BrentAllen

Before discussing this any further, maybe we need to define the terms. ideal: an ultimate object or aim of endeavor: goal obligation: something that one is bound to do or forbear (as by law, conscience or social pressure) From B-P: "There is no religious side to the Movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realisation and service of God." "I have been asked to describe more fully what was in my mind as regards religion when I instituted Scouting and Guiding. I was asked: 'Where does religion come in?' Well, my reply is: 'It does not come in at all. It is already there. It is the fundamental factor underlying Scouting and Guiding." Finally, "There may be many difficulties relating to definition of the religious training in our Movement where so many different denominations exist, and the details of the expression of duty to God have, therefore, to be left largely in the hands of the local authority. But we insist on the observance and practice of whatever form of religion the boy professes." I don't know about y'all, but "insist on the observance" sounds like a requirement, or an obligation, instead of a goal or aim.

Brian, Even though I said I had my fill of you, I will try to help you out here. Respect Respect is a two-way street. If you want it, you have to give it. Coming on these boards and calling all of us who disagree with your ill-informed opinions "old timers" with our heads in the sand does not show respect. Making sophomoric remarks about one of the WB patrol names does not show respect. Failing to learn the WB song, and then complaining about it, does not show respect. Making derogatory remarks about WB symbols, which many of us hold very dear, such as the woggle, does not show respect. Wearing non-BSA pants to WB, no matter how comfortable, does not show respect! Do not expect us to respect your opinions and ideas when you show our program such little respect. WB is not mandatory. It is advanced adult leader training. It has nothing to do with the boys, in regard to the boys knowing anything about the patrol names, symbols, icons, etc... Whether a WB patrol name is a Bobwhite or a Gladiator, it will make not one bit of difference to a boy in deciding to either join or leave Scouting. The boys do not attend WB, and have only the slightest interaction, if any, with WB. I'm sorry you felt WB was a waste of your time - now stop wasting ours, arguing to change it. As for your ticket, if you spent even one minute conducting any research at all - right here on this very page - you could easily find the declining numbers have been discussed in the most minute details. You would find the numbers have been dropping since 2000, when the US Supreme Court upheld the BSA's right to free association. Groups supporting gays and atheists have been attacking the BSA ever since. That policy has cost the BSA some membership. The sad thing to me is your apparent lack of any research at all on this ticket item. The sad thing is many of us here participated in those discussions on membership numbers, numbers going back to the 50's, and you show up with one year's numbers and want to change the world! We know what the numbers are, we know they are posted on this site, and you haven't even bothered to find them - and we called "old timers" because we know how little you have studied the subject and we disagree with your assumptions. I have pointed out how the one group that most represents your vision of Scouting - polo shirts for uniforms, no "old" icons or symbols, no goofy patrol names, no outdated merit badges - Venturing - has dropped by a higher percentage than any other area. How do you explain that? Are you going to ignore this question again? You show all the traits of a bad researcher. You are only looking for the evidence that supports your predetermined conclusions. Any evidence to the contrary you dismiss as coming from an "old timer" who is out of touch with the boys, and has his head in the sand. I don't know whether you are in touch with your Scouts or not, but I do know you know nothing about my unit and the reasons for our success.

FB, I guess in my book, when the director uses an image of a newspaper with a fabricated headline - one that never appeared on that paper - to build his case in a documentary, either you have to say he is lying, or the film isn't a documentary - it is fiction. Just one example. I didn't know I was supposed to be defending any icons. Did I miss a memo?

Yes, Fuzzy. All us Republicans want to pollute the world! We want dirty water and air for our kids and families! We want all wildlife to die! We want all the trees gone! Only MM was able to save the world from us evil Republicans! MM is far from what I consider trustworthy and honest. His Columbine movie was full of lies, inaccuracies and twisted material, and somehow won an Oscar as a documentary - what a joke! Exemplary citizen, Distinguished Eagle Scout? Not in my book.

