy Scouts - then the real fun begins!

Kudu, The quotes I use from B-P are either from original source, or cited to original documents. Are you telling me "Footsteps of the Founder" is phony? I believe every single quote in there is cited. Please tell me which ones are phony.

Barry, In regard to adult intervention on camping trips and at meetings, I have code words to let parents and other leaders know they need to back off and let the boys do the work (and they can use them to remind me as well). One is "Where is your hiking stick?" All good Scouters need to keep a hiking stick in their hands, so they keep their hands out of the boys' work! :-) That is what a hiking stick is really for! The second is to ask if the parent's back belt loop is broken? In training, the question is usually asked, "What is the back belt loop on a new pair of adult Scout pants for?" Answer is, for an experienced Scouter to hook it with their finger and pull the parent/new Scouter back from the boys. It is still hard for me to understand how one can call a program boy-led when the boys can't vote for their peer leaders. Someone said we don't get to elect our bosses. That is true, but we aren't teaching our Scouts how to be good employees - we are teaching them how to be good citizens. In this country, electing our leaders is one of our most prized rights. I think appointing leaders fails in teaching this lesson, badly. Scouting is not the military. Stosh and Kudu state the PL should be in charge of signing off on T-FC requirements, and if an adult is involved, it takes the power away from the PL. Since the BSA program, which is used for TLT, states an adult will sign off, I don't see how that can be seen as "emasculating" the PL. If you want the PL involved, have him sign off first and then recommend a Scout to the ASM/SM for testing. That gives the PL the "power" to make sure the Scouts in his patrol have met his standard before they go to the adults.

gwd, You won't find this on the Stone Mountain Park web page, but there are 2 youth group camping areas on the backside of the mountain. Our Pack is camping there in a couple of weeks. It is a little more secluded than the Family Camp Grounds. Cost is $6/person per night. You need a minimum of 15 people in your group to book. Call 1-800-401-2407 to book. If you get the recording, leave a message and they will call you back. These areas are labeled YG-2A and YG-2B, I think. Each camp holds around 60 campers. The Cherokee Trail runs around the mountain. It is maintained by a group that sponsors and Pack and Troop in our district. Their web page is http://www.cherokeetrail-ga.org/(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Kudu, yes, the 1908 edition - the original document, no? As to which program is "correct," I would argue that answer is self-evident, though Kudu isn't going to like it. If you are running a Troop under the BSA, then you follow the BSA program. If you alter the program, that is your Troop's decision. Just don't tell me I'm wrong for following the BSA program. There have been lots of thoughts about boy-lead bandied about, with some tied to B-P, some to his writings and quotes, and some not cited. While there is much information on Kudu's page, much of it is not cited, so I can't tell what has basis from B-P and what is personal opinion. I do not mean that as a criticism of Kudu's page, just an observation from a reader. I guess that is the problem I have with those suggesting methods other than the BSA program, especially when they tell me the BSA program is wrong, not boy-led. I can't tell what has a historical basis, and what is just personal opinion. It may not matter either way to some, but it does to me.

Kudu, When I read Scouting For Boys, I see the following about signing off on advancement: "Tests: To become a second-class scout and gain the motto badge, a boy must satisfy his scout master in the following details... To become a first-class scout and gain the whole scout's badge, a boy must pass the following test - in addition to those for second-class - before a Court of Honor." So, what was the definition of a Court of Honor? "A Court of Honor is formed of the scout master and two patrol leaders, or in the case of a single patrol by the patrol leader and the corporal [ADL]. It decides rewards, punishments, and other questions" According to the text, the SM was involved in testing, rewards and punishments. Doesn't this contradict your last post?

I would say the PLC, under the direction of the SM. I would suggest a little counseling to the PLC, from either the SM or SPL, reviewing the Scout Law and Oath, and asking them to put themselves in the shoes of those 3 Scouts. How would they feel if no one wanted them in their patrol? This will be a tough meeting for the PLC, working out these arrangements, but it should also be a great learning lesson. Do you have 3 other patrols those three boys could be split amongst? If not, it will be a tougher call.

