Twocubdad

Half the new Scouts showed up from Webelos wearing these things last month. I tried a more subtle approach: I told the new guys the Heelys are fine with me (white lie: I can't stand them) but they are allowed at Scout meetings only with the proper protective gear -- helmet, knee and elbow pads. At the same time I started a backfire with the SPL who had a few older guys mention that Heelys are an elementary school thing and aren't considered cool by the guys in the troop. Week 2: No Heelys!

Having recently been slapped around by the Council advancement committee on this very topic (another long, long story) this is of interest to me. Our troop instituted an attendance policy last fall largely in response to several older Scouts who seemed to be under the impression they had registered as part of the Lone Scout program. Our policy is that to be eligible to advance (yes, we tie attendance to advancement) Scouts must attend 50% of troop meetings and 50% of campouts, each counted separately. Scouts must maintain a similar 70% attendance record if they are in a position of responsibility. As the council advancement chairman told me, "you can't do that. It's absolutely against advancement policy." Well, I don't know about "absolutely." As I told him, the key is how the policy is applied. We use it as a tool to establish our expectation with the Scouts and apply some qualitative measure to what "activly participate" means. A couple points: first, I think 50% is a pretty low standard. A Scout anywhere near 50% attendance isn't likely "actively participating" by any measure. Secondly, we try to be reasonable in our application. A Scout with struggling with problems at home and still at 49% attendance will get the benefit of the doubt. Simiarly, we have a Life Scout a few merit badge requirement away from Eagle who was accepted at the state High School for Math and Technology. We basically put his attendance record on hold. Lastly, we figure the averages on a rolling basis. If you play football and miss every meeting and campout for three months, you can bring your average up to passing by having 100% attendance for the next three months. We're not telling kids that if they play football, or sign up for confirmation class or whatever that they have to drop out of Scouts. All we're saying is that you need to put off advancement or a POR until you have time to focus on Scouting. I don't think that's unreasonable. Bottom line is that active participation is still a requirement for advancement. I don't know how you can evaluate a Scout's performance toward that requirement without considering attendance at some level whether objective or subjective.

I asked our Scout shop manager to find them for me a couple weeks ago, but so far havent' heard anything. I found buttons at the fabric store that I thought were close enough. I bought enough to eventually replace all the buttons on the jacket. If an exact matcth is important, I could go ahead and replace them all at once.

My understanding of the "you can't fail a Board of Review" rule is that rather than failing, the board is simply continued to a later date. It's a subtle difference but keeps things on a positive basis. Our troop will frequently tell Scouts that their board will be finished next week and suggest that the Scout review a certain subject in the mean time.

I don't know if Chippewa has left for camp yet, but my experience at camp this summer would at least make me wary about this Scout's attitude. I would certainly have a talk with him before we left. Two of my 14-year-old third-year campers showed up for summer camp with huge chips on their shoulders. (These are my two "at risk" guys I mentioned in the other thread.) They didn't really want to go to camp but were being made to by their parents. They spent the better part of the week making sure everyone knew they didn't want to be there. One of them shaped up by the end of the week, but the other was a first-rate horse's pitut and missed being sent home by the skin of his teeth. Lesson learned: Scouts who don't want to go to camp are red-flagged for potential discipline problems. Resolve them before you get on the bus. As to the larger issue of dealing with boys' disinterest in the program, a quote I heard several years ago sums it up: "Scouting is for every boy, but not every boy is for Scouting." If sitting home playing video games is your bag, well that's just not what we do here. That's not to say we can't reach that boy if we try. But if he insists on sitting around playing video games, it's just not going to work out. Pick up a Scout Handbook and say, "here's what Scouts do. If these things don't interest you then maybe this isn't the program for you." My problem Scout's dad tells me his son doesn't think Scouting is fun anymore. At that particular time, his son was sitting in the back of the room bored with the troop program about canoeing. He was bored because he wasn't planning to go on the ensuing canoe trip. Well duh! That's our fault? Much of it has to do with attitude and we are all familiar with the attidude a 14-year-old can cop. Things are fun and interesting if we want them to be fun and interesting. If we planned a troop meeting around skateboarding and Led Zepplin (this kid's two big passions) he would shrug his shoulders and say the meeting was boring, he does that stuff all afternoon. Who said you get out of Scouting what you put in to it? Amen!

One of the curiosities I've noticed is the number of boys who join and never make more than a meeting or two. Every year we have one or two Arrow of Light Webelos who turn in an application, pay dues and never make it to a second meeting. That mostly makes me wonder about the parents. Also makes me think our dues aren't high enough. I have to say I think we run a pretty good Webelos transition program, especially the past couple years. We've had great Webelos campouts and open houses. I would like to have more den chiefs working with the Webelos, but I can only push the string up hill so far. Long term, I'm just now getting to the point with my first class of Scouts that I'm starting to see some drop out. These guys are now third year Scouts. Of the original 8, two never made it to a second meeting. One moved away about a year ago and one dropped out this spring because he decided he no longer liked Scouts. Of the four remaining, two are Uber-Scouts I'll register as ASMs when they turn 18. The other two I would call "at risk." They are now 14 and see themselves as too cool for Scouts. I've been spending a lot of time with them, but how long they stay around remains to be seen....

The troop I serve is in heavy-duty rebuild mode so any program that reasonably resembles the planned agenda, holds the