gumbymaster

@@Eagle94-A1, How long ago was your last NCS? Usually that certification is good for five years.

Considering that it takes 3+ years from application to approval for an uncontested patent, they would be unlikely to achieve that time line before turning 18. I guess it's good that the requirements are different for Inventing MB.

In general, I would be much more comfortable with this approach as well. Ok I've got to pay W if we want Boy's Life, X to the BSA organization (for registration), Y to the Council (for organization), and Z to the Troop (for Program/awards/etc.) - but as one annual fee to the troop. Or as an alternative, add that cost as a franchise fee to the Chartered Org. - Then let the Chartered org decide if that gets passed down. They at least get to vote on some of the Council operations - let them have some skin in the game. (Although overall I think I like the first approach better). One of the challeneges with both these approaches is Chartered Orgs like the LDS that pay all the fees and regisrtation on the Scout's behalf and don't pass that to the parents - it would be pulling a lot of additional money from them. All that said, I'd still like to see a real disclosure of how funds are spent. How much actually goes to Salaries, how much are we really paying for the CE? What is the rent, etc. and maintainence on the Council office and Camp(s)? How much does the Council subsidize (if any) the training, roundtables, and promotional programs? How much is going to an endowment and/or rainy day fund?

Not incapable. But I do have two anacdotal/experiential frames of reference for my comment. 1. Being in a Co-Ed explorer post focsed on leadership development training (running a NYLT equivalent) and using the patrol method ... a. The boys (NYLT campers) are a little smitten for the first couple of days with the Female Counselors (on ave. 2-3 years older) or fellow troop/patrol members. Several of the girls are likewise smitten. b. By the end of the week is is a non issues for most (other than the relatively few that think they have a summer romance - usually restricted to exchanging contact info for later) c. For the post members/staff it is also a non issue for most (although there are a few parings - even several marriages, no obvious PDAs) 2. Summer Camp Staff. (histoic ratio: about 30-40 staff members, about 6 over 30 years old, 4-6 females) a. The boy campers were always very smitten with the 14-30 year old Female Staff members. b. Historically, almost all the high school/college aged female staff members that were not in a committed relationship before camp did become paired to some degree with one of the similarly aged male staff members. Again, I'm not impling that things will happen - with the proper application of YPT and other co-ed measures; just that in the short term (i.e. when you actually ask the boys/vote/etc.) they might be in favor of in the hope or fantasy of what might/could happen rather than the reality of what does happen.

It sounds like these boys are going to have a lot of fun.

Be careful what you ask for @@Stosh, I would not be surprised if more than a few Boy Scouts would love to have the Girls join the troop and be on their events and activities with them ... even if it was for the 'wrong' reasons.

Out of this whole conversation, I think the part that bothered me the most was the tradition of inducting an active parent with their child. Ok, as a youth, I was elected by my peers for membership. Is it really different for Adults? Or is this just a fancy way of electioneering to induct the parent? That said, I've had a love-hate relationship with the OA my whole Scout career. As a Youth, I was honestly surprised to be elected, and honored to join. We did a lot of off-season service projects to help improve and fix up the summer camp. My Troop actually never went to our Council camp, so I joined the OA lodge for the nearby Council whose camp we did go to. My co-ed explorer post didn't particpate with OA because at the time (maybe still, I'm not really sure), the female youth members were not eligible. As the Summer Camp's program director, I was frustrated that, during camp, the local OA (youth) leadership, could never muster enough participation to even complete a Scout Law trail (a tradition for the closing Campfire was a trail walk where every 20-30 yards was a plaque or post for a point of the scout law and an arrowman reading the full definition of that point by candle light over and over as the campers waled past.), much less in-camp service projects. Sometimes, they couldn't even muster an election and/or induction team for those units that qualified. They were able to stage a dance team (sorry, I forget the exact term) event. As an adult cub leader - the OA has been very helpful in our arrow of light ceremonies each year. As an adult Scouter, I've honestly had too many other things going on to attend the chapter meetings - which until recently were at the same time as Roundtable. I have seen them supporting some of the District run events and parts of the Scouting for Food drive that we do. Also, as an adult, I think I would feel almost out of place just hanging out with the Youth OA members, and I already have too many Scout jobs to take on Advisor responsibilities as well. As for purpose, I had always understood that Service was their big claim, but in practice, it seems intended as a way to keep some of the older boys involved in Scouting. In theory, they are supposed to reamin active with their Troops, but I have seen some get so involved in OA stuff, that they really didn't participate much with the Troop, so that's harder to see in practice.