I think most of us understand exactly what B-P meant when he put together the patrol method. I think you still fail to see the relationship between the two. According to you, there really isn't any need for a troop at all. Why would the boys in your patrols even need to be part of a troop? Question - when your boys join your Scouting group, do they join the troop or do they join a patrol? Who do they write the check to for their annual dues? According to B-P's method, the SM would choose the patrol leader - he would not be elected by the boys. How would you feel about that? As for the National Honor Patrol, those two patrol meetings take place AT A TROOP MEETING. Do you not have a Scoutmaster Handbook? It is clearly described in Chapter 5 (Troop Meetings), on pages 24, 25 and 27. The Seven-Step Troop Meeting, with Step 4 - Patrol Meetings. Does your PLC decide your annual calendar? Does your PLC meet once a month to plan the troop meeting? Would you describe what happens at your troop meetings?

Stosh, Do the patrols all go to Summer Camp the same week? If so, is this just a coincidence? Do they all want to go the same week? Do they camp in the same campsite as the other patrols in the troop, or do they get their own camp? Do your patrols wear troop numbers on their uniforms?

Stosh, I think you misunderstand the relationship between the patrols and the troop. Yes, the patrol is the most important unit, but it operates under the umbrella of the troop. Under your scenario, why would you ever have troop meetings? The boys would only meet as patrols. This is from B-P himself: "The Patrol system has a great character-training value if it is used aright. It leads each boy to see that he has some individual responsibility for the good of his Patrol. It leads each Patrol to see that is has definite responsibility for the good of the Troop. Through it the Scoutmaster is able to pass on not only his instruction but his ideas as to the moral outlook of his Scouts. Throught it the Scouts themselves gradually learn that they have considerable say in what their Troop does. It is the Patrol system that makes the Troop, and all Scouting for the matter, a real co-operative effort."

Stosh, Here is the revelation - if the BSA materials you are using for training says the SM should provide direction in the forming of patrols, how do you arrive at the conclusion that only the patrols involved should make that decision? Where does that method originate in the BSA training materials? As far as I can tell, it doesn't. You feel your troop is operating as a boy-led troop. They are, but under your and your troop's definition of boy-led, not the BSA's.

Stosh - question - does your troop conduct Troop Leadership Training (TLT)? If yes, what does the training consist of? What sources of material are used for the training? Who conducts it? Where did it orginiate? These are not questions to try to show you up. These are legitimate questions, leading to a revelation, I hope.

Kudu writes: ""Practical Christianity" is the term Baden-Powell uses to explain to Christians why people in cultures that do not believe in Christ or God can still be of good character through good works alone,..." But did not B-P not say that, "No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have religion."

This is very simple. When JJ asked what we would do, you said only the patrols involved should be a part of the process. You said the SM, SPL and other leaders should not be part of the process in making the decision. I pointed out that goes against the SM Handbook, which is used to train all youth leaders. Again, I will quote: "With the Scoutmaster's direction, the boys are formed into patrols, plan the troop's program and make it a reality." I don't see how there can be any confusion about this. According to the SM Handbook, who is to provide direction in forming patrols? The Scoutmaster. To say he should have no part in the decision making process goes 180 degrees against the SM Handbook.

If the troop has set up a group email system, then they have the authority to control it. I would think this would be controlled more by the CC than the SM, but I guess it could be handled by either. If you send an email out to addresses contained in your email address book, I don't see how they could say anything about that. That would be personal email. Our district uses a Yahoo group, and it is controlled by the District Commissioner. We have certain individuals who have wanted him to send out political, non-scouting information to the group, and he has (correctly) refused. fgoodwin - has your troop had problems with non-scouting emails being sent out over the group?(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Yeah, and when someone finds their position might be wrong, the first thing they do is claim they are being attacked. I asked pertinent questions to this discussion. You write: "ALL BSA literature has the adults coaching, supporting, never DIRECTING and never stepping in to correct." (emphasis added) First page in the chapter on the Boy-Led Troop, SM Handbook, pg. 12: "One of your most important challenges as Scoutmaster is to train boy leaders to run the troop by providing DIRECTION, coaching and support." Yes, the SM DOES DIRECT. Same page, under "Leaders of the Boy-Led Troop": "A Boy Scout troop is a small democracy. With the Scoutmaster's direction, the boys are formed into patrols, plan the troop's program and make it a reality." I think that is pretty clear.

