BrentAllen

Yes, I would, if the criteria as described in the book was met. Unless the camp site was within hiking distance, adults would be needed to transport the boys. If I was confident the boys could handle themselves, I would be all for dropping them off and picking them up afterwards. I would consider it a crowning achievement of my leadership if they struck out on their own and held a successful campout. "There they go. I must hurry after them, for I am their leader." Unknown.

LH, Lots of variables to consider, but the proper way to handle this situation is clearly described in the SM HB, Chapter 4, pg. 22.

Eamonn, If the adults are acting as a Patrol, you don't have to babysit them. The SM does not have to be the Patrol leader. It is probably better if he isn't, since he has other duties to the troop. One of the other adult leaders, probably an ASM, should be PL, scheduling all functions of the adult patrol. The adult patrol leader would function just like a PL for the boys - he would put together a duty roster for the adult patrol, make sure a menu is planned and a cook/grubmaster is in charge of groceries. Someone has to be in charge, unless all the adults are doing their own thing, which I think would be a very bad idea. Adult patrols are a great way to model the patrol method. Boys from other patrols shouldn't enter the adult patrol area unless they are given permission. Adults shouldn't enter the boy's patrol areas unless they request and are granted permission. Adults using the patrol method is also a great way to teach new parents how the patrol method is supposed to work, and it keeps they away from their sons. I see lots of positives and can't think of any negatives. Plus, it builds patrol spirit among the leaders, fostering a team spirit which should be a real asset for the troop, overall.

In the Troop of my youth, the adults were in the Over The Hill Patrol - it is still going strong after some 30 odd years. One of the local troops has the Legends Patrol for the adults.

"Many have said that this would not be allowed in their troop. Allowed by whom?" Allowed by the Troop - the boys and the leaders. Parents are told if they want to come on a camping trip, fine, but they are in the adult patrol. They set the example for the boys by camping, cooking, cleaning, functioning as a patrol. The boys in the patrol do the same. They camp in their own patrol locations. LH - where do you draw the line? Do the dads cook for the boys? Do they set up the tents for the boys? Do they plan the meals and buy the groceries for the boys? You could do all that and still say the troop is using the patrol method, under your lose definition. As long as the boys have a patrol emblem on their shoulder, they are practicing the Patrol Method, right?

I can't imagine too many situations where boys should be sleeping in the same tent with their dad. This is Boy Scouts, not Cub Scouts. They are supposed to camp, cook and function as a patrol. Dad should be in the adult patrol, doing the same thing. From the Patrol Leader Handbook, pg. 72, Camping: "During troop camping trips, the patrol usually will function as a unit, establishing a campsite independent of the other patrols but not too far from the rest of the troop. Patrol tents can be grouped together, often with buddies sharing two-person tents." Allowing Cubs on Boy Scout trips?? Must not be very challenging camping trips. It's Me - I'm in your same position, dealing with some of your same issues. Good luck. I don't know what happened to the Boy Scouts program I used to know.

gwd, The Troops here hire some guides out of Chattanooga for their rock climbing trips, especially over to Sand Rock, in eastern Alabama. The guides have all the equipment and expertise. Great climbing location. Raccoon Mountain offers great caving trips. Boy Scout Troops go further back in the cave, spending the night pretty far back. I think Eamonn means Powder Horn, not Silver Horn. Powder Horn is training for Scouters who want to put together High Adventure trips. From our Council web page: "Powder Horn is a training opportunity designed to expose Venturing Leaders, Boys Scout Leaders or Cub Scout Leaders to activities and resources necessary to operate a successful Venturing Ranger or Troop High Adventure Program. Powder Horn is conducted over two (3-day) weekends. The dates are May 4-6 and May 18 - 20, 2007. Check out http://www.powderhorn-bsa.org/ for more info. Have you checked out the Council High Adventure page? http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/directory/ There is a rock climbing and rapelling High Adventure Camp here in north Georgia, run by the Army Rangers on Mt. Yonah, where they train the Rangers. Unfortunately it is only offered one week a year, in June, I think.

