BrentAllen

SWS, How do you deal with the second sentence under General Information: "The award is available to Scouters who render service of an outstanding nature at the district level." To me, that statement predicates the requirements. That limits your pool.

"One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol." Appoint?? Who is doing the "appointing?" I thought PL's were supposed to be elected by the boys in the Patrol. Maybe the BSA is closer to B-P's ideas than some here think....

You might want to check the nomination form at http://www.scouting.org/forms/33720.pdf To quote: "The award is available to Scouters who render service of an outstanding nature at the district level." "Consideration must be given to the nominee's Scouting position and the corresponding opportunity to render outstanding service beyond the expectations of that Scouting position." "The nominee's attitude toward and cooperation with the district and/or council is to be taken into consideration." So, as the name implies, this is an award for district service. The nomination form has check boxes for lots of awards that could be earned. I wouldn't confine myself to just looking at awards received, but more importantly at service above and beyond the call of duty at the district level. Some ideas might include performing an outstanding job at either Day Camp or a district camporee. Or working with in several different areas of district service - a nominee might help out with FOS, School Night for Scouting, District PWD and Day Camp. Some might want to nominate a SM who has served for 25 years and produced a lot of Eagles. While that is very admirable, I don't see it as strong criteria for the DAM. There are other awards for that SM; the DAM should be reserved for those serving the district.

BTW, it isn't the DE's job to recruit and train the District Activities Chair - it is the responsibility of the District Committee Chair. He is responsible for building the District Committee, filling any vacancies. The DE is very interested in having those positions filled, as it will make his job easier. As gwd mentioned, no one would step up and plan the camporee. This is a failure of the volunteers, not the DE. Sounds to me like the DE is going above and beyond the call of duty to make up for the volunteers who aren't making things happen. Instead of giving him a hard time, I would be thanking my lucky stars that I had such a dedicated professional.

Wow. It doesn't take long for that "them vs. us" divide to show up. Lot's of assumptions being made here. As Membership V-C, if I have a Pack in my district that isn't affiliated with a Troop, then they are a prime candidate for starting a new Troop. GWD stated they had recruited at the private school, but without much success. As Membership V-C, I would see a group of boys who are not in a Troop, but have real potential to form a solid unit. Also, don't forget that districts that want to earn Quality District need to start a new unit. It could be the district Membership V-C that is working to establish this new unit - it should be him/her. Regardless, the Membership V-C and the DE would both just be doing their jobs in trying to start this new unit. What is the alternative? The boys aren't joining GWD's Troop, so just leave them alone? Don't try to find another way to get them in to Scouting? Hightower Trail has a Spring Camporee, in April. I can't imagine our DE or DD trying to pull a camporee off by themselves. The district IS the units. If you feel that your unit is on the outside of the district, looking in, then your unit probably doesn't have any Scouters serving in distict leadership positions. Get involved. There should be plenty of sub-committees, if you are limited for time.

The district can help with recruitment of Scouts (helping with School Night for Scouting), but if there aren't leaders there to provide the program, the boys aren't going to stick around. It is not the district's responsibility to find leaders for the unit - it is up to the COR and the CC. If the unit has a UC, he can help as well. The district should provide training opportunities, so that once the leaders are identified, they can get trained to run the program properly. The elementary school we are associated with has around 725 students. Our Pack has around 120 boys.

Gonzo, No, you aren't the only one. This happens from time to time, and they usually fix it for awhile before it messes up again. This usually means you can't PM anyone as well, but I don't know if that is the case this time. Sorry I haven't stopped by to see you - been too busy at work. Maybe next month. Brent

Eamon wrote: "Still if he wanted to try alcohol or drugs, there is very little I could do to stop him or prevent him. I have to hope my past work pays off." Sorry to hijack this thread, but there is something you can do. Check out http://www.project7thgrade.org/ Synopsis - keep drug test kits in your home, and use them. If your son doesn't use drugs, he has nothing to worry about - and you can reward him for staying drug free. It also gives him an "out" if he is pressured to use drugs. "I can't do that - my parents have drug test kits at home, and we all get tested periodically." If he is using, you will find out early, before it is too late. The parents that started Project 7th Grade and notMYkids.org thought their kids would never use drugs - straight A students, star athletes, etc.. They thought they could trust their kids, and didn't realize how powerful and addictive the drugs were. If your son is using drugs, how would you rather find out - from a police officer knocking on your door or a call from the hospital, or from a home drug test kit? As for video games, my son loves X-Box. He would play all the time if he could. He isn't allowed to play on school nights, and only on the weekends after all projects and homework is completed. I find it to be a great tool for correcting behaviour. Losing those privileges for a weekend is a severe penalty to him.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