"It sure doesn't seems to reemphasize boy-led where the only reference to such a practice comes from the adult handbook." Try the Boy Scout Handbook, pg. 18. I never said anything about putting 1st or 2nd year Scouts in a Venture Patrol. That patrol should only be older boys. I believe in boy-lead, as defined in the Scoutmaster Handbook. It doesn't sound like you put much weight in that book, since it is for the adults. Have you attended SM/ASM training? Does your district use the SM Handbook as part of the training curriculum? How do you conduct youth training in your Troop without the SM Handbook? From the Troop Leadership Training Guide: Module One - Introduction to Troop Leadership - conducted for youth leaders. 1. The Boy-Led Troop and Living the Scout Oath and Law - led by SM Discuss chapter 3 of the Scoutmaster Handbook, "The Boy-Led Troop." 2. Discussion of a Boy-Led Patrol - led by SPL Discuss Chapter 4 of the Scoutmaster Handbook, "The Boy-Led Patrol." This all comes right out of the Troop Leadership Training Guide, used for training all youth leaders in a Troop and patrols. The training information on how a boy-led troop and patrol should operate comes right out of the Scoutmaster Handbook. I don't see how you can say the SM Handbook is just an adult handbook. It is THE source on training the youth leaders on how boy-led should operate!

Stosh writes: "Ok, now once they are good pards and have been together since first grade tigers, we're going to break the group up and redistribute them into other patrols who are losing members to girls and cars. What a totally bogus dynamic!" Yes, that is what most troops around here do. Otherwise, you end up with Patrols all based on age, which can lead to competition problems. This method allows the younger Scouts to work with older boys in the other patrols, and see other styles of leadership. They learn how to work with others who haven't been their friend since 1st Grade. It also allows the troop to balance the patrols as boys leave. And yes, this method IS in the BSA literature - Scoutmaster Handbook, pg. 20

Kudu, I'd like to expand this conversation beyond your first post, and get back to my other question - defining what is "power" and what we mean when we say "boy-lead." These are the areas where I see a program can be either adult-lead or boy-lead: 1. Planning the annual calendar 2. Planning troop meetings 3. Planning campouts 4. Training the boys in Scout skills (not talking about merit badges) 5. Training the boys in leadership (JLT) 6. Signing off on rank advancements 7. Choosing youth leaders There may be more - please feel free to add to the list. I'm really interested in identifying these areas, and then comparing if they are boy-lead in the BSA vs. B-P's original plan. I see the BSA pushing boy-lead in 1, 2, 3, 4, 7. The PLC and Troop Guides would take care of these items. 5 & 6 are conducted by the SM or ASM. I see B-P's plan pushing boy-lead in 3 & 6. I see the SM conducting the training and choosing the youth leadership. I'm not sure about 1 & 2. The real differences I see are in who conducts the training and who signs off. BSA believes in the older boys doing the training, B-P states the adults do the training. BSA believes adults should sign off on rank requirements, B-P believes the Patrol leader should. Which is more boy-lead? I think that is up to individual conclusions. Feel free to expand this to other areas of difference. I'm much more interested in discussing this issue than arguing one side. Please correct any mistakes I may have made.

gwd, Keep these B-P quotes on an index card in your pocket. I find them to be very helpful reminders for me and the other leaders. They are found in the Scoutmaster Handbook, on page 20 & 70. When the parents ask those questions, pull out the card and show it to them. Tell them you agree with the founder of Scouting on how to run a troop. "The patrol method is not a way to operate a Boy Scout troop, it is the only way. Unless the patrol method is in operation, you don't really have a Boy Scout troop." "The object of the patrol method is not so much saving the Scoutmaster trouble as to give responsibility to the boy." "Training boy leaders to run their troop is the Scoutmaster's most important job." "Train Scouts to do a job, then let them do it." "Never do anything a boy can do." Robert Baden-Powell(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Do you attend the monthly roundtable meetings? >>Every month. Do you even know what they are? >>Yes. Does your roundtable staff conduct good meetings? >>Cubs, yes, Boy Scouts, not so sure. Are they worthwhile attending? >>Definitely. Our District used to offer Cub Leader training at the same time, just down the hall from RT. This exposed a lot of leaders to RT, in that they saw what it was and where it was. Attendance at training dropped off, so the training sessions stopped. Attendance at RT has since dropped. Most units think if they send one person to RT, they are covered. They are missing the whole point of RT. It is for leaders to come together to share ideas that worked, and those that didn't. For Cub leaders, it is a great source for new ideas. I'm afraid our Boy Scout side has grown stale - they offer sessions on topics that most Boy Scout leaders know by heart. Instead, I wish they would suggest holding discussions on topics like we see here - NSP vs. vertical integration, which boys make the best TG's, really successful camping trips, etc... One big benefit of RT on the Cub side is finding staff for Day Camp, Cuborees and Webelos Woods. It is extremely hard for a Camp Director to pull together a staff from only his unit; he needs to be able to identify strong, dependable leaders from other units. RT is a great way to start identifying them.