I must live in a different world. Here, almost all Scout units are increasing in membership. Upward Basketball is growing pretty dramatically. When my wife broke her knee, people came out of the woodwork to bring meals. The same happens when other neighbors are injured or have surgeries. Our neighborhood 4th of July parade is Small Town America, right here in the city. I guess I should just count my lucky stars.

Beavah writes "Now, if any of us knows of another council that tried dual registration of cubs and boy scouts, I think that's a fine thing to pass along to them if they're thinkin' about it. Same as we all pass along our personal experiences with rotatin' NSP PL's and such. Neither are currently "standard program", but for some unit or council somewhere, it might be just the ticket to get past a rough spot or get to a bigger goal." Wrong, Beavah. Dual registration between Cubs and BS is not mentioned in the program materials. In fact, the procedures outlined specifically prohibit it. "Scoutmaster holds Webelos application until he graduates and moves his membership..." Rotating PL's in an NSP is mentioned and allowed, as described in the program. I'm sure you can find it, but if not, let me know and I will be glad to point it out to you.

"My plan for next year is to try to ramp up the outdoor stuff and reduce the "den meetings". This is where the Troops need to step up and help the Webelos Den Leaders who frequently don't have the experience/equipment to do these things." Review Chapter 22 of the Cub Leader Book, Webelos Scout Transition to Boy Scouting. It outlines the responsibilities of the Pack, Webelos Den Leader and Troops. The Webelos Den Leader needs to contact Troops in July/August to start planning joint Troop/Webelos II campouts. Definitely ramp up the outdoor activities. We did, and the result is our boys are better campers than many of the younger boys in the Troop they joined. Our Webelos II schedule looked like this: September Rock Climbing campout with Troop 266 (our boys went bouldering) October Pack Parent/Son camping trip November District Webelos Woods Campout December Horseback riding & visit to Warm Springs with Troop 477 January Webelos Caving Trip March Backpacking Trip with Troop 764 Add in the Pinewood Derby, some Den meetings to work on AOL - they didn't have many chances to get bored.

In our NSP, the boys are going to elect a new PL every 3 months. There are 9 boys in the Patrol, so they all aren't going to get to be PL. That's fine - they should see what a PL is supposed to do, except for attending PLC's. Hopefully, that will give them enough time to get their feet wet. Good luck!

Cub Scout Leader Book, Chapter 21, Webelos Program, pg. 21-12 "5. The Scoutmaster provides an Application to Become a Boy Scout, which the Webelos Scout completes and returns to the Scoutmaster. This application is help until graduation, when the boy is ready to move his membership to the troop. 6. When the Webelos Scout is ready to move his membership to the troop, the pack leadership conducts a graduation ceremony at the pack meeting. Webelos dens usually graduate together and form a new patrol in the troop. Grade-based Webelos dens are encouraged to graduate by February of the fifth-grade year. If a Webelos Scout has not earned the Arrow of Light, he may remain in the den until he turns 11 years old or completes the fifth grade." Beavah, I don't see anything that allows a boy to join Boy Scouts and still remain in the Pack. The program is very specific about moving his membership from one program to the other. For the Scout program to mean anything, it must have standards. This is one of them.

Kudu writes: "No, OGE, "Scouting" does not have three aims, only BSA Scouting has three aims. According to Baden-Powell Scouting has only one (1) Aim: Citizenship. Character development and fitness are means to the end: the one single Aim of Scouting, Citizenship. Pop Quiz: in which version of Scouting is Citizenship more important, in the BSA model where Citizenship is only one of three Aims, or in Baden-Powell's model where Citizenship is the only Aim of Scouting?" Kudu, please explain why B-P requested a Royal Charter which "shall be one body corporate and politic by name of the Boy Scouts Association for the primary object of instructing boys of all classes in the principles of discipline, loyalty and good citizenship." When B-P learned the Royal Charter had been approved, he stated, "This gives the seal of the highest approval in the land upon our aims and methods." I believe he said aims, not aim.