To keep repeating an action and expect a different result is the definition of insanity. In my mind, if the Scout should be allowed to return, something should be different ... this could be a lot of things 1. Maybe the Scout has matured a little over this time 2. Maybe the Scout really wants to be with his friends, and now understanding the consequences of his behavior is willing to change 3. Maybe factors at home have changed (either for better or worse) in a way that this means more to that Scout now than before 4. Maybe the Scout has gotten some professional counseling or had their medications (added/removed/changed). 5. Maybe something else ... Without talking with the Scout about their reasons for wanting to come back, really talking (this should be one of the most intense SM Conferences that you ever have), you may not know. 1. Does the Scout recognize the inappropriateness of his prior behavior? 1a. Was there a reason for the prior behavior? 2. Is he willing to agree to a behavior plan that you, the parents, and he all agree to? 2a. Will you be able to follow through on your committments in that behavior plan? 3. What does the Scout want to get out of being in the Troop? If after all that, you feel it might be appropriate to let them back ... 1. What is the general feeling of the Committee and the other Adult leadership? 1a. Are they willing to help follow through on the behavior plan? 2. Finally, what would be the feelings of the Troop in general, would they be willing to give him that second chance? You don't want one of the mass resignation events as described above. You may not be able to go into detail to the Troop members about why things will be different, will they trust that you have a plan in place? Can you speak for the Scouts? If there were any prior specific instances of conflict and the other party is still there, how will they feel, can they be motivated to allow a second chance? We all want the best for the boys, that's why we are here. We also cannot let what might be best for one boy ruin the experience for many more. Very few of us are professionally trained, and those of us who are battle trained may not always recognize the differences between one situation and the next. We do the best we can. As long as we are fair and transparent in our dealings with everyone involved, we can hope that while we may not achieve the best possible result, that we achive an acceptable one.

I don't really know the numbers of boys you are talking about; however, one approach that we considered simply because the den was too large, was to let a single den be organized as two patrols. There are things they can do together, there are things they can do as friendly competition, there may be things they do separately - as long as there is sufficient qualified leadership. Like your pack, our Webelos usually split into one of two Troops, and for at least 2/3 of them, which one has been determined long ago by parent involvement and siblings. But for that last 1/3, they still like the resposibility of being able to make the choice.

My Son's troop ... (16-20 active boys, only 3 or 4 above first class, intermittent frequency 6-9 month terms) A position was called Boys who were interested in the position got ~ 1 minute to speak in front of the Troop ... why they wanted the position, why the troop should elect them, etc., and then the troop made a quick vote and tally. All positions were elected, and not necessarily in the most logical order. When I was a youth ... (40-60 active boys, good mix of ranks, 6 month terms) The week before, Scouts interested in SPL would get to make their case. The election was held at the start of the next meeting, and over the course of a normal meeting, the new SPL talked with and selected the rest of his leadership team (2 ASPLs - indoor and outdoor program, a Scribe, the Troop QM, sometimes a Librarian or Historian, maybe additional positions, not usually). Once the new leadership corps had been determined; scouts requesting a patrol transfer were reviewed. Near the end of the meeting, the "new" patrols were announced, and in patrol corners, those interested in patrol leadership were able to make their case. Patrol Leader elections were held at the next meeting - patrols worked out for themselves if they elected or appointed the other patrol leadership positions. In general, it just needs to be a process which the youth members take ownership of, believe to be generally fair, and which in the long term provide opportunities for leadership for those who want/need them.