There are creative ways for getting the information you need. Get your District Training Coordinator to contact the person you want to nominate, and ask them for all training, awards, committees, etc. under the premise that they are updating the District records. Or have the DD or DE ask an entire group to submit their Scouting resumes, just like a Troop or Pack asks parents to fill out a skills/talent survey. Or just come straight out and ask for it. Our District Commissioner sends out the following email: "John Doe, Without asking any questions, can you send me a synopsis of your Scouting experience; positions held, events you coordinated, previous Scouting awards. Also, can you list any other experiences in guiding youth such as religious or sports related programs? Thanks for getting this to me and not asking any questions." Could this approach build up expectations that might not pan out? Yes. If that happens, and the nominee finds out he has been nominated but not selected, hopefully he will feel honored that he was nominated. If you are a district leader and you feel someone deserves an award, and the only reason s/he isn't getting it is due to lack of or a poor nomination, YOU owe it to them to get the problem resolved. A Scout helps other people at all times, including other leaders! If you see a wrong, don't just complain about it - correct it! Silver Beavers are awarded from the districts (1 per 25 units), through the council selection committee. They can only work with the nominations they receive. If you feel strongly about a Scouter, nominate them and encourage others to do so as well, or write letters in support of the candidate. The council will take all of that information into consideration. "What would happen if such adult recognitions just went away and we concentrated on the boys?" We wouldn't get the opportunity to stand and applaud those leaders who are really making a difference in the lives of our youth. Hearing the information about the recipients, whether the DAM or SB, is always inspiring to me. I come away with new respect for the organization and those leaders, after hearing how much time and effort they have invested in this thing we call Scouting.

I'm probably hijacking a thread again - if so, my apologies. Kudu, you talk about boy-lead and where the "power" is. I think we to define what exactly the "power" is you think the boys should have, but don't. Planning their calendar? Training the other boys? Passing off on achievements? Before answering, consider B-P's answer to the question about how many boys should make up a troop. "The numbers in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty-two. I suggest this number because IN TRAINING BOYS MYSELF I have found that sixteen was about as many as I could deal with - in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each. I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two." Looks to me like the SM is conducting the training, through Adult Association. Also, back to my other post - you stated the SM should chose the best candidate for leadership, instead of letting the boys elect their own. You argue this is just a popularity contest, but I would argue the SM appointing the PL takes "power" and boy-lead program out of Scouting.

SueM, If this kid is as bad as you say, and I was his SM, he would have been gone a long time ago. Sounds like this kid, if he gets his Eagle, is going to be giving Scouting a bad rap for years to come. I can hear his acquaintances now "How did that guy ever make Eagle?" Unfortunately, the next questions asked are usually what Troop is he from, and who was his SM?

In our District (Hightower Trail) we also have an award for units to award to exceptional leaders, called the Trailblazer Award. At first, a unit could only award one Trailblazer per year, but in recent years that number has increased to 3 per year. We don't award a knot, but we do give the recipient a small round pin, about the size of a nickel, that can be worn on the left pocket flap. This allows units to recognize their leaders that give great service to their unit, but may not be involved at the district or council levels. The only real problem we have is some units either aren't aware of the award, or just choose not to use it. As was mentioned earlier, the ones who may really deserve it are sometimes the only Scouters in the unit who know about it, so they are always nominating others. A good UC can usually straighten that out. Here is the nomination form for our Trail Blazer Award: http://hightowertrailbsa.com/Documents/Advancement/TrailblazerNominationForm.pdf