LH, A synthetic bag is usually only good for 4 - 5 years of heavy use, but a down bag should last at least 20 years. The synthetic fibers get crushed every time you compress the bag, and don't regain their full size afterwards. The down feathers will compress and come right back. One of our adults is using the same REI down bag he took to Philmont as a Scout, probably close to 30 years ago. It has seen a lot of use, but keeps working great. He hangs it in a closet after each use. If your down bag isn't working as well as it did, you probably need to wash it. This pod cast includes a story about a man who had a down bag that stopped working, and after washing it properly, it was as good as new. It is loaded with good info on down bags. http://www.trailcast.org/podcasts/trailcast-17-Jan-30-2006.mp3 If that doesn't get you there, go to http://www.westernmountaineering.com/ and you will find it on the front page.

ajmako, I would say my thoughts mirror yours very closely. I would point out that B-P realized pretty quickly, after thousands of Patrols had formed across England in 1908, that he needed more adults involved. I don't think he put together the first Wood Badge course because he didn't have anything better to do. :-) I think the term "permanent patrols" may be confusing to some. Some might think that means a group that is formed, with no additions or subtractions, for a number of years. A Troop has a choice of either spreading new boys among existing Patrols (vertical integration) or forming New Scout Patrols. In the former, the "permanent" Patrols will add and lose Scouts every year, but the core remains the same. As a Troop expands and contracts, those Patrols may have to do the same. I don't know of any Troop that reorganizes their Patrols on an annual basis, as standard practice. I can't think of any good reason for such a practice. The Troop my son just joined utilizes NSP's. I have very mixed feelings about that method, versus the alternative. I see positives and negatives to both. In this Troop, I haven't seen a whole lot of Patrol identity, as you mention in your last paragraph. The couple of campouts we have attended included a lot of ad hoc Patrols, which I really don't like. It points to problems with participation, to begin with. I don't see how any real leadership lessons are learned, and unfortunately, this has happened so many times, it appears to now be SOP. As the ASM-NSP, I hope to have some influence in changing this attitude. I hope these boys will be an example how a Patrol is supposed to function. They will either influence the Troop, or be influenced. We'll see what has happened a year from now. :-)

... when the nine boys from your Pack that crossed over all show up for their first Troop meeting last night, half in full uniform, the others were except for some long pants, due to the cold weather; much more so than the rest of the Troop. In one meeting, they elected their Patrol leader, he appointed an assistant, and they elected a Quartermaster. They voted on a Patrol name (Cavaliers, as in knights) and selected their Patrol patch. Then they planned their menus and made camping arrangements for the District Camporee this weekend! (8 of the 9 are attending). Not bad for one night's work! Several of the boys asked about earning the National Honor Patrol Award, then they all agreed they want to earn it. They have all signed up for Summer Camp in July. As the ASM-NSP, I conducted the election of the Patrol Leader (we don't have a TG yet), then turned the meeting over to him. I let him know what needed to be done, and they did it. I think they are off to a very good start.

Beavah, Here is the answer Kudu gave back on 10/30/06: "More recently, one of my Assistant Scoutmasters, an Eagle Scout who never participates in our winter camping or canoe trips, came up with the idea of having his son's Patrol pack a bagged lunch in empty backpacks and take a day hike to satisfy the Camping Merit Badge optional backpacking requirement. As he pointed out to the Merit Badge Counselor, the requirement merely states "Backpack for at least four miles." Nowhere does it actually specify that the backpacks have anything in them! He was really angry when I pointed out to the Counselor that their day hike had been less than a mile. This tension only increased when I caught him trying to correct this error by talking the Counselor into letting Scouts wearing empty backpacks walk around the block during weekly Troop meetings until they finally reached the four mile specification that I was being so "difficult" about. I was able to shame the Counselor into rejecting this idea but in the end he got his way by scheduling a "Patrol campout" for his son's Patrol on the same weekend as a Troop campout (so that I wouldn't attend). Afterward he notified the Counselor that the Scouts had fulfilled the requirement by walking with backpacks in circles around the perimeter of his suburban woodlot until they had walked a total of four miles." Does that sound like the boy-run, Patrol-led group he is touting? Dear ol' dad scheduling a Patrol campout for his son's Patrol? How about this for the dreaded Adult Association he has protested against? "Since then I have refused to sign blue cards for Camping Merit Badge unless the Scout has already been on a simple four mile weekend backpacking trip with me." Sounds like adding to the rules to me, as well. And he complains about SM conferences??

