EmberMike

What's your evidence that the majority of BSA members are opposed to girl members? Or is it just your opinion, and so you assume that's a universally accepted point of view... So because other options exist, BSA going co-ed leads to the demise of BSA? I don't follow your logic. Why do the other groups even matter if it's your view that allowing girls in at all is so detrimental to the program?

Just want to see if I've got this right... The SM is running a troop that has a lapsed charter, and he refuses to do anything about it (fix the problem or communicate with district at all). He also holds a grudge against you, and seemingly with any other troop around, and that causes concern about transferring the boy elsewhere. Is this all correct? If so, this seems like a council issue to me. Unless the troop can resolve the charter issue or recharter soon, and then fairly quickly set up a new EBOR (assuming the 1st is indeed invalid because of when it took place). This kid shouldn't be stuck in limbo waiting for a charter problem to be resolved and be held at the mercy of an SM who seems reluctant to move this process along at all. I'd seek help with council.

There are multiple scouting organizations in the US today. So in this regard, what the charter set out to do isn't really even in effect anymore.

They want to tear down something that they want to join? I don't think that's their motivation.

Why wouldn't it be the same if the requirements are the same? The name doesn't have to change, either. It's still "Eagle Scout".

I don't think they'll care much. The GSUSA program is pretty different from the BSA program, hence the frequent resistance to the idea that the programs are actually similar and there should be no need for girls to want to join boy scouts or vice versa. The reality is the programs are quite different, and many families will still want the GSUSA program. I would guess that GSUSA knows this and is confident in what they offer. And that it won't hurt them if the BSA opens the doors to girls. I don't think GSUSA would see much impact initially. There will be a number of girls who jump ship if they've wanted a more outdoorsy program, or those who want to pursue Eagle. Overall I think the effect will be much more gradual. Those 1st grade girls interested in scouting will now have a choice, and when presented with a choice before committing to anything, over time more and more will opt for BSA. I think we'll also see a few super-scouts go for a Gold award and an Eagle rank. Some interesting "firsts" to look forward to if this ever happens.

You know, you're ruining my vision of do-si-dos being a small, baked gift handed down to man directly from God, delivered to earth on a glorious chariot flanked by angels.

The Baden-Powell Service Association has a Chipmunk program, comparable to the Lion program in BSA. It's unofficial in BPSA, so parents often create their own methods and structure. They even created an unofficial Chipmunk handbook. They use a Chipmunk patch that is actually a BSA Patrol patch. So if you want a lion patch, maybe look for an existing BSA Lion Patrol patch that you can get for the kids.

She's a dirty liar. The do-si-do is the best cookie they sell. Bland and unoriginal? Blasphemy!

I'm part of "the left", and I wouldn't say that. I don't think you understand what "the left" wants in terms of gun control. We already have gun control, too, so I don't quite understand your statement about "if we had gun co".

Maybe there should be a square knot for some of these other eagle-equivalent ranks. We've got that new Scouting Service Award square knot that is used to recognize several awards into this one square knot. There could be a square knot for international rank recognition, listing approved ranks/programs that the award would cover.

This isn't the whole answer, but maybe part of it: I've heard it said that scouting should not be presented like school subjects. Entirely the opposite whenever possible, in fact. If a leader finds themselves running a unit like a classroom, they need to stop what they're doing and reassess their methods. I saw a video recently that showed how to make a faux campfire ring for indoor use at den meetings. It had small rocks glued around a wooden circle with holes for tea light candles. To me, that's the classroom version of scouting. Often parents try to adapt outdoor ideas to indoor use to make it easier or more time-efficient to quickly pull together a weeknight meeting at someone's house. I get it, it's not always easy to do real adventure. But at the same time, it's not as hard as some might think. I can throw together a real backyard campfire faster than I can make a fake indoor one. If that's not possible in a particular area, there's probably a park nearby, or someplace outdoorsy that will work. I think it starts there. New leaders need to know that the adventure of scouting isn't in a classroom or a living room.

That's not a bad idea, taking a break. Or waiting a year or two to join. Technically a kid really only needs one year (or less) in a pack to earn AOL. Maybe two years in cub scouts really is plenty for many kids.