Beavah, If I had my way, I would probably do away with Tigers - first grade is too early, IMHO. My son didn't start until Wolf. I sure don't want any earlier than that. I've had my fill of brianbuf. I visited the other forums where he posted. Pretty eye-opening. He tells us he is retired, but on other forums states :"My employees said today "My Ipod with a dead battery is more exciting than scouting ever was." and "After 6 days away from my family, my several companies,..." Maybe he just has a different definition of being retired? Then he told us he his CO basically required him to attend WB, but on another forum he says "I was not forced to go to Woodbadge, but told every boy deserves a trained leader." He wears non-BSA cargo pants to WB and then can't understand why the "oldtimers", as he refers to them (staff, I'm guessing) get upset that he isn't in full uniform. He complains about WB being full of old stuff boys don't like, but doesn't explain how this affects the boys, since it is adult training. Do the boys attend WB in anyone else's councils? He keeps going on and on about the uniform being the cause of the drop in Scouting, and how Venturing is down over 10% in one year. When it is pointed out that Venture crews chose a uniform, and most chose a polo (his answer to a new uniform, btw), and that they don't have totems or "out of date" slogans, that the badges are all career and sports related, he doesn't have an answer as to why Venturing is down more than any other segment of Scouting. Venturing has the changes he wants, but it is down the largest percentage! His only answer is boys have already "mentally" checked out of Scouting before they get to Venturing. How does that add up to Venturing dropping more than any other segment? That percentage decline shows members who were already in Venturing but didn't return, not those who are approaching the age to enter Venturing. The Venturing program should be keeping them in, according to brian's theory, instead of driving them away, more than any other segment of Scouting. It just doesn't add up. His 4th Ticket item was to "post my personal thoughts about how to modernize Scouting." His 5th Ticket item was to "promote my website nationally through forums and letters to the leadership." I hate to ask what his other 3 items were. I wonder how these two ticket items are SMART and relate to his vision for his current position in his unit. Yes, Brian, I know they were approved. You posted them on a forum, so don't tell me I can't comment on them. My guess is my post will be viewed as an attack, though it is not meant to be. If so, I will go ahead and apologize now. I feel like I'm in Denmark, and the cheese is fine.

Trevorum, I don't think you know what the Stars & Bars flag is. Google it. It is not what most people call the "Confederate" flag. The current Georgia flag is identical to the real Stars & Bars flag, with the addition of the State Seal on the canton. It was most assuredly voted on by a majority of our state. brianbuf's website and posts here complaign the program doesn't offer what kids want, and that we adults run a program based on our desires, not theirs. Please explain to me how WB patrol names have anything to do with the boys. WB is adult leader training, so how will changing those names affect any boys?? That suggestion, and others, just don't make any sense. BTW, the swastika was a religious Hindu symbol before it ever became associated with the Scouts. Rudyard Kipling used it to sign his books as well. Too bad it had to be ruined.

Holy cow, Beavah. I had no idea we had so little in common on this subject. My suggestion would be do the opposite of everything you just said, except for: "Drop restrictions based on anti-gun philosophy; keep only real safety guidelines." and maybe "Sell the entire LFL division to McGraw-Hill or some other publisher, or spin it off. Get back to the core business." Keep your hands of our DE's. They are a huge reason we had such a fantastic recruiting season. Pay volunteers? Are you kidding? Sure, you will get plenty of leaders - plenty of the wrong kind, just out looking for a paycheck. We need passionate leaders, not part-time jobbers. Close Scout Shops? Tiger parents can't hardly figure out what to buy with the staff holding their hands. When was the last time you purchased $500 worth of awards for a B&G? Do you want to rely on a part-picker in a warehouse to get your order right? Did you ever get it right the first time? Ever make any last minute trips to the shop so Johnny can get the award he just finished a day before B&G? I think the Timeless Values are extremely important. I much prefer them to the Value of the Moment - which these days would be Me, Me, Me.