Sorry, but Scouting is not just a game. Baseball is a game. Scouting most definitely is a game with a purpose, whether B-P said it or not. "Scouting is a school of citizenship through games, for boys and girls." B-P, Aids, WB, foreword "Don't let the technical outweigh the moral. Field efficiency, backwoodsmanship, camping, hiking, good turns, jamboree comradeship are all means, not the end. The end is character - character with a purpose. And that purpose, that the next generation be sane in an insane world, and develop the higher realisation of Service, the active service of Love and Duty to God and neighbor." B-P, "The Scouter", March 1939 I'm working on the others.

I guess this is a repeat, but trying to break the ice. I wear the 3 I have earned - AOL, CM, DAM. I wear them on all 3 shirts I have - CM, ASM, District Committee. BTW, I do my own sewing. :-)

scoutldr, Because we enjoy discussing it, and giving each other a friendly poke in the ribs now and then. Beavah, The only time I recall seeing anyone wearing more than 9 knots was at Wood Badge, during the luncheon where former CD's are invited to attend. Some of those elderly gentlemen were wearing 12 or 15. Did they wear them to make them feel important? Was it pride? I don't know. It really isn't any of my business. They earned them, they have dedicated much of their lives to serving boys in Scouting - some had more than 40 years of service. Maybe they like wearing them because it reminds them of all the fun they had over all those years. I, for one, am not about to tell them they can only wear 5 or 6 knots. At 43, I'm just a young whipper-snapper to them! And yes, I wear all of my knots - all 3 of them. :-)

Beavah, o' wise one. If only 5 medals or knots are allowed, why o why does the IG have a rendering of a left pocket showing 4 knots and 2 medals? I notice that none of the knots appear to be for the DAM. Doing my math, 4 + 2 = 6, which is greater than 5, most days. Please explain.

Stosh, Congratulations on your large collection. Me, I go for quality, not quantitiy. First editions, that sort of thing. It's obvious you know more than me. I just go by the SM HB, as I was taught in training. Rock on, brother. Brent

Beavah, Using a little selective editing, eh? Here is the full paragraph from the Insignia Guide. "With the exception of the Cub Scout badges of rank and Arrow Points, members wear only the insignia that show their present status in the movement. Members should make every effort to keep their uniforms neat and uncluttered. Previously earned badges and insignia - not representing present status - make a fine display on a BSA red patch vest, a trophy hide or blanket, exhibited in the home of the recipient, or at functions where such a display is invited. Members may wear only temporary patches (no badges of rank) on the back of the merit badge sash. Members may wear only one merit badge sash at a time. A merit badge sash is never worn on a belt." Now, maybe it is just me, but all those sentences appear to be addressing Scout uniforms, not Scouters. If your interpretation was correct, why would the AOL knot even be offered? It certainly would not represent anyone's present status in the movement. Under Medals and Embroidered Knots, there is no restriction listed. The only sentence addressing the order states, "The order of wearing of medals and knots is at the discretion of the wearer."