I've been wondering that as well. Actually I have no doubt it's a promotional event to some extent. I just wonder if it's more promotional than I previously believed. Four uniforms says to me that they're nitpicking every detail of this thing. It has to be more about presentation than anything else. Kids don't really need more than 2. I never had more than one uniform shirt as a kid and kept it presentable through a week of summer camp every year. Didn't get a 2nd uniform until I was an adult.

Guess my council was going off-script back then. I joined in 1st grade and my brother signed up at the same time, when he was in Kindergarten. He was a Tiger, didn't wear a blue uniform shirt, just a simple orange Tiger Scout shirt and orange hat.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong... isn't Lions really just going back to how things were a couple decades ago? In my area, Tigers used to be Kindergarten age.

Reviving an oldie here, hope no one minds... Got a question that comes to mind after reading through this thread: Why do so many councils bundle the Jamboree with other tours and/or activities? With all of the hyped up adventure you see in the Jambo promo videos, one would think that a week at Summit should be more than enough fun. I think I know what the answer is. I'm just hoping maybe someone can give me hope that it's somehow worth it without the added tours.

When I was a kid, I don't think a parent ever came to camp, and during the week of summer camp the rule was one phone call per kid. Which was also sort of a logistic thing because this was pre-cellphone age and we had to hike it up to the camp office and use a pay phone. But it was also to prevent parents from talking to their kids every day. Most of the time, only first-year campers ever wanted to make the hike up to the pay phone. At a recent Webelo/Troop campout, the scouts all went off to do something in the woods. One of the Webelo dads started putting on his coat and we knew where he was headed. Fortunately the SM persuaded him to hang out in the dining hall for a while and let the kids have some time to themselves. Some parents can easily be convinced to leave the kids alone, especially when they learn the beauty of a perfectly quiet dining hall and an endless coffee pot.

It's bug juice if it were made from 100% locally-raised organic fresh-squeezed cage-free bugs.

Inspired by this topic, I spent some time over the weekend looking up various co-ed camp programs. I know, they're not entirely comparable to BSA summer camp, but I was just interested in finding out how common gender-specific camps are and what (if any) argument they gave for being restrictive in terms of gender. First thing that hit me is how much of a bargain BSA summer camp is compared to private camps. Holy moly, $1,600 or more per week?? Wow... Anyway, as it relates to gender, I have to admit I was a bit swayed in my thinking about the benefits of gender-segregated camping. You can definitely pick up on a somewhat different vibe in the segregated camps compared to the co-ed ones. Ultimately I think all kids benefit from and enjoy a quality summer camp experience if the program is good, regardless of gender policy. But especially at the girls' camps, and in reading parent feedback about these camps, I do think girls may be more likely to sort of "cut lose" and truly be themselves among groups of girls. I kind of hate to admit it, since I'm still in favor of a co-ed scouting program, but if I'm being honest I have to recognize that there is for sure a legit argument for the benefits of gender segregation in a camp setting. That said, I still think there is also great benefit to kids learning to better work and camp together amongst the opposite gender. And ultimately I think the BSA will eventually go co-ed regardless of what I or anyone else thinks about it. But I had a bit of an eye-opening experience doing this research, watching videos, and finding out more about all-girls and all-boys camps. One last interesting thing I found: One of the more popular camps here on the east coast actually has 3 separate camps. One all girls, one all boys, and one co-ed. So families really do get a true choice in which environment they prefer. While I think it's great to have a choice, the difference between the BSA and private camp companies is that there is balanced choice in the private camps. Parents aren't choosing a lesser camp experience in favor of gender segregation. And I think that's a key element missing in scouting in the US, the feeling that girls really don't get a choice of an option that is on par with the boys' program. I know this is all sort of random and not always entirely relatable to BSA, but it was interesting none-the-less. If you're as unaware as I was about these private summer camps, I'd suggest checking them out. It's really interesting. And a bit shocking when you start to see pricing. But then less shocking when you see how gorgeous some of these camp facilities are.