Kudu, It appears to me that straight-forward statements from B-P give a clear explanation of his thoughts on religion in Scouting. From your own webpage: "It must be remembered that we have in our Movement boys of almost every religious belief, and it is, therefore, impossible to lay down definite rules for guidance in religious teaching. The following is the attitude of the Scout Movement as regards religion approved by the heads of all the different denominations on our Council: (a) It is expected that every Scout shall belong to some religious denomination, and attend its services. (b) Where a Troop is composed of members of one particular form of religion, it is hoped that the Scoutmaster will arrange such denominational religious observances and instruction as he, in consultation with its Chaplain or other religious authority may consider best. © Where a Troop consists of Scouts of various religions they should be encouraged to attend the service of their own denomination, and in camp, any form of daily prayer and of weekly Divine service should be of the simplest character, attendance being voluntary." (I don't see anything about atheists) On the other hand, you and Jeal have to take the most convoluted route to arrive at your conclusions. All of the information in your previous post may be true - Practical Christianity and the Religion of the Backwoods. However, what he wrote in his book on the subject of teaching boys to be Scouts is pretty clear. Do you think B-P expected the boys to dig around to arrive at your conclusion, or to read Scouting For Boys and learn that "No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every scout should have a religion."? The answer is as plain as the nose on my face. Now, if you want to open the "You can find passages to back up just about anything" can of worms, then we can have a lot of fun with your other ideas, say, about WB, for example.

Hey brian, saying I don't think you have a clue is an opinion, not an attack. Check this photo and see if you see an similarities between the BSA uniform and the Marines. Sure, there isn't a neckerchief (which is optional) but the colors are close to the same, they wear their awards in a similar manner (except for hanging them from a button, which is, again, optional). They even wear cords around their shoulder, just like we do. http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/06/NTT/dsc_0282.htm I didn't realize the bobwhite was only discovered since 1910. I guess I learn something new every day. BTW, who says the boys in your Troop have to chose to be the Bobwhite Patrol? The program is working fine for us - not just our unit, but our district and our council. Our summer camps are full, we have waiting lists for high adventure trips - excuse me if I don't agree with you that the program needs a major overhaul. Our next Pack meeting is next Tuesday, where we have Steve "The SnakeMaster" Scruggs coming in with all his snakes. Some of the boys will get to hold the non-venomous snakes. He brings out timber rattlers, western diamondbacks and easter diamondbacks. He opens their mouths and shows the size of the fangs. All the while, he is teaching safety, first aid, and leave no trace. This is a repeat performance from last year - the boys have been asking me all summer when his coming. In November, we are having the only Georgian to ever compete and complete the Iditarod come make a presentation. He brings his sled, equipment and 3 dogs for the boys to see, along with PowerPoint and footage of his race. Afterwards, he sets up a race course in the gym. Each den has a clothes basket for a sled, which the Den Leader rides in. The boys in the den pull the sled by rope, and race each other around the course. Do you think boys will be interested in these programs? Are the subjects relevant to today's boys? Will they consider them fun? Do you think they will tell their friends about them? Simple rules for Scouting: KISMIF - Keep it simple. Make it fun. Make it exciting. Instill a sense of adventure in the boys. These things work. Changing the uniform to be "modern" won't make a difference. Changing Akela to Buzz Lightyear won't make a difference. I'm not going to start a web page advocating change because I don't see a need for it.