Stosh, I was refering to a statement from Kudu, about his assumption of Adult Association. Please show me where I mentioned anything else you posted about what an SM does. All of that is explained in the SM HB - again I ask, do you even have a copy? It explains what happens if a BOR feels a Scout isn't ready to advance. Sorry you don't like it, but it is the BSA method! Question - in your boy-led, patrol-only method, who ensures the 3 Aims are met and the 8 Methods are used? If you think adult role modeling and mentoring in Scouting is a very small part of the program, then you are missing the whole boat. Here are just two examples where an SM made a huge difference in the life of a Scout. Imagine if the SM had just sat back and did nothing, not wanting to interfere with the boy-led patrols. Frank Logue was in my Troop, same age as me. This is from a sermon he gave a few years back. "Heres one way I have seen grace passed along in my own life. When I was growing up, I was always in scouting. I started out in Cub Scouts by attending my brothers meetings as my Mom was the den mother. When I was finally old enough to be a Cub Scout, I joined and did not unjoin all through elementary school, junior high, high school and my first year of college. Scouting was good to me. I got to see the world, backpacking our west, traveling to England and Sweden for the World Jamboree and more. But most importantly, I was in troop that considered itself to be a ministry. The leaders were passing along the grace they received. They had been given undeserved favor from God and they were passing it along to us. My Scoutmaster was Gene McCord. Well north of six feet tall, Mr. McCord was imposing for a young scout. Mr. McCord was at times a rigid taskmaster who demanded your best of you. But over time, I came to see how Mr. McCord loved us. When I was 16, I had a couple of incidents Mr. McCord found out about. One time, I was driving a car while Mark, another buddy of mine from scouts, was throwing bottles at signs and mailboxes, just to hear them smash. Another time, I got mad at Mark and dropped him off in the middle of no where. Now, no one but me and God and Mark knew about these incidents and I know for a fact that Mark didnt tell. In each case, Mark and I were seen and someone reported it back to Mr. McCord. He pulled me aside at a meeting and layed it all on the line. Mr. McCord reminded me that I was not that kind of boy and would not be that kind of man. Mr. McCord had given me lots of unmerited favor and love already and right when I was least deserving of love he showed me tough love. In no uncertain terms, Mr. McCord made it clear that I would not continue down the new path I had set for myself. There were no threats. There were no ultimatums. By force of will, he was blocking the way. I had no choice but to stay on the straight and narrow path. Many years later and just a few years ago, I was asked to speak at a dinner given for Mr. McCords retirement as a scoutmaster after something like 30 years. I looked around at Mark, and all my fellow scouts from years before. I recounted this story and then I said, How can we possibly thank Gene McCord for all he did for us. The answer was clear. Paying him back is not possible or even the right idea. Saying thank you is not enough. The way to thank Mr. McCord is to pass along the love he showed us to another generation. Mr. McCord always connected his leadership in Scouting to his faith in God. He knew that he could not earn or deserve Gods love. Instead of trying to pay back God, he passed Gods grace along to others." The entire sermon can be found at: http://kingofpeace.org/sermons/sermon-123001.htm I heard Jeff Foxworth say something similar. He grew up without his dad, after his parents divorced and his mother moved back in with her parents. Jeff will tell you he is where he is because an SM invested some time in him. He will tell you he could have easily taken the wrong path in life, but didn't, all because his SM was willing to listen to him, to give him some direction, to challenge him and to expect a lot from him. Without Adult Association, as described in the SM HB, these things would not happen. Stosh, you can go ahead and put a lot of other words in my mouth, but what I'm saying is clear and simple.

Kudu writes: "I agree that human nature is the same, but what aspects of adult behavior are encouraged depend on how the program is structured: the BSA has the adult-led method called "Adult Association" which is a collection of powers taken away from the Patrol Leaders and given to the adults by the adults." Excuse me, but what a bunch of hog wash! The Adult Association is described as follows, at least in my copy of the SM HB: "Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positivie role models for the members of their troops. In many cases a Scoutmaster who is willing to listen to boys, encourage them, and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives." How many success stories have we heard where a boy comes from a single-parent family with no father figure, and Scouting made a huge difference in their lives? Those kind of stories aren't going to happen without Adult Association! And don't give me the "BOR & SM Conference is taking power away from the PL's" argument. The SM conference, as described in the SM HB, is a conversation to see if the boy is ready to advance. Same thing with the BOR. It is also a great time for the SM and Committee members to take a pulse on the troop - how are things going, what needs to be improved. Teaching boys how to interact with adults is a very important skill - more so than learning how to tie a square knot. And Kudu, I'm still waiting to hear which B-P quotes are phony. Or do you wish to retract that statement.