C-BOLT - questions for you. Let's assume you are a Webelos II looking for a Troop to join. You go to a Troop meeting and half the boys are wearing blue jeans with their uniform shirts, and some of the adults are as well. You go on a campout with this Troop, and the Scouts are using bad language. Their camp site is trashed - it looks like an airliner crashed and spread debris every where. The Scouts are having fun, though. They seem to be really enjoying the program. Would you want to join this troop? What would you think about Scouting in this troop?

Beavah, I don't think using/not using a FCFY program will determine whether the boys actually learn and retain the skills. As has been mentioned, FCFY is a road map, and a pretty clear one, compared to the alternative. It SHOULD help with attendance, as the Scouts will see they need to attend meetings and events, or they are going to miss a lot! I think the problem with retention is too much Webelos-mentality carry-over for the new Scout parents and leaders. Cub Scouting is about experiencing things, and getting the requirement checked off. Boy Scouts should be about mastering the skills. When little Johnny isn't advancing as fast as his friends, dear ol' mom is going to look at the requirements and say "Johnny was there for the first aid class for TF #12b, he should have that checked off!" Hopefully, a good leader would explain he needs to master those skills, not learn them just long enough to answer some questions at the end of the class. When I was in Scouting as a youth, we used to have all kinds of skills relays between patrols - knots, first aid, fire building, etc. Sadly, I don't see much of that today.

Lisa, The SE recruits and hires the DE's. He is responsible for finding the people that can be successful as DE's. He also promotes or fires, as is required, such as deciding who gets promoted to FD, etc. He is responsible for the staffing at the Council. He is responsible for making sure his finance director knows what he is doing, so the council doesn't go broke. He is responsible for setting goals for the council, and working to achieve them. As we have seen recently, he is responsible for making sure the membership numbers are reported accurately. He is responsible for seeking large corporate and philanthropic donors. When things go bad, he is the one who has to answer the tough questions. I view him as the president of a franchise who runs the business and also has to report back to corporate headquarters. I assume he also has a large voice in deciding which camp improvements get made, and which don't. Better yet, why don't you call your SE and ask him? It can certainly be done in a friendly manner, and he might welcome the opportunity to let some volunteers know exactly what he does. You are both on the same team, right? A few years back, one of my WB Patrol mates was the weekend volunteer Camp Master at Woodruff, our most popular council camp. We were camping there that weekend as well. A mom (from another unit) fell into their campfire ring, hands first, and burned her hands and lower arms pretty badly (just like in Survivor). The Camp Master told me the SE, down in Atlanta, about 2 hours away, was on the phone constantly, making sure the mom received all the medical attention she needed at the hospital. He said the response from the SE and the council was pretty amazing.

OGE writes: " where are the 25-40 year old Eagle scouts who are also athletes, why don't we hear about them, or is it because it's one thing or the other?" They are still out there, but are getting harder to find. But don't blame Scouting for the problem. In the past, you could miss a practice to attend a Scouting event - no big deal. In today's ultra-competitive world, coaches (who must win at all cost) don't cut any slack. Here, our 3rd, 4th and 5th graders play county rec football. They will practice 3 nights a week and play one game. They are told if they miss one practice, they don't get to play. The sad thing is many of these kids are getting burned out on the sports, and stop playing by middle school, and won't play in high school. They are destroying their best athletes, and either don't see it or don't care. Of course, by then, the boy has quit Scouting as well, and won't get back in. Scouting is the most accomodating activity a boy will participate in. From my view, if a Scout has other activities that block him from attending meetings, as long as he lets leadership know, they can work with him. He MUST be able to perform the duties of any POR he has. If he can't, he doesn't need to accept the position. We want well-rounded youth, especially as Eagles. Some posters here may be talking about boys who don't have a real conflict, but just decide they don't want to go to a meeting tonight, and do this habitually. Those types need to recognize they have an obligation to their Patol to show up and carry some weight.