Pardon me, but I don't think brian has a clue what he is talking about. I don't know what his real goal is here, but if he wants to save a Scouting organization that is failing, he should look north to Scouts Canada. I'm curious what icons, characters or other materials B-P used which were based on his time, and are outdated today - the ones that are causing Scouts to drop in droves? Is it Akela? Akela and The Jungle Book are used in Cub Scouts, not Boy Scouts or Venturing. A modern version of The Jungle Book was made not too long ago - doesn't that make it modern? Our current uniform looks very similar to the Marines, just as B-P's original uniform was similar to their military uniform. So, what other icons are outdated? Patrol names? This I want to hear. Were the animals B-P chose for Patrol names just discovered in 1907, or were they around for thousands of years, like the Bear, the Wolf and the Bobcat? Yes, ask the boys what they want today, and it will be sitting in front of the tv playing X-Box, or computer games. Are you going to build a Scouting program around those two activities? Might as well start asking the kids in school what subjects they want to study, and if they want to do homework! How is a boy going to know if he likes caving or canoeing or rock climbing unless he gets out and tries it? Nearly every Pack in our District had a great recruiting season - we are up 35% to 125 boys, the largest we have ever been. Most other Packs are up at least 20 - 25%. Please explain how your theory of outdated icons is causing drops elsewhere, but not here. We are using the same uniforms, the same books as everyone else. You know what the favorite Den game is of my son's Den - the one they always request? It is a game my Scoutmaster invented over 30 years ago, which he named Chinese Bowling. The Den divides into 2 teams, each lined up facing each other, about 10 - 12' apart. Each boy stands over a bowling pin. Gym balls are placed in the center, between the two teams. At the whistle, they run out and grab the balls, and return to their pin. The goal is to throw the balls underhanded and knock down the other team's pins, while protecting your own. Balls can only be thrown while standing over your pin. They love this game, just as we did when I was his age. I guess we shouldn't be playing it, since it is so old. I guess we shouldn't be playing baseball, since that game is so old as well - older than Scouting. Same thing with football, soccer and basketball. Gee, that doesn't leave a whole lot - what new, modern games are out their? Arena football? Laser tag? Paintball? Grand Theft Auto on X-Box? Philmont is getting pretty old - should we toss it? I'm glad he ins't a leader in my son's unit.

The Troop I was in as a youth limited membership, and kept a waiting list. 40 boys, 5 patrols. They decided that was the largest number they could handle, given the meeting space, equipment, etc... Limiting membership and keeping a waiting list puts a little more value on membership. If a Scout misses 3 meetings or so with no explanation or communication, he is told someone else who wants to participate is ready to take his spot. Hey, we are all volunteers. As soon as it stops being fun, your volunteers will start to fade away. Do what you have to do in order to continue offering a quality program. Congratulations on your success!

Kudu, You have let us know your desire to carry out Scouting as B-P originally designed. OK, let's take a look at B-P's thoughts on religion. From Scouting For Boys, 1908 Edition, by Robert Baden-Powell Part IV, Self-Improvement Duty To God "Religion is a very simple thing: 1st. To believe in God 2nd. To do good to other people ... No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws (hmmmm, what does that sound like?). So every scout should have a religion. There are many kinds of religion such as Roman Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Mohammedans, and so on, but the main point about them is that the all worship God, although in different ways. They are like an army which serves one king, though it is divided into different branches, such as cavalry, artillery, and infantry, and these wear different uniforms. So, when you meet a boy of a different religion from your own, you should not be hostile to him, but recognise that he is like a soldier in your own army, though in a different uniform, and still serving the same king as you." Sounds to me like B-P felt religion was an obligation, and that religion was required to be a good man. Are you saying B-P was wrong? What about the original Scout Oath? "On my honour I promise that- 1. I will do my duty to God and the King 2. I will do my best to help others, whatever it costs me. 3. I know the scout law, and will obey it. Scout's Salute The three fingers held up (like the three points of the scout's badge) remind him of his three promises in the scout's oath. 1. Honour God and the King. 2. Help others. 3. Obey the Scout Law." Again, it looks like B-P felt pretty strongly about serving God, as part of Scouting. Do you disagree?

Don't know about the rest of you, but I did receive one bead upon completion of the week-long part of my WB course (92-47, AAC, summer of 2004, Camp Woodruff). I wore it hanging from my right shirt pocket, as instructed, until I completed my ticket. I have my February, 1973 edition of the Scout Handbook, from my youth. Sorry, but I just don't see where the "out" was taken out of Scouting. Somebody sure forgot to tell our Troop! The very first words in the book are as follows: You In Scouting Your tent glows for a moment in a flash of lightening. You hear the patter of rain and the far-off rumble of thunder. The fury of the storm is over. It was rough for awhile, but your tent is still up. Your blankets are dry. You sleep. You wake up to a bright sun warming your tent. The smell of breakfast drifts in. You look out the front and quickly wake your buddy to see a deer drinking at the pond. The others in your patrol are already up. They are by the fire kidding the cooks. These are your best friends. You want to do things with them. And you do, because they are in your Scout patrol. Hardly sounds anti-outdoors to me, but maybe I am missing something. Kudu writes "Do you know of any other country in the world that has traded the Wood Badge outdoor skills for The One Minute Manager?" A lot of countries have combined Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts, which I believe B-P was against. Do you hold them in similar disdain for changing B-P's original program? My WB course included some of the instruction from the first course - patrol method, rotating patrol leadership, camping, cooking, etc... Details from the very first Wood Badge Course: The men were organized into three patrols, each one taking his turn as patrol leader, "second," "bottom" and the other turns in the order of patrol jobs, including cooking. Although in some camp schemes a late lunch was the big meal of the day, Gidney scheduled the main meal in the evening, to insure no one missed any of the Scoutcraft instruction. The program of the first course was summarized by Gidney: Syllabus of Work Troop Organisation. - Patrols formed - Practiced calls, etc. - Drill with staves - Troop formation - Patrol formation on the march (by day and night) -- Scouts' pace --Typical investiture - "Erogonyama" chorus -- -How to "break" the flag -- Camp hygiene -- physical exercises (the six from "Scouting for Boys"). Campcraft -- (a) Campsites. Selection -- Sanitation -- Fires -- Pitching and Striking camps (b) Camp expedients. Illuminations Kitchen Implements -- Beds and sleeping appliances -- Personal comforts -- Camp tidiness Tent expedients -- Miscellaneous. Pioneering. -- (a) Axmanship - Felling Use of crosscut saw, wedges, grindstone -- Use care of knife. (b) Construction.Rope and trestle bridge building across water -- Simple and swinging derrick -- Use of tackle. Woodcraft. - (a) Birds and animals. -- Those found in the locality, their habits and uses -- Use of Nature notebook. (b) Trees, - How to identify them near to and far off during four seasons -- How to get the Scout keen on the subject. Signcraft. (a) Signaling Hand Whistle -- Smoke - How to teach Semaphore and Morse Pitfalls to avoid. (b) Nature trails. © Sand tracking (carried out by the Chief Scout). Games. -- (a) Scouting.Description and actual playing of each type. (b) Camp. - Played for one hour each day. Fieldwork. -- (a) Measurements.Personal Distances -- Heights Areas River Widths. (b) Mapping. How to read making sketch maps. Prismatic compass Panoramic drawing Reports. Study Circle Work. - (a) "Aids to Scoutmastership," (b) Headquarters "Book of Rules." © "Rules for Rover Scouts and Wolf Cubs," (d) "Our Aims, Methods and Needs." (e) "Sunday and the Scout." Pathfinding. - Patrols sent out separately with sealed orders to from various points across Epping Forest, for eight-hour stretch - Leaf collecting - Report of journey - Sketch map of trek - Panoramic drawing from given point, Kudu - is it your suggestion that Wood Badge teach all of the above?

My personal opinion is the numbers dropped last year due to councils and districts cleaning up their rolls, after the membership number problems. If I'm wrong, we will know in April, I think, when the next year's numbers are published.

Interesting points, Barry. Our Pack is just about the opposite of what you mentioned. We have only a handful of women as either Den or Assistant Den Leaders. This is not intentional, and I'm not sure how or why we have ended up this way. The only downside I see to the women Den Leaders is some just don't go camping. When the DL doesn't attend, many boys in the Den won't attend, either. Other than that, they are great DL's. Regardless, what we have is working.

He asked for opinions, eh, Beavah? Feedback is a gift, eh? Boys have probably been embarrassed to wear their Boy Scout uniform to school since the 60's. I certainly was in the late 70's. This is not a new phenomenon, and this is not causing any one-year drop in membership numbers. See "Cleaning the Rolls" for a more plausible explanation. In Cubs, it was fine to wear their new uniform to school, but not in middle or high school. So what? I'll wager you aren't going to come up with ANY new Boy Scout uniform that boys will want to wear to middle or high school. So why waste your time? My son really likes his martial arts uniform, but he would never wear it to school. It would be out of place at school, just as the Boy Scout uniform would be. It isn't the uniform. Go into a high school assembly and ask all the boys in Boy Scouts to stand up. Even some of the boys who absolutely love Scouting won't do it. I don't really see a problem with that. As long as they participate in Scouts and live by the Oath and Law, I don't see a need to make them publicly broadcast their membership. It is not just in this country, either. Scoutmasters in South Africa told me they had boys who would rather be dead than let some of their schoolmates know they were in Scouts. Again, they loved the program, loved the campouts, etc... but felt others would consider them geeks or something. If you feel compelled to change anything, focus on changing the public, not our program. "Cool" is fickle. "Cool" does not live by a code. "Cool" is often simply a display of wealth. "Cool" is a valueless, moving target, whereas the Oath and Law are rock solid. Scouting does not have to be "cool" - it just has to be fun and exciting. Yes, being "cool" is a real sore spot with me. We've had some boys in our Pack teased pretty badly because they weren't in the "cool" crowd. The "cool" boys are such bad apples, I don't think I would let them in my house to clean my toilets.

Brian, It is shame you spent so much time singing the Gilwell song, but didn't learn it correctly. FYI, it isn't "working on my ticket as I can" - it is "going to work my ticket if I can" Yes, the neckerchief is very traditional, especially world-wide. The Scout Council Headquarters in Cape Town, South Africa has a great collection of neckerchiefs from all over the world. They also have a nice collection of authentic Baden-Powell books, letters, heirlooms, etc... BTW, one of my ticket items was putting together a presentation on International Scouting, focusing on South Africa. Their Cub program also follows Akela and The Jungle Book, but their ranks are Cheetahs, Leopards and Lions. If you don't like turks head woggles, what are you going to do with your leather one? What next - do you want to get rid of the tartan as well? Where did you take your Wood Badge course? I don't recognize some of the songs you mentioned, I'm curious what part of the country you are in.

Buster Brown used to sell Scout shoes! I wonder if Fruit of the Loom ever offered Scout underwear? If so, did they have NEA underwear that only Eagles could buy? :-)

Brian, Methinks you have missed a huge part of Scouting. Scouting is not about being "cool" or judging who is cool and who isn't. In fact, that is one of the big battles we are fighting in the schools today. For 5th graders and up, being smart is not cool. Smart kids are geeks and nerds. "Cool" kids don't hang out with the nerds and geeks; in fact, they pick on and tease them. The day Scouts starts competing in the "cool" game will be the day Scouts has died. Did they add another point to the Scout Law - A Scout is Cool? The Law and Oath teach a boy what a Scout should be - it does not teach a boy that being "cool" is more important than being trustworthy, loyal,... My unit is up 35% this year. We went from 92 to 125 boys. We wear the full uniform. We went on a hike at Kennesaw Mountain Saturday, where 90% of the boys wore their full uniform. They are proud of it and enjoy wearing it. Other units in my district have had great recruiting seasons. Most are up over 20%. Why are we having such good results? We have a great DD and DE and they have worked the schools hard on School Night for Scouting. Organization. Execution. Enthusiasm. Are you going to change the awards/levels every time a new movie or fad comes out? Toy Story sure was popular for a while, but has seen it's day. The Braves, Dodgers, Giants, Mets, Red Sox, etc... have been around for a long, long time. According to your theory, they should have needed to change their mascots/names years ago. Not so. Some boys enjoy seeing pictures of their dads in their uniforms from when they were kids, and enjoy earning the same badges. Are you going to do away with the Eagle award? It sure is old!! If the uniforms are too expensive, buy used ones on ebay. The program does not need to change. The program can be as exciting or as boring as the adult leaders choose to make it. Offer an exciting program, and the boys will show up. Keep it simple, make it fun.

eagle-pete, We had to have all our prerequisite training courses (Fast Start, NLE, LS) completed before we could register for WB. It has been a couple of years now, so I can't remember if we actually had to show the Training cards or not. I thought the prerequisites were standard across the councils.

Owl62, In that kind of hiking, I would suggest tall gaiters. I don't know what part of the country you live in, but here in the hot, humid south, supplex nylon works pretty well. It breathes, wickes moisture away, and as you mentioned, dries quickly. We teach "leave the cotton at home" for any kind of hiking, especially in winter. Once it gets wet - from rain, streams or persperation - it takes forever to dry, is heavy, and can sap your heat pretty quickly (hypothermia). The US military has pretty much banned synthetic clothing from the battlefield in Iraq. The heat and blast from IED explosions was melting the material into the skin and wounds, giving the doctors a lot of extra work in treating the soldiers. I don't think our Scouts have much to worry about with them - they've been pretty well field tested by lots of hikers and campers.

Why require the father to attend for a week-long camp, and not a specialist hired to fill in? I suspect the answer might be found in the following quote from the article: 'When his dad was present, his behavior changed very noticeably,' said Troop 223 Scoutmaster Mike Lanning. Unfortunately, that is all we have, but I assume that is the heart of the issue.

So Beavah, if someone else registered the names "Beavah." or "Beeavah" or "beavah" and started writing posts to stir up trouble, trying to confuse everyone that he was you - how would you feel about that? Would it be fun spending all your time trying to make everyone understand who was who? Not a good comparision? Well think about this. Do you tell everyone that your son is "in the Boy Scouts of America" or do you tell everyone your son is "in Scouts." If another organization comes along, no matter what they call it, they could simply tell everyone they are the Scouts. It may say something different on the charter, but in common usage, they could just use the term "Scouts" to try to confuse the unknowing. They want to get into a school to recruit, they are just going to tell the principal they are leaders with the Scouts. They want to use a storefront for a fundraiser, they are going to tell the owners they are the Scouts. Maybe the new group runs a good operation, or maybe they don't. Bottom line is, if they are allowed to use the term "Scouts" they are going to be riding on the coattails and good will of the BSA. And any damage the new group does to the term "Scouts" (say, from running a bad program) will harm the BSA as well. The BSA will have no control over how the new Scout group would operate or act. We assume they would follow most of the program we have, but they would be under no requirement to do so. They might have a Cow Tipping merit badge or a Graffiti Painting merit badge. It sounds ridiculous, but it is possible. A group wanting to damage the BSA could cause a lot of trouble if they were allowed to start a program with the Scout name. As Hunt mentioned, identity theft does not just apply to individuals. Sleazy fund-raisers do it all the time. If things go sour with the new Scouts (maybe they trash your favorite campground, resulting in "Scouts" being banned), would you want to spend a lot of time explaining to those in your community which Scout group you are with? How the two groups are different? Why the campground owner should trust you that your Scouts would never act that way? A lot of Scouters here finish their posts with "I love this Scouting stuff!" A simple statement. We all know what they are talking about. Add in another "Scout" organization and the whole world of Scouting as we know it might change dramatically. All that we are comfortable with will then have to be clarified and explained, over and over again. I see the BSA protecting the program they built here in this country as a wise and prudent move. I see nothing dishonorable about it.

Being the first leader in our Pack to attend WB, I wanted to make a strong statement about the value of the training. I offered a 50% scholarship to any of the other leaders to attend. This was not Pack money, this was out of my wallet. I am not rich by any stretch, but I wanted to show how much this training meant to me, personally. I've had one leader take me up on it. He was going through a divorce, so the money was tight. I don't think he would have been able to attend otherwise. Yes, there are usually camperships available to those with funding problems. This act was more a statement about the value of the course than as actual financial aid. In the end, it turned out to be both.

Not vertical, but just caving - try Cumberland Caverns. Very commercial, "sleep" in a big hall (about like trying to sleep on the Yorktown - take ear plugs!). Cumberland is a little dryer than Raccoon Mtn., with larger rooms. At Raccoon, you are going to get wet and muddy (just what the boys want!). As for sleeping, everyone is much more spread out, but it can be difficult to find a decent sized flat spot. As a youth, we used to go to Tumbling Rock in Alabama. Camped in the cow pasture outside. I don't know if they still allow people in - it was on private property. Very cool cave. Provide your own guides.