BrentAllen

Well, I do have a couple of M14's in the gun safe, but neither are named "Charlene." Was there a more homorous connection there that I'm missing? Maybe some quote that relates to this thread? No, I'm not a big fan of jelly donuts.

At the risk of being cruel and evil...(sorry, I just can't resist) :-) "On a different note, we have the thread on Camp Skits open, so far I have posted 3 skits..." "And as you can tell, I am quite affronted by being told I have no sense of humor and need to take myself less seriously. It's ok, I will get over it..." Why am I picturing Lt. Steven Hauk, from Good Morning Vietnam? Lt. Steven Hauk: "Sir, in my heart, I know I'm funny."

Beavah, Try as I might to give your posts a Minnesooooooota accent when reading them, my mind keeps pulling up Mr. Crabs, from SpongeBob. :-) I'll keep trying. "If it were important, we'd all be given one for free, eh?" Now, we are getting somewhere! The only important things in the BSA program are the ones we are given for free. OK, let me think.... what have I been given for free? Hmmmmm.... (scratching head) . Hmmmmm......(rubbing chin) . Hmmmmmm......(tappping temple) . The only thing I can think of that I was given for free was the Scout Shop catalog - is that the only thing that is important!?!? "Yah, the BSA doesn't care, eh? They don't spend a second of time or a cent of money worryin' about it." I've already pointed out the resources the BSA provides on proper uniforming. Open the front cover of the BSA handbook, and what do you see - first thing? How about the back cover? Let me turn the argument around. A boy wants to join Scouts. He goes to a troop meeting and fills out the paperwork. He heads off to the Scout Shop to buy his uniform. The staff gets him everything he needs - shirt, pants, socks, belt, hat, handbook, neckerchief (if troop wears one), patches, loops. They show him in the handbook the sections on how and where to wear it. The boy maybe sees mannequins dressed properly, or posters around the shop. He heads home and reads his book, and shows up at the next meeting, dressed completely and correctly. He looks around and sees boys wearing shirts, but jeans or khakis, some are wearing blue loops, some don't have any patches on at all. So, wear does he learn incorrect uniforming - from National or from his troop? National does care about correct uniforming, and provides the materials to support it (as they do for every other aspect of the program). It is the local troops that go out of their way to ignore it. Where do these troops get the idea, or see examples, of other uniforming as acceptable? Now, your new Scout is working on his Tenderfoot. He repeats the Scout Law from memory. "A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Happy, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent." You say, "I think you missed one - it is Cheerful, not Happy." New Scout: "I like Happy better. Nobody says cheerful anymore." SM Mr. Crabs: "But the Law doesn't include Happy, the correct word is Cheerful." New Scout: "Come on, Mr. Crabs, is it really that important? I like Happy. Besides, if it was really important, they would have given me my handbook for free!" New (different) Scout gets home with his new uniform and a handful of patches (unit number, council strip, the usual) and calls you on the phone and asks where do they all go? What do you tell him - "oh, just put them anywhere you like, whatever looks good." Or do you tell him to look inside the cover of his handbook for instructions, which are taken from the Insignia Guide? Curious to know your answer.

Mr. Allen is my dad. No harm, brother.

"Or yeh could give up on all that silliness and do things da way it's supposed to be done." Kinda like wearing the proper uniform, eh, there, Beavah? :-) There is a pretty good article on New Scout Patrols in Scouting magazine, in the May-June 2004 issue. It can be found at http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0405/a-year.html A follow up article on this group just appeared in the January-February 2007 issue, pg. 4. You can decide for yourself if it is worth it. I have mixed feelings about the plan. I think the positives outweigh the negatives, and the boys will be in their new permanent patrols soon enough. The troops around here talk a 6 -9 month time period for the New Scout Patrol.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