Gern writes: "Scouting is too good to let it languish at the hands of a few misguided professionals. There are so many boys out there that we can reach. " A few misguided professionals? I don't know what kind of unit you are involved with, but come on down to my area of the country and see how people feel about that statement. With churches being the largest group of CO's in the organization, do you really think the majority of the Scouting population shares your sentiment? I believe you are going to find you are in a very small minority. Curious - does your unit recognize Scout Sunday? If so, what do they do to recognize it? Does your unit hold Scouts' Own Services on campouts?(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Seeing as how the Patrol method is so important to Scouting (do I need to pull out the quotes from B-P?), someone please explain to me how a Scout who "does not attend campouts, summer camp, eagle project and most troop meetings" is living by the Oath. How is he helping the other members of his Patrol? How is he being trustworthy, loyal, helpful,.... to his Patrol mates? Hard for me to see how he is helping other people at all times when he isn't helping his Patrol at all. Certainly not my idea of Scout Spirit. Doesn't sound to me like that boy wants to be a Scout.

ynot, For parents #1, sit down with the parents and explain the Aims & Methods of Scouting. Let the parents know the purpose of Scouting is not to just reach Eagle - it is to train boys to be leaders and good citizens. Their son shouldn't feel he is "done" with Scouting when he earns Eagle - he would then be in position to be a good leader and mentor for the younger Scouts in the troop. As for #2, showing Scout Spirit is very subjective - hard to give you an answer. No Scout Spirit at all? He doesn't attend meetings or go on campouts? Doesn't wear his uniform? Need more info.

ASM915, How much does your Council charge for Summer Camp? Does the amount they are charging actually cover the cost? The average Joe Scout wouldn't know our council is subsidizing our camp - they just pay the fee and go (I think it is around $225 - $250). Council doesn't set the price for camp based on the cost of running it. The cost is greater than what is charged, and the council makes up the difference, from its budget. Our Council also offeres camperships, for those who can't afford the fee. Sounds like y'all have a great council, dedicated pro's and a great summer camp! Glad to hear I'm not the only one who feels that way about their home council!

I guess I'm a little shocked that so many experienced Scouters on this page don't know what the pro's do, how they work. The DE position is an entry level job. If the DE is successful, after 2 or 3 years, they will move up to Sr. DE. If successful, they will be promoted to DD. The DD works with the district just like the DE, but also supervises/mentors the DE. The Field Director supervises the DD's and DE's in several (in our area, 5) districts. As has been mentioned, the pro's are required to be advisors for every district and council event. Here, our DE is at Day Camp every day. Our DD has worked at council summer camps the past 2 summers. Whether it is Webelos Woods, Cub Aquatics, Cub Family Camping, Cub-O-Ree, Camporee - one of them will be there for the entire event. And not just there as a bump on a log. They help with registration, coordinating events, doing whatever is asked. During the program year, our DE attends all Roundtables and district committee meetings. They provide membership numbers, FOS numbers, anything else we need. They help coordinate meetings, follow up on any phone calls that need to be made. We needed to recruit a Program Director for Day Camp this year. Once our candidate was identified, our DE set up a lunch meeting between myself, the candidate and herself. We left the meeting with a new PD onboard. For our next Roundtable, the DE will make copies of the forms we need. The pro's show up for School Night for Scouting events and help with registration. They provide recruiting materials, including videos or powerpoint/musical presentations that show what Scouting is all about in a very entertaining way. The kids and the parents love them, and they really help with recruiting! They keep us informed of any upcoming events we need to be aware of. They help with all the details of any district event - securing the location, arranging for equipment needs, ordering patches. I can't even remember all the things they do. I might try to keep track, for one month, of every conversation I have with them, and of everything they do for us. I just got off the phone with our FD, discussing all the steps I need to follow as Camp Director for Cub Family Camping this summer. This is a new position for me, so I've got a lot to learn. He knows all the details, so we made up a list. He just spent 30 minutes with me on a Sunday night, discussing that position, our Day Camp, my son crossing over in a few weeks. These people are extremely dedicated, and love Scouting. If you are serving on your district's staff, and don't have a working relationship with your pro's, I don't know how you function. As for the $150 sponsor fee, that is about what the council subsidizes on Summer Camp registration fees. They subsidize the fee so more boys can afford to attend camp. What does summer camp cost? $200 - $250? Compare that to Y camp or other camps. We point that fact out at FOS, and ask if the families if they can "sponsor" one boy at camp (pay the subsidy). If they are Boy Scout families, we ask if they can "sponsor" their son and another, for $300. You may look at your FOS contribution as going to the SE's salary. I look at my $1,000 donation as going to help several boys attend camp, put in new bathrooms and build a new mess hall, replace old canvas tents, pay for gas in the ski boat, pay for camp staff (including Rangers), pay for .22 ammo and shot gun shells, pay for new staff quarters, pay for all the maintenance equipment at camp, and the list goes on and on....

Lisa, Yes, this is a pretty affluent area, so our numbers might be higher. There may be another difference, one that I'm interesting in discussing. OGE hit on it in his thread about the schism. We do not expect our pro's to do the heavy lifting in FOS. We don't expect them to go out and start new units. We don't expcet them to go out and recruit for us. Our district FOS chair asks the units for dates when either he or another volunteer and one of our pro's can come out. When setting up the Golden Eagle breakfast, it was a district volunteer who searched out table hosts, set up conference calls to see where we stood, and followed up on progress. Our pro's would participate in the calls, but they are there to help and provide resources. As district Membership V-C, it is my responsibility to look for new units and coordinate School Night for Scouting events. The pro's help and provide resources and ideas, but it is up to us volunteers to make it happen. It's our district, after all. We know the pro's have goals to meet, and we try to help them. In return, they will bend over backwards to help us succeed. It is a fantastic relationship - right out of Wood Badge! Is everything rosy in our district? No. Roundtable attendance has dropped off, partly due to some communication problems we are having with our Scouters (we primarily use Yahoo groups, but many don't know about it). We have an extremely dedicated group of "seasoned" Scouters who fill most of the district positions. They do most of the heavy lifting, and seem to really enjoy it, but I worry about them getting burned out. We need to convince others they can also fill a district position while still serving their unit. We (me) need to do a better job with Webelos to Scout transition. Our BS leader training staff does a great job; we need to offer more CS leader training opportunities. Getting back to our pro's, I can't think of a single time when they have refused a request from me. That includes everything from running copies to making telephone calls, to even staffing my Webelos Woods campout. The latest request was for the SE to attend our B & G last Saturday. We have never had the SE visit one of our events before, but this was a special occasion. We had 2 boys in the exclusive "$2,500 Club" for selling over $2,500 in popcorn. Out of 26,000 Scouts in the AAC that sold popcorn, only 24 made the "Club." We were the only unit in the entire council to have 2 boys in that Club (the boys were also in the same den). I asked our pro's if the SE could come out and recognize those boys, and to present 4 Trailblazer (district award) to 4 of our leaders. They set it up. When the SE arrived, he told me it was his birthday, and he couldn't think of a better way to spend it. We sang Happy Birthday to him; it really turned out well. We work together, with the goal of making Scouting the most exciting activity in our sons' lives. It is definitely a team, not "us" vs. "them."

LH, Since I've never been to Chicago and don't know the history, I can only guess. Maybe it is because the UW and other groups cut their funding to the BSA after the 2000 court decisions. I'm pretty sure we (AAC) took a pretty good hit from UW (and others) funding then, as well as in 2004 with the membership numbers problems. Do the pro's make FOS presentations in your district? Here, we usually have volunteers from District (like me) make them. Maybe we are just out in front, but it's not the pro's pushing FOS, it's the volunteers. BTW, we just lost both our DD and DE this year. Both were promoted, and one became our Field Director. Our new DE is doing great, and our new DD starts later this month, moving in from California. We are in the opposite situation from you - we lose our pro's because they work well with us and are successful, hence they get promoted. That's fine - we wish them well and thank them for their service. If we get good replacements, they will be successful as well, and get promoted, and the cycle will repeat.

