gumbymaster

As for a ringer event ... Well, anyone when meeting someone new want's to put their best foot forward. It's encumbant on the Webelos leaders and parents to follow up with what a more normal event would look like. In my Son's case, he arrived at his decision based on the Troop's recruiting event. They were teaching scout skills, and at a fire building station, my son and one other boy in the den were having great difficulty getting it. Even after most the rest of the webelos and boy Scouts went off to play a game, one of the older Scouts stayed and very patiently worked with him until he got it, and understood why he wasn't getting it before. We have been to troops that were larger, had more activities, were better organized. My Son chose this troop because he felt that he would be lost in the larger group and here they took their time to make sure he got it. So even a promotional event can give you a good idea of what the troop itself would be like. Most of the units we visited did some form of the split thing. Parent want to know about logistics and policy. What are the dues, fundraisers, expectations for attendance, expectations for the parent's, how many scouts make eagle - how do you help them. I've never seen a parent who did not grow up in scouting themselves ask about the degree of boy vs. adult led. The Boys just want to know that they are going to have fun - that it won't be School x2. And just to be sure, we did "drop in" on a Troop meeting a few weeks later - to see what their normal was.

For reasons described elsewhere, I have not done Woodbadge, but I am also not afraid to recommend it to others. For better or worse, my anacdotal experience is that we do not tend to lose Woodbadge trained leaders. They may be drinking the coolaid, and some may look down on those without beads around their neck - but they do stay with the program longer and provide some much needed stability; they disproportionally fill in district volunteer positions. So, as far as inspiring leaders to go out there and do a job (hopefully a good one actually based on their training), as a program it must be doing something right. On-line leader training can impart some of the necessary knowledge; but not the experience - not the perspective of the Scouts they way Woodbadge does. IOLS, if done properly, lets the leaders see some of that perspective, and gain valuable experience in how the scout learns and methods of teaching ... but ideally the Adult leader is not the one who should be doing that teaching. Now I allow that correlation is not causation. The leaders who take Woodbadge may already be more inclined to help Scouting is any way possible, and may be the ones who believe in the program enough to remain when their own kids age out. None-the-less, the comraderie that program inspires is palpable. Could the program be improved - of course, all things can be. What we need to look at is what our our actual needs as a program, and is our training, Woodbadge or otherwise, serving that need; and if not, maybe Woodbadge could ammend their ticket program to look beyond the unit at how, as a Scouter, the candidate can improve the Scouting movement.

I tried to get the pack to adopt them a couple of years ago. I made the 2'x3' blanks, I got poles, made stands. One of the Dens made one, and brought it to the pack meetings, but that was about it. Now to be fair, (after a fashion), our Dens do not meet as often as I think they should, and so the extra time to decide upon and decorate the flag would have negatively impacted the planned den schedule.

Back in the day ... and for all I know they may still do ... We ran a program for 11+ aged youth. It was a week long event for participants. Staff usually met one weekend a month for the 6-9 months before the event. We had an explorer post to cover everyone 14 and up. Boys less than 14 were usually associated with a Troop participating in the event. Girls under 14 (and non Scouts) were registered into a Campfire unit. Then they ran the event. I'm not necessarily advocating this as a means of sneaking girls into to the Boy Scout program ... mearly as a way that some of the membership and logistic problems were addressed.

The Tourniquets in use in the field today are very different than the common notion of a twisted swath of cloth. The DoD spent a lot of money to develop a Tourniquet that would serve the function of reduced blood flow without the same degree of damage to the limb. Unless you have and know how to use these devices, the prior guidance on tourniquet use should remain.

In my youth, it was the tradition of my troop that the Scout planned his own court of honor. After all, a scout's career will be very different than that of his fellows - OA, venturing, camp staff ... the types of adventures that defined THEIR eagle journey. The Scout worked with the SPL for the troop to run flags; they worked with their parents to work out a budget and the type of refreshments they would do. The scout would generally select a few speakers (Scoutmasters, School Teachers, OA/Crew advisors, Scout peers) to describe their journey from the eyes of others. Maybe a slide show during the presentation, usually a display table / picture album before the ceremony and during the reception. My Scoutmaster, in addition to his own speach, and reading the congratualtory letters received, made some unexpected presentations, and lined up a suprise speaker for some quick words. Leon Pinetta in my case, when he was still only a local congressman. Ending the ceremony with the Scout's own words about their journey, what they learned, what it means to them to make this achievement. The Scout is the one that really knows what was important to him, and with each ceremony being very personal, it doesn't get old if I troop has more than a few in short order. Although traditionally men do not have a big role in wedding planning, and this isn't usually quite that elaborate, the spirit of organizing the ceremony and reception was very much the same - as is the skills learned by the boy (still boy led learning). Most people don't like to organize their own accolades, and it definately puts them well outside their comfort level. However, they walk away from this knowing they could even organize a conference, speach or similar event if they needed or wanted to. And finally, Congratulations for you both.

Swimming is a good example. If the requirement is to demonstrate, I would view that as having to demonstrate that to the MBC. I am all in favor of allowing a scout knowledgeable in the subject matter to "test out" and just show, demonstrate, discuss, etc. with the MBC to complete the requirements. These Scouts do not need the (maybe) prepared course of instruction that the MBC has, and as the MBC cannot make knowledge of the extra materials they teach a condition of earning the MB, this should not be a problem. I also have no problem with an MBC putting together a quality instructional program (ideally a combination of learning and doing) for a small group of Scouts. That course may be designed to inspire interest in the subject matter that goes beyond the merit badge requirements. But in the end, the MBC needs to mark completions or partials based on the requirements of the badge not the extra materials. As for the flexibility in the expectations, based on age and maturity of the Scout; that's a tougher call. When I took swimming the first time, my Counselor (not summer camp) did not think that one of my strokes was "strong enough". Did I do it? I think so, but did it meet his subjective expectations? clearly not. Even today, with the given rules, I do not know what the right answer should have been - I did do it after all. In the end I tried again some time later and did fine. 35 years later, I still remember that event, and for better or worse, I've been challenged to come back and try harder, and did. I could just as easily see it going the other way and discouraging someone.

I think I am with krampus on this one. 1. While the religeon followed by many of you here may associate that type of image with a devil or other ungodly demon. MANY other religeons in the world do not, and in fact, some may revere similar figures. 2. the Krampus (the traditional one, not the forum member) is a long standing tradition in the culture of germanic tribes of europe - as old or older than Santa Claus / St. Nicholas, and a lot less (currently) culturally insensitive than the Dutch tradition of Black Pete who serves a similar role. If anything it would serve as a reminder of the consequences of not being on one's best behavior. 3. As adults, is picking on someone's avatar really worth it? While some may try to claim that the insensitivity to their religeons makes the choice against the scouting laws of "kind, courteous, and reverent"; aren't some of you equally violating these same laws in your "demands" for him to change it? 4. Youth members, while they may, and do discover these forums, if that avatar is the most offensive and unscoutlike thing they can find on these forums (It's not), then I wouldn't be worried. Those old enough to be here and not be so bored with the discussion topics to remain probably have the maturity to deal with the real world issues of differing opinions. 5. Younger scouts are probably already very familiar with the krampus (more so than many on this forum), as the Disney Channel's Phineous and Ferb cartoon did a whole show on the Kramups, and it's meaning - to great comic effect. 6. Finally, Although I cannot find it at the moment, I thought when I joined the forum there were some guidlines on acceptable avatars, usernames, etc. If the members of the forum need to petition the site operator and moderators for a change in that policy, by all means do so; but given their absence in taking a stand on this, I would conclude that it does not violate those policies, and thus we should all really let this subject drop.

I'd kind of like to think of it as like that undercover boss show. Where the guy at the top gets into the trenches to see how things really go.

Although it is a technicality, the entire tax code is a collection of technicalities. If you are not in the "businsess" of shoveling walks, and you do it without any expectation of renumeration, then the $10 he give you can be considered a gift, which as long as you do not receive more than, I think it's $13,000 this year, from him in the year - it can be considered tax free. On the other side of the coin, if I pay the local boys to mow my lawn - unless they have incorporated or otherwise structured as a formal business, if I pay them more that $600 in the year, I have to file a 1099 to document that I have paid them and potentiially withhold taxes (and pay them) on their behalf. I doubt most people even know about that, much less do it.

Why Don't we do that? Our professional Scouters work for us, not for themselves. I think it would be a great idea if we made it part of the job requirments that each month the council executive / ceo go on an outdoor activity with one of the troops from the council. See how it is really done. What boys are really like. What resources our leaders really have available. How well (or not) is our Boy led program going. Mix it up with different troop sizes, locations served, types of activities. Who really selects Council executives anyway? Is it the membership, or the corporate sponsors board of directors? How can we get this to be a part of the program? In the nine years I worked on Summer Camp Staff, the CE would only come to camp for one day - the day of the national inspections, to walk along with the inspectors - they were usually out of camp before dinner (Although in case they weren't the quality of food that day was much better).

For me, it's almost an opposite problem. About half my pack come from a single school - the one we meet at (rented space). About a quarter go to an elementary school that has their own "associated" pack. (Our school district has some interesting dividing lines for school assignments; and many of the families at the second school are friends of families at the first.) The pack runs a JSN at "our" school. In general, the pack committee is comfortable with the current pack size (45-55 boys) There are not many other options in the nearby area, one recently folded - so the area is very underserved. I personally do not want to see a boy miss the opportunity for scouting simply because they went to the "wrong" school, so I help the district with JSNs at schools near our pack, and I go out of my way to encourage some of the other (kind of) nearby packs to join. My son and I missed his Tiger year because "his" school did not have an associated pack and district recruiting efforts were dismal. When I present, I am very open about the fact that "my" pack may not meet their schedule; and if so, I've got the information for most of the packs within 10 miles or so, and gladly share it. I also keep this information on me when I am out in the community (fair, etc), and help families find their best fit. I'm just happy to see a boy find scouting, it doesn't have to be my pack.

I don't think that those that were up in arms about the change because of the level of effort, but rather the level of committment. While a Scout can join at any age appropriate time; with the old Webelos program being 12-18+ months; the leaders more so than the scouts have a perception of it being wrong that a boy coming in right at the end and in six months, with no prior scouting, the boy can get the coveted arrow of light (an award that they can continue to acknowledge into their adult scouter years with a knot). To them is was like allowing someone to earn an eagle award, just by doing a couple of merit badges; and not by years of learning and growing in the unit. The original goal for this was so that we did not discoruage 5th graders from joining (and thus becoming potential boy scouts) by not having something they could earn; but even that goal was lost when they put back the 6 month active reqirement (i.e. ok, you can earn AOL, but only if we recruit you by September/October), once again, no motivation to a 5th grader joining later. My personal preference would have been that AOL would stil require earning the Webelos Badge first, but that a 5th grade student could still go back and earn the Webelos badge (like the old system). In the end, very few of the Scouts actually put all this together (to be angry with the change), they are usually just happy to have another friend in the den.

Thank you for volunteering. Thank you for recognizing the problem. Thank you for trying to find a solution. Your pack should have a unit commissioner. Check with your council to find out who it is. While they do not have any authority to implement change, they will probably be your best resource for guidance on how to go forward. First and foremost, ask yourself the following questions: 1. How far am I willing to go to solve these probelms (would you be the cumbaster or committee chair instead of a den leader?) 2. Are there any other parents willing to step up and be leaders if the process does change? Changing a long standing system, correct or otherwise, will only lead to the end of the unit if there is no one around to actually implement the system. 3. How good a salesman are you. Can you lay out a vision and get (some of) these people on board? 4. How much "drama" and internal politics can you take? If after asking yourself these questions, if you still want to go forward ... It all starts with the chartering organization. Do you know who they are, can you start a relationship with them and discuss (maybe with the support of a unit commissioner, or district executive) what you think the problems are and what you would propose as a path to the solution. The chartering organizations representative is the only person who can change/appoint the leaders of the pack, and they do not need a reason to make the change - they can just do it. Make no mistake, if the current leadership is not willing to change they way they do things, and you choose to go forward - you are essentially starting a coup. You may win, you may not. If you are able to get restructuring in place, you will need to meet with your parents, they will need to accept responsibilities and understand that if they've been around, the old way is no longer good enough. If you don't have the stomach for a revolution (and I don't think I would), you could leave - and that may be the best choice for your son and your sanity. Maybe you could let the recruited parents know what they are doing and invite them to go with you. Again, this won't make many friends, but at least you wont have to deal with it long (unless you live in a really small town). Alternatively, if most the new recruits are in your den, or mayby yours and one other, get the other den leader(s) for the recruited boys on board with doing it right. Have them go to roundtable with you, do training, etc. Lead by example. It's a slower process, but within a couple of years, the parents will be used to doing in the right way, and the pack will improve. --- I thank every day that I have had several years in a Pack without any of the disfuctional drama stories I find on this forum. I love my leaders - they do a great job.

I am very sorry for your famiy's loss. I always valued her comments and advice here on the forum. ---- I lost a Scouting mentor a few years ago, and we held a memorial service for him at the camp he loved. This was secondary to the service the family held where he lived. We used the camp chapel (which was particularly appropriate as he had led services there for summer camp for 30+ years). Scouts young and old were invited to speak to how he influenced their lives. We ran a slide show capturing his years of service to scouting. It was a very nice way to say goodby to an old scouter.

This what was we had for summer camp staff. I've probably spent two years of my life living in a Baker tent. For my Scout Troop - we lived in 3 man dome tents (with 2 per tent). This was in the Bay Area of California, with most camping between Redding and San Luis Obispo.

Well, there are quite a few issues here, and clearly any of us here on the forum can only give general advice, as we will miss some of the specifics of your situation. First, Thank you for being a volunteer. BALOO and the other training you have taken has certianly taken much of your time, so as a Scouter, I thank you for that. Second, other than as the BALOO parent, If you specified that you have a specific role in the Pack, I missed it. The other parent may not realize the importance of the BALOO training to the unit, nor your role in leadership for the camping event. Thus she may have through she was talking parent to parent. While I personally welcome any adult who non-physically helps to correct my Children's actions when I am busy with pack or district things; I know most parents are not as generous and become defensive. Being a formal pack leader may have provided more credibility to your leadership role - or maybe not. Third, If it had been easy to do so, it might have been a good idea to send the Scout to mom with the direction to explain why he needed to stay with mom. Her son is a Tiger cub, and for reasons like this, we ask adult partners and their Tiger Den scouts to stay together at all times when on a Scout activity. Is 40 to 20 yards staying together - normally I would think so, but in this case it does not seem to have been close enough. Fourth - as a safety issue, I do not think you were out of line. This was not as simple as the scout not listening to you the implicationns for injury or damage were real. We (although you may not be) are unaware of any other mitigating circumstances this Scout may have (ADHD, or other issues, etc.), so this behavior may not be out of character for him, and while Mom knows that and as a defense mechanism has given him a lot of latitude when she thinks she can; this was not one of those cases and the mom may need to better understand it. To answer the original question - no 6 year old, Tiger Scouts are pretty normal. The age and maturity is why we ask that parents are their adult partners for these types of activities. In my pack, my general experience has been that, on the whole, the 6 year old tigers are consistently better behaved than my 9-10 year old Webelos. As long as the Scout was within eyesite of the Adults, having him sit by himself was probably a good idea, but I probably would have immediately went to the Mom to let her know where her child was, and why. By going to her first, before her son went to her, you might have even been able to get her support. As the cubmaster for my pack, I could not always be right there or stop what I was doing if my son was misbehaving (and he would - boys are boys). I made it clear to the other leaders (and my son) that I would support them if they needed to give him a time out. As long as it was not physical and was in view of others - I did not have a problem with that. This is a great place to vent. Better to us with our words of encouragement than to the Scout or his mom, creating drama in the unit.

I can't say I disagree. I am normally pretty good about peeking ahead into the syllabus before I take courses in this case I did not - so I didn't go in with a frame of reference for what OWL should have done, in this case I was only looking for the BALOO. The vast majority of which was stuff I already knew from my own Scouting.

The OWLs training component added about an extra hour to my BALOO course. By IOLS was all about every outdoor component of the Scout->First Class Rank Requirement Skiils. While the Webelos do work on Scout Skills; the IOLS, at least in my course, focus really would not work for Cubs, and you would still need some extra training on the neuances of Webelos vs. Boy Scouts if combined.

OK, I'm not a CPA but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night (ok, not really) As I understand it ... (largely based on interpretation of Bad Wolf's unit's former IRS accountant) ISAs - for example a virtual account for each scout maintained by the troop is fine. Scouts / Parents deposting personal funds (check/cash) into the ISA for the scout to later use for activities and events (also ok) Troop sells a widget as a fundraiser. Troop makes $5/widget and puts $2 of that into the Scout ISA and $3 into the general fund (does not pass the IRS litmus test - individual level of effort differentiates the contributions to the ISA) Troop sells widget as a fundraiser and makes a total of $1000. $400 is evenly divided between all the scouts of the troop and credited to their ISAs the rest to the Troop general fund. (Probably passes the rule as long as Scouts cannot withdraw more from the ISA than the personal funds contributed if they leave and other funds are restricted to a scouting purpose - remaining amount goes to the troop) Troop sells widget as above and the $400 is evenly divided only among the scouts participating in the fundraiser. (more questionable, but seems to pass the rules) All numbers are arbitrary and do not represent thresholds of actual values that make things allowable or disallowed. In all cases, a departing scout cannot cash out anything more than what they personally contributed. Scouts cannot transfer ISAs to other units if they transfer. There are restictions on use of the raised funds (camp fees, activity costs, maybe camping equipment or uniforming) and a mechanism to verify validity of of any reimbursements for stuff outside the unit. --- Key things to remember: even if you talked to an actual IRS agent for guidance (1) prove it (2) IRS agents are not liable for misinformation they provide a taxpayer and that does not excuse you from the due funds (but it might get you out of interest and penalties if you have the guidance in writing). I'm not an Attorney or a CPA, but I do run the books for several companies and a non-profit. This advice is only as good as any other advice from the internet (i.e. worthless), consult the appropriate experts if the answer really matters.

It sounds like you have a lot of good ideas and a lot of energy. You certianly seem to have a lot of talent at recruiting. Maybe you should consider, for next year, starting a new pack and then, as they get older a new troop. The DE should be more than happy to help you find a chartered organization, and it sounds like you could very quickly put a strong unit together - as long as you remember not to do everything yourself (or just you and the husband). Make use of the new parents you recruit.

Yeah, my co-workers won't let me dive (them) to functions if they can help it, I'm too slow (compliant). My wife has learned to live with it, if it's my car; but is always ready to take over if I "need her to drive" (hopefully asked).

Technically, they don't HAVE to work on the new program, they just CAN'T work from the old program. If the Scout and his family do not care about Advacement or the AOL rank, there really is no problem, and the boy can do any of the activities the rest of his den are doing. If you really want to be a stickler for the rules, your single AOL Webelos, CANNOT be a den. (I forget if it is three or four members required). So in the realm of between a rock and a hard place, some rule has to be bent if the Scout is to participate fully. In the end it needs to come down to what is best for the scout(s), that fits our safety guidelines. There cannot be absolutes because one rule will often conflict with another and someone has to prioritize which one wins. We all do our best, and I think that you have done so. Go forward with a clear conscience. It is always the battles where we know we were in the right but still cannot win that most stick in our craw. Do what you can to learn from the experience, and figure out a path to improve or avoid the issue in the future. Neither BALOO nor OWLS is REQUIRED to take Webelos camping. BALOO is required only for Pack camping, both are recommended to Webelos camping. My IOLS and OWLS were very diffrent skills and goals.

I had my own made. I found the right kahki fabric for the background (1/4 yd @ ~$10/yd). Made an image document (photoshop, paint dot net), created borders (white) with red lettering (relatively easy to read font), a small fleur-di-lis followed by the name (modeled the size and shape of an interpreter's strip), and then used "image to sewing machine" conversion software (free 30 day trial) to create saf, dst, and jef format files, took it down to a local sewing and embroidery shop, and had them use their equipment to auto stich them on the fabric (not sure which of the formats they ended up using). It was about $20 for a 4"x4" square with ~2000 stiches and I made 4 tags (two for me, two for my son). I probably could have gotten 6 or 8 tags in that space for barely more $, or I should have made it a little taller and less crowded to be more readable at a distance). If someone has an auto embrodery brother sewing machine (~$300), those can take the jef file (I think it was) directly.

In my troop, in the early 80's we were expected to turn the collar under if we were wearing the neckerchief (which was generally what was expected), and leave it out if we did not have a neckerchief. I'm not sure when that changed, I'll have to look at old pictures when I get home, but I think that before I aged out, wearing the collars over the neckerchiefs became the norm. (Maybe parents got tired of ring around both sides of the collar)