LH, This may sound contradictory, and maybe it is, but my posts were directed at Beavah and others who claim the BSA doesn't care about uniforming - not at your troop. No, the BSA doesn't come around conducting uniform inspections, with reports going to National. They do suggest UC's perform annual inspections, and provide inspection score sheets (Beavah - why would they do produce those??) Yes, I'm one of those hard-core uniform Scouters. Some might even lump me in with the Uniform Police. While I cringe when I see bad uniforming, I keep my comments to myself and only try to lead by example. Heading off on a small tangent, I have heard troop leaders proudly claim, "Johnny may be late to a meeting, coming in from a soccer practice, but he throws his Scout shirt on so he can be in uniform." I look at that situation totally opposite. If the boy can't be in his complete uniform, then don't wear any of it. Come to the meeting, but either wear the full uniform, or none of it. Why this opinion, you may ask? Because other boys might see Johnny wearing only his shirt, and not realize he just came from practice. They see him and think it is A-OK to dress that way. Next thing you know, over half the troop is wearing only the uniform shirt. I'm sure most have heard this before, but if your son showed up for his football, basketball or baseball game wearing only the shirt, he probably wouldn't get to play. Parents wouldn't take them to the game dressed that way, so why is Scouts different? As for wearing the wrong shirts, I would cringe and think it is wrong, but I'm not going to walk up to your troop at summer camp and voice my opinion. If some of my Scouts were to ask me about it, I would give my opinion and let them know we need to worry about ourselves, and try to lead by example. You wrote "In the mid 70s National changed from an outdoor program and went to an urban approach. The Boy Scout Handbook showed a picture of a scout talking to a policeman and the script read something like When you are lost ask for directions. This was the total content for finding your way, no compass no map should all of us have just chucked our Silvas?" Come on, now LH, a Scout tells the truth! I have my original Eighth Edition, Second Printing Boy Scout Handbook, February, 1973. Yes, under "Town and City Hikes" for the Hiking belt loop, there is the picture and dialogue you mentioned (pg. 195). However, pages 204 - 212 are all about using a compass and a map, measuring distance and following a course. It even has the magentic declination chart for each state, and covers topograhpy. Did those pages fall out of your handbook? :-)

Sorry, John, but that argument just doesn't hold water. Training for adult volunteers is not required. There is no mandatorty training to be a CM, SM or Merit Badge counselor. There is no enforcement to make sure a Troop is following and using the Aims and Methods. It is ALL operated on VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE. I listed all the resources National has put into promoting the complete correct uniform. They even publish a distinct, separate Insignia Guide! Chapter One of the Boy Scout Handbook has a complete description of the correct uniform. This stuff isn't hidden in some hard to find booklet! Uniform Inspection sheets are very detailed. The Scoutmaster Handbook lists "hold uniform inspections" as part of the opening ceremony in the Troop Meeting Plans, right after singing the national anthem. Let's see - is the Scoutmaster Handbook a necessary resource for running a troop, or just some extra paperwork National tries to sell us? Is the material they include in there important? If so, would uniform inspections be important, or are we supposed to know we should just ignore that? If we are supposed to ignore it, please let me know which other sections aren't important either, so I won't waste my time on them.

My post was about Beavah's response to a BOY SCOUT TROOP wearing a Venturing uniform as their Troop uniform. "A rule which does not have enforcement resources behind it is a paper tiger. It's CYA, IMNSHO." OK, please tell me which rules DO have enforcement resources behind it. If I take Scouts to lazer tag, who is going to bust me? Or if I violate any other rules in G2SS? What if we advance Scouts who haven't met all the requirements? A Webelos Den Leader takes his Den whitewater rafting - where is the enforcement to stop him? Looks like lots of "paper tigers" to me. Or, on the other hand, we agree to run the program as outlined. Hmmmm. Let me think about that one for awhile, tough decision....

Beavah, I know this was all back before Christmas, but Dude, what were you smoking? The Insignia Guide clearly states, as part of the Rules and Regulations of the BSA, in Clause 4. Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation: a) No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local council or any local executive board or committee, except the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America after consideration by the Program Group Committee. Under Official Policy, Personal commitment: The uniform is a constant reminder to all Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Venturers, and adults of their commitment to the ideals and purpose of the Boy Scouts of America. The uniform encourages them to take Scouting seriously because of the investment in uniforms by parents of youths and by adults. The uniform is a way of making visible members' commitment to belief in God, loyalty to country, and helping others at all times The leaders of Scouting - both volunteer and professional - promote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions. If you go to the Scout Shop to purchase a uniform, they will tell you the proper way to wear it. If you open your son's Boy Scout Handbook, it will describe the proper way to wear the uniform. If you open a Scout Shop catalog, you will see pictures and read instructions of how to wear the complete, correct uniform. If you visit the ScoutStuff web page, you will see pictures of how to wear the complete correct uniform. Everywhere you look, you see instructions about how to wear the complete correct uniform. So, please don't tell me that Irving doesn't care about the uniform! Uniforming is a method, just like Advancement is a method. Should we ignore the Rules and Regulations for Advancement, to keep boys in Scouting? I've always like those flowery hawaiian shirts - maybe we can adopt those as our Troop uniform. I think the boys will really like them! Adopt Maui Jim sunglasses as official wear, so we can be really cool!

"...give me an outdoor Uniform that screams "HIGH ADVENTURE"!" For a Camping uniform, I agree 100%! FYI, the Wood Badge courses at our Council are all conducted outdoors - not a single session is conducted inside a building. We camp, we meet under pavillions, and we cook and eat under dining flies. Not sure how you could get much more "outdoors" unless you were building shelters ala Wilderness Survival, or backpacking along the AT. How about youth leaders wearing their bars on the backs of their caps? You know, they lead from the front, so their positions of leadership need to be where they can be seen by the rest of their group.