By that standard (leaving school stuff to the schools, outdoor focus) we should dump a huge chunk of the program as it is today. Drop all of the Citizenship stuff, Personal Management, Family Life, art, science, etc. I'm not a fan of some of that stuff. I've said it myself over the years that I wish scouts were doing a little less repetition of school subjects, and that it drives me nuts when kids are sitting in a dining hall doing citizenship requirements while there's a whole forest to explore just 30 yards from where they're sitting. That said, I wouldn't take much of it out of the program. In fact, I'm a proponent of adding more stuff to the program, just within the original intent of Scouting to get kids outside. I think Skateboarding should be a merit badge. I don't mind the optional STEM stuff, especially the parts that connect to the outdoors. And although I cringe sometimes when I see kids with their noses in books on scouting trips, I know that citizenship is tied to service, and service is a crucial element of scouting. In a way, I think National Jamboree (or the Jambo promo videos anyway) gives us a glimpse into what National thinks scouting today should look like. It's outdoor-focused, it heavily emphasizes outdoor adventure and excitement, but it also mixes in a tolerable amount of science, book learning, faith, service, etc. Of course it's a glimpse at what scouting looks like when money isn't a concern and every troop can travel monthly to some exciting location or hold their weekly meeting at a skate park or give every kid a mountain bike. But in terms of intent and focus, it does kind of address both the traditional and the modern outdoor elements that many of us would like to see more of in the program. To answer your question, @@Stosh, I think the BSA was right to try adapting to the world. I think they're still trying to adapt, it just gets diluted going from National's lofty ideas, and travels down to the local units where we often have very limited resources and capabilities to implement the vision of scouting that National seems to have. So then I guess it comes down to local, and how creative we can get with trying to be this outdoor-focused program. And if we're being honest with ourselves and really taking a good hard look at what we do on a regular basis, I think we can all say that there is more we can do in the spirit of being that outdoor-focused program. Truly traditional scouting from decades ago was about getting outside, even for meetings. When's the last time any of us attended an outdoor meeting? Why don't Dens/Patrols meet more often in a park, at a nearby camp, or just in someone's backyard? As for the decline in membership, I think we'd have seen that regardless of what route the BSA took. Staying purely traditional (camping, bushcraft, service) would bore the kids out of the program. I really don't see today's kids being enthusiastic about this for very long in an entirely traditional program. If anything, I suspect the decline would be worse if the BSA hadn't tried to make the program seem more exciting and modernized and tried to keep step with the modern world.

I'm going to assume that Noah knows he can seek advice from whoever he wants during the course of the project. What I'm guessing may be the more troubling part of this is that without the permission of the pastor, he might not be able to recognize Mrs. P. as the official mentor and give her the pin at the ECOH. In a way it's almost more problematic to seek her advice but to then not be able to recognizer her for the effort. I'm sure that she, as a dedicated scouter and long-time mentor to other Eagle candidates, wouldn't mind not being recognized. She sounds like the kind of person who does it strictly for the love of scouting and helping the boys. But for Noah, he'd have to let us know how he feels about that and the possibility that even though he could get advice and mentorship from Mrs. P., and probably even invite her to the ECOH, calling her up to get that Mentor pin would surely land him in some hot water with the pastor. It also means that the pastor likely expects him to choose a different mentor, who would be the recipient of the pin and the recognition as Mentor. The end result of the project could be just as good as if Mrs. P. were officially his mentor. He could get the same helpful advice and put it to use in the course of completing the project. It will just be unfortunate that he can't give her due recognition for her help.

I've often been surprised how many units don't have much or any online presence. Or one that was created half a decade ago and never updated. To me it's the most necessary recruiting tool today, with so many parents turning first to the Internet to find information about activities and organizations for their kids. Especially parents new to scouting, who don't know where to look if their kid doesn't happen to come home from school with a flyer. A decent website and/or Facebook page can make it so much easier for a parent to find out about local scout groups and make a quick decision about whether or not it's something they want to explore with their family. And to quickly and easily know who to contact to get involved. At the very least, making it that easy to find the right contact info makes it worthwhile having an online presence. I can tell you that every unit in my town is terrible about online promoting. And it's something that I'm hoping to encourage units to work on and help out with myself.

It's less of a guess knowing that local council investigated and confirmed rank, which in turn confirms a lot of what has been said throughout this discussion.

My guess is that the dysfunctional leadership of that troop felt the need to address a perceived problem with the scouts by creating their demerit system, when the real problem was likely a leadership deficiency all along.