If this were true, then any Council that actually cared about their camps, etc. should look to incorporating the camps into a legally distinct entity from the council and then some long term lease back to the council. And for that to be implemented before the bylaw change. The hard part of this assessment if it went through is: 1. Would the National generally use this power to keep Councils from selling camps, (or alternately require a kickback to approve it's sale?) or 2. Would National generally go about selling lots of underperforming camps (or camps belonging to non-compliant councils) in order to steer greater attendance at more successful camps and/or national bases. In effect consolidating - even if that ment a longer drive to camp for many scouts? After all, the camps my Council operate are only about 2 hours from Summit, let's close those and see a Summit program grow.

@@Stosh Every once in a while (ok, fairly often) you give me some real food for thought. The kind of head-slap why didn't I think of that. My Son's troop is having a devil of a time getting some (committee/parents) tasked with organizing some of the fund raising events, and here you go and describe a (extra challenged) scout running your popcorn sales. I tip my hat to you. Each time I think I have a handle on boy-led, you push it one further.

No offense taken. It's not the first time that the words that I come up with have more meaning than I intend. At least at work I have a technical writer to double check me.

Oh well, back to YPT for me I guess.

In our area, many of our parents have long commutes. So our gathering starts and 7:15 and I try to end by 8:30. Unless it is a special occasion like the Webelos bridging, we don't do snacks, as most of our Scouts go to bed right after the meeting and we don't want to hype them up. Our den meetings generally have a similar time frame. The planned start and stop times are ok with our parents, but I will hear about it if I run too much over. Many of our Scouts are in a Karate program (on different nights) with their classes usually from 7 to 8.

Kids are pretty resiliant. If he is earing something, but maybe just not as much as some others in the den, I wouldn't worry about it in the least. Otherwise, If you have a chance, before the meeting, you can talk with the Scout and his parents. Manage their expectations. "Billy, I know you didn't have a chance to complete the xxx award that the others will be receving tonight. I want to make sure that you and your parents both know that you can finish that award at any time you like, and when you do, let me know and we'll make sure you get it at the next meeting."

In my youth, the District Camporees had the competitions set up for Patrols (if the Troop could field one or two full patrols). My Troop never had a problem with fielding 4-7 patrols. Even our leadership corps was organized as their own patrol. Some other Troops had to make temporary patrols by combining what they had. For us, being able to field full patrols, and that our competition was more about how we did against the other patrols in our Troop - and much less about how we compared to the other units in the district was probably a significant contributor in how well we did. I do remember one year (the pride is actually burned into my brain), they had to add a fifth place award, just so at least one other Troop's patrol received recognition. I didn't see other Troop setups so much at that age, so I don't know if their camping and cooking was patrol or troop - ours was definately patrol based. Even when crowded into a relatively small camping area, our patrols areas were distinct. Probably only the campfire ring was common for the Troop. While our Adults were not 300' away, they too were organized as an (example) patrol and did their own cooking, etc. This is one advantage of the combination of Chuck boxes and footlockers we used for patrol gear ... the patrol could set up their own footprint fairly easily.

Historically, the baggie approach is that you call up a boy, hand him a bag of awards and say "here are your awards". In short, you recognize the Scout but not the (qualntity and quality of) achievements. The Baggie itself is not the problem, and even the Scout leader guides recommends the use of it or a similar item to organize and track the awards for each Scout. The key is to make sure that each Scout gets recognized for each achievement.

The (non-staff) Phases were a week long summer camp. Almost everyone who did the program (typically 120-180 youth across all three phases), did this in addition to their Troop's summer camp. The program was co-ed, so I don't know about the girl scouts and camp fire participants. It was usually run near the end of the summer - late August. The program rented a Council camp that had been closed for the season, and set up their own operation. All three phases occurred at the same time - so essentially it was like three full troops operating at a summer camp. They ran independent programs. There was some additional support staff (usually Adults/Staff Parents) that ran the Kitchen (distributing food to the patrols for in-camp cooking), the Quartermaster, First Aid, and The Waterfront/Pool (each troop/phase usually had about 1hr per day at the water). Other than closing ceremonies, the Troops/Phases almost never interacted. In fact, phase 3 usually spent most their time hiking in to the main camp. The staff was fully volunteer, so the costs only covered that of the foods, equipment wear and tear, and camp rental - it was typically about 1/2 to 2/3 the cost of regular summer camp.