I can't believe the lack of safety I'm reading here! The "Troop of No Pranks Program Guide" clearly states that if a "child" needs to go to the latrine during the night, he must call out loudly until 2 adults (YP) arrive to escort him. Once they make sure he has on a jacket and shoes and any other proper clothing, they escort him to the latrine, walking on either side of him with bright flashlights illuminating the ground, making sure he doesn't trip. At the latrine, one of the adults takes a stick and rattles it around the hole to make sure there aren't any creepy-crawlies close by, while the other adult stands at the door with the "child" so he doesn't get scared of being alone in the dark. The adult then runs off the proper amount of toilet paper and hands it to the "child" as he enters the latrine. Both adults wait outside, singing "Camptown Races", while the "child" takes care of business, so that he doesn't think they left him, and get scared. Once the "child" has completed his business, he is escorted by the adults to the handwashing station, and watched closely by both adults to make sure he uses enough soap, and that he dries his hands - you don't want him to catch cold! After escorting him back to his tent, the adults make sure he gets back into his sleeping bag and gets it zipped up properly. The adults zip up his tent nice and tight so no bugs can enter. The adults sit outside the tent and softly sing "Kumbaya" until the "child" falls asleep. He might get scared and have nightmares, otherwise. Once asleep, the adults can return to their post of watching over camp, until their 2 hour shift is up and the next two adults relieve them.

Yes, I'm blowing our District's horn. We had our District Golden Eagle breakfast two weeks ago. We only had 195 people (vs. 320) and we had Jeff Foxworthy (vs. Oliver North) and we raised $212,000 (vs. $160,000) in one morning. Not only did Jeff fly in from LA late the night before (arriving at 2:00 am) and returned to LA right after the breakfast, but he also donated $5,000 personally! Jeff grew up in Scouting, but has no sons (two daughters). He was outstanding! His message about a Scoutmaster investing in him some 30 odd years ago, keeping him from taking the wrong path in life, was a great reminder about our mission. This was not a $ per plate breakfast, but a fundraiser where the invitees knew we were looking for a serious contribution. Our goal was $175,000. Last year, our goal was $100,000 and we raised around $114,000. As you can see, we nearly doubled the amount this year. I didn't jump in to defend Oliver North last year, but I sure don't consider him a "loser." I enjoy his programs on tv, and would like to hear him speak in person. When did he lie under oath? To congress or in court? I thought he testified under limited immunity, and was pretty unapologetic about what he did in Iran-Contra. Hey, Clinton lied under oath to a Grand Jury, and has made $40 million in speaking fees over the last 6 years. The fact is people will pay to hear these celebrities speak. If you don't like it, don't go! The mission of the event was to raise funds - they certainly were successful. A high school Eagle Scout has it figured out - why can't some of you?

The description of the loose ends doesn't work with the plaque, as the loose ends go out to the side on the top half, instead of dropping down as they do on the knot. In every publication I have seen (Insignia Guide 2003-2005, Scoutmasters Handbook) and on the plaque, the crossed part of the rope is on top. It is shown correctly here: http://www.usscouts.org/awards/distawardmerit.html

No, no, no. We need two shirts - a Meeting shirt and a Camping shirt. The current uniform shirt would be the Meeting shirt (maybe get rid of the collar, or just turn it under). Seeing as how I attend many more meetings than I do campouts (regular Pack/Troop meetings, District Committe, Roundtable), this shirt would see a lot of wear. I like the current design, epaulets and all. It looks good and functions well as a Meeting shirt. The Camping shirt could be the new nylon activity shirt, with a few patches for leader position, rank, unit number and patrol. I don't think I would wear a neckerchief with that shirt, but would if the boys wanted to. How many of you wear neckerchiefs while out on real backpacking trips (AT, Philmont)? Why not have just one? In my mind, the Camping shirt is going to see rough use and might get a little "worn." For meetings, wear a nice looking shirt that stays in good shape.

emb021, I have to disagree with you about joint tenure for awards, other than the Boy Scout Leader's Training Award and Scoutmaster's Key. The Tenure requirements for all the Cub Scout Awards state "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award." Some other awards have similar restrictions. The District Committee Scouter's Key states "Tenure for one award cannot be used for other training awards." The Scouting Training Award for Venturing states: "Complete a total of two years as a registered adult Venturing leader. (Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award.)" Your suggestion that one can earn the TDL Award and Venturing Scouting Training Award appears to be incorrect, by the regs. If another source contradicts the regs, I'm not aware of it.