"How about soliciting the businesses and high income philanthropist element in the council like they did in the 50s 60s and 70s?" You mean your district and council aren't doing this now? Our FOS campaign has 2 sides - Family and Community. For our district, the Family goal is $75,000 and the Community goal is $95,000. As I mentioned in another thread, our district Golden Eagle breakfast, featuring Jeff Foxworthy, brought in over $200,000, so we have more than doubled our Community goal. I'm not sure where we stand on Family. So yes, we are asking the businesses in the area to support Scouting. I ask all of the families in my unit (Pack) to participate. I remind them that we don't get charged to go camping at our council reservations for Pack campouts. If they can't sponsor a child ($150) then try to give what it would cost to go camping one weekend at a State Park. I ask them take some ownership in the program, and (borrowing from someone who posted this in another thread) not to give til it hurts, but to give until it feels good. So far, we have received contributions from 38 families totaling just over $12,000. I guess you either trust your council leadership, or you don't. I guess I'm just lucky to be in a council where I do trust them. I know members of the executive board. I know the SE. I may not agree with every decision they make, but I trust them. I know the council has spent $1 million recently on new bath houses, plumbing and water lines at Bert Adams. What was the biggest complaint about the camp? The old restrooms with open-air shower rooms. Now, the 50 year old dining hall needs to be replaced. Is that going to be cheap? Not a chance. You either poney up the money, or complain about run down camps. Life being short, I prefer to give and solicit, and end up with fond memories from Summer Camps.

LH, Your pronoun didn't match the antecedent, so don't go blaming me for splittin' hairs. Curious - if not by FOS, how else do you propose that councils fund their salaries? Curious - do you still "believe?"

"I think what is unscoutlike is the methods currently used by National to solicit their salaries from the parents of my scouts." Huh???? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought National paid for all their expenses out of the $10 registration fee. I thought FOS and Popcorn (other than the 35% paid to the unit) went to the Council. Are you saying the $10 registration fee is too high? I don't know what our SE makes, and I really don't care. All I care is he is doing a great job! He probably makes about the same as our school superintendent, but the SE's area includes 18 districts, covering 13 metro counties. The SE also has to rely on a lot of volunteers to make the program happen, instead of counting on salaried workers. He is not guaranteed funding, as is the school system. The job requirements are very different. RE: the troop soliciting funds. What in the world is a troop doing asking for UW funds?? If the troop needs equipment, they should be out raising funds through popcorn sales or other working efforts to pay for it!

scoutldr, Sorry about the slam dunk. With no new Webelos in 2 years, isn't your Troop leadership getting very worried? I would think flashing red lights and warning sirens would be going off! That list of 71 Webelos appears to be your best list of prospects, so I don't understand the reluctance to contact and compete for them. Around here, we are the only Pack this isn't affiliated with a Troop. The competition for our boys varies with the different troops around us. If a Troop has a strong feeder Pack (defined as a Pack with the same CO as the Troop) then they don't compete quite as strongly. Opposite for the others. There are 4 Troops within a few miles of my house, 2 with around 60 members each, one with around 45 - 50, and the last is around 35 - 40. We have 13 Web II's on paper, and 11 will cross over. The Troops usually don't contact us, we contact them. That will change with whichever Troop my son joins. As Membership Vice-Chair for our District, I will be pushing for much more communication between Troops and Packs. We have lots of Webelos crossing over into Troops. The problem for a lot of troops appears to be keeping them in the program. But I guess that is a subject for another thread.

"We (troop unit leaders) were admonished to call each one on the list and ensure that they cross over to a troop." Admonished? You mean you weren't going to do that on your own? "We have not had any new Webs join our happy little troop in 2 years." Anyone else seeing a connection here?

Longhaul, You may have just been using the hike just as an example, but my question is who decided the boys should go on the hike? Did the boys? They are supposed to be deciding their calendar, the trips they want to go on. If you get the boys together and they decide they want to play electronic games rather than go camping, then explaing that Scouting is Outing, and if they don't want to play, they don't belong in Scouts. If the boys haven't experienced a really fun camping trip, then maybe you provide a little more adult leadership at first to let them see how much fun camping and hiking can be. If they don't like it, then why are they in Scouts to begin with? Because their parents want them to be? If so, bad answer. Not trying to be nosey, but have you attended Wood Badge?