One of the things I really liked about the youth leader program I attended as a Scout was it was divided into levels. The first year was "Phase 1, Patrol Member Development". Scouts 11-12, were taught how to be good members of a group. They learned core Camping skills, and were exposed to peer-to-peer teaching, and various leadership and communication skills. Staff members acted as the Patrol Leader for the group. The second year was "Phase 2, Patrol Leader Development". Scouts 12-13, were broken into patrols, each member was the patrol leader for a day, and charged with coordinating all the tasks the patrol needed to complete that day. Staff members were patrol guides (more on that later). The third year was "Phase 3, Troop Leader Development". Scouts 13-14, were still divided into patrols, each patrol had one or more days as the Leadership Corps for the Troop. There was a lot of emphasis on Communication Skills, Leadership styles, Peer-Counseling - taught in the context of Scout skills and other hurdles. Phase 3 was mostly/generally, but not always, taught on the trail, taking a 20+ mile hike over several days with the remainder of the week back at the main camp. In fact, check-in for phase 3 was usually well before the camp, and they spent the next 3-4 days hiking in. The fourth phase was to come back and act as the Staff for Phase 1. Explorers, 14-15 returned to act as the patrol leaders (or SPL) for phase 1. Staff would typically meet one weekend a month for the 9 months prior to camp to warm up their teaching and communication skills, and to decide on the activity plan for the week of camp. The fifth phase was staff for Phase 2. Explorers were typically 15-16 and would act as the Leadership corps and patrol guides for the Patrol Leader development level. As with Phase 4, they would meet monthly before the camp to plan their activity schedule and how they planned to teach Scout skills, Leadership styles, and Communication skills. The sixth year was Staff for Phase 3. Explorers aged 16-17. Here they acted more like Scoutmasters, guiding the Leadership corps, and teaching Leadership styles and Communication skills. While Scout skills were used as the mechanism for teaching, the staff did not teach those skills, but had the Phase 3 candidates teach each other using the leadership methods taught. Phases seven through nine were the adult leadership for Phases 1-3/4-6 respectively. Their role varied greatly in how much they had to teach to the staff (phases 4-6) vs. allowing the staff to teach each other. By the time of the actual camp, In Phase 1-2/4-5/7-8 they were the Scoutmasters, by Level 3/6/9, you hardly knew they were around. Depending on the attendant's age, it was not unusual for someone to go 1 .. 2 .. 4 .. 3 .. 5 .. 6 instead. Several councils accepted attendance at this program (Phase 2 or 3) in lieu of JLT or TLT as those programs were called in my time (NYLT now). Although the staff changed every year, because of the youth to youth teaching, access to historical training materials, the ready availability to contact the prior staff, and how experience of teaching passed down from year to year, the way materials were taught would vary greatly, but the quality of the teaching was remarkably consistent. The national JLT/NYLT programs drew heavily on this program in developing some of their original materials. The case can also be made that Phases 7-9 substitute for, and are more intense, than Woodbadge. In fact, Wood badge 2 derived a lot of their materials from this program (and yes, I realize there is a lot of animosity about that for those in the know - for fairness I reference: http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/9495-if-edge-is-badwrongpoor-how-do-you-teach-youth-to-teac/page-3?do=findComment&comment=305744;However, my personal experience is that while I agree that the competencies of leadership were academic, the method of teaching was very practical and scoutcraft oriented, and I have been able to very practically apply those competencies both in Scouts and in my real-world life; and most Troops I know/knew that send youth to this program are very boy led). I'm on the other coast now, so I have not been to the program in several years, they are still serving many youth. If you have an unit anywhere near California and Nevada, I strongly recommend looking into it. http://www.whitestag.org/

As for the Skits or Songs and other activities ... I usually have a couple of "back pocket" skits that require almost no time to practice, especially ones that can have varying numbers of people, and the Scouts have a lot of fun doing them (invisible bench, CPR, pulling rope and other run-ons). I also always have one or two songs that I know by heart that can cover a dead space; if it's a repeat song, I can still call up the responsible den to "help" me lead the song. http://www.macscouter.com/Skits/ Our Camping coordinator, for skits on the campouts, has a bunch of skit idea cards in a bag, and has the scouts pull one out with one minute to learn the sketch before doing it. He called it skit ninja, and it's a big hit with the Scouts. Each pack meeting we usually ask one den to have a skit, one den to have a song, another den does the flags, etc. This distribution of the tasks gets each den a chance for each activity, but not where they need to spend each den meeting planning the next pack meeting's skit, etc. For Awards ... In our pack, I usually call up a den leader to present the awards earned by their den. If the boy has earned a lot of awards, we will probably hand a baggie of the awards to the boy, but we do call out each award earned. If there aren't too many boys and/or awards earned, we'll usually ask the Scout to say one think they learned while working on that award. We always try to make each rank award a big presentation, matching the theme of the pack meeting, and involving the parents of the Scout. The pack meeting plans ... http://www.scouting.org/Home/CubScouts/Leaders/CubmasterResources/PackMeetingPlans.aspx are also a helpful resource on ideas for presenting ranks and other advancements. The Baloo's Bugle http://usscouts.org/bbugle.asp also has ideas for advancement ceremonies, award presentations, games, etc. Finally, if you can, attend your District (or a nearby district's) Roundtable. These leader training meetings are often run like a mini pack meeting, presenting materials from the recommended theme for the next month (i.e. October's Roundtable will present ideas for a November meeting). They will often include songs and sketches that can be adopted into your pack meeting. The roundtable is not just for you, but for any of your den leaders, committee members, and parents you may be looking to recruit. Good luck and thank you for your service.

Moderator's Edit: See this thread instead: http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/27761-roles-of-professional-scouters/

@@ProScouter06, I don't sign the President's paycheck either, but the common conception is that the President (is supposed to) work for the citizenry. Similarly, the Professional Scouting staff is supposed to serve at the will of the membership; although in practice, I don't think a membership mechanism exists to remove them. Now, don't get me wrong; almost all of the Professional Scouters I have worked with have, at the very least, had their hearts in the right place; the only exceptions being when I was a Program/Camp director and directly interacted with the Council Exec and Assistant in a Council that no longer exists - they seemed to be looking for every possible angle to sell a camp and pocket a bonus. I do not doubt that the Professionals have a lot to do. I do not propose "overtime" weekend camping,at least not as such. When my staff has to work a weekend, they get other time off. But I cannot believe that the overall scouting program and experience would be better if the higher levels of the professional staff, by design and contract, needed to have more direct contacts with the units, volunteers, and Scouts that they were hired to serve. How much more time would the professionals have if they weren't always chasing donations? It seems, as an outsider to professional service, that most of the professional's time is spent trying to get their own payroll covered. I have yet to see an actual true breakdown of the "administration costs" for running the council, and how much of the various donations get lost in that bucket.

Registration CAN be done online through the Be-A-Scout system; however most units (mine included) have either not turned on or otherwise disabled that functionality. Our council ran training on the system two or three years ago. The reasons are that (1) The online system can only collect the national dues, not the dues set by the pack/troop/crew - so this creates confusion; It also does not have the ability to accomodate units that pay for their adult registrations (2) All three members of the Key-Three have to use the system to validate and authorize adult leader applications; I think only the CM/SM/CA need to validate the member applications. However, for those more concerend about who knows who running around with the SSNs of adult leaders, this is a viable solution. Most units want to have that in-person, face to face before taking and accepting either a youth or adult leader application.

So 'Courteous' doesn't cover that one? We get warned that any leader with a YPT that will expire +/- 2 months of rechartering may get dropped. They put the responsibility of checking the registered leadership on the unit's key 3. They also mail registration cards for my pack directly to the Cub Master, so that too is another check to make sure the leader's registration went through.