I love them! Great outdoor material, regarding breathability and quick drying. I understand that the comments about sizing are making their way up the chain, so will hopefully see more sizing options in the future. The nylon belt and quick drain pockets were added for a reason - you can wear them right into the water. There are additional belt loops if you wish to wear another belt. The pants legs can be shortened, if too long. Use a loop stitch just below the zipper where the legs come off. The stitch will be hidden below the flap on the upper part of the pants, if you stitch it close to the zipper.

Yes, only nice pranks. And make sure you only take the boys camping during nice weather.

Hmmm.... I don't remember seeing merit badges on Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean or Reverent. Should we get rid of these parts of the program as well? Scouts' Own Services are used pretty regularly around here. These are great services for boys and adults, alike. Not part of the core program? I thought troops repeated the Oath and Law at every meeting. As a youth, when I went through SM reviews or BOR's, I was asked how I lived by the Oath and Law. Scout requirement #7, Tenderfoot #7, Second Class #9, First Class #10. Do y'all just ignore "Duty to God" and Reverent?

Why is it important to me? Simple. Some on this forum have accused National of outright lying when they say only 5% of Scouts earn Eagle. I don't think National would have any interest, or anything to gain, in making up that number. Plus, I just have an interest in what % does make the rank. Besides, I like to decide what is important to me, and not have to have it approved by others.

This sounds like a good time for some perspective, from an Eagle Scout who faced some real difficulties - not some simple pranks. Percy Sutton grew up during segregation. His black troop was forced to go to their own black camps; they couldn't intermingle with whites. Quoting from "Legacy of Honor": "After suffering for so long - as a Scout in a segragated troop, as a serviceman in a segragated army, and as a black citizen in the civil rights struggle at home - I thought he surely must hold some grudge. He doesn't. 'To be an Eagle Scout means to me that in spite of everything I went through in that period, except for that Scouting experience, I might have been a very angry, bitter person," he said. "That's what the badge means to me.' ...He saw an America beyond the segregation that affected every facet of his daily life, and he willingly fought for his country's true ideals at home and abroad. So when he faced the demons of our society later in life, he never considered an option other than confronting his challenges head on, persevering, and making right that which was wrong." I haven't even scratched the surface of the humiliation he faced as a black man during segregation. Read the book to see how he was kicked off a train because he, a decorated Airman from WWII, dared to sit with his new wife at a table with a Major who had never served overseas. What he dealt with as a Freedom Rider in Montgomery. That is one mentally strong Eagle Scout. Are we building men who could deal with that sort of humiliation today? When they can't even deal with a simple prank? B-P must be rolling in his grave.

You can't find how to deal with a prank in the Aims? Let me help you out. Character Development: He can take care of himself, especially in emergencies. He can be counted upon to do his best, even in difficult situations. He respects other people regardless of their differences. Mental Fitness: Use good judgement and make sound decisions. Train himself to be resourceful in solving problems. Strive to be mentally alert. "Scouts have to be prepared to encounter difficulties and dangers in life. We do not, therefore, want to make their training too soft." Lord Baden-Powell

With all due respect, Pete, are you teaching Scouting, or sheltering children? Do you check to make sure each patrol cookes their bacon well enough on each campout? When, exactly, are your Scouts supposed to gain all this knowledge and wisdom - after they leave Scouting? Aren't we supposed to be teaching them to live by the Oath and Law? If the boys go too far with a prank, what an excellent opportunity to TEACH them! I thought we were supposed to be taking 11 year old children and turning them into young men. How do you do that, if all you ever do is treat them like children? BTW, for those who didn't recognize them, the words in my previous post in this thread aren't mine - they are direct quotes from Baden-Powell. Seems he appreciated a sense of humour, and had strong disdain for "safety first" before all else.

Reviving an old topic... In Al Townley's new book, Legacy of Honor, he states, "Of the 110 million boys who have joined the Scout movement, just shy of 2 million have reached its pinnacle (Eagle)." This book just came out, with a 2007 copyright. He doesn't state where he got the numbers, but I'm assuming from National. He works just down the road from me, so I'll see if I can contact him for additional info. My calculator tells me that number is just shy of 2%. I have just started the book - it arrived today - and I can tell I am going to really enjoy it.

I'll repeat it here in this thread, because I think it warrants repeating. Sense of humour, that is being able to see a funny side to even a dangerous or unpleasant situation, is of the highest value to a man in going through life. I deplore the modern tendency to place "safety first" before all else. A certain amount of risk is necessary to life, a certain amount of taking risks is necessary to the prolongation of life. Scouts have to be prepared to encounter difficulties and dangers in life. We do not, therefore, want to make their training too soft. "Safety first" is too readily adopted as a fetish and as a screen by the more timid and lazily inclined.

I don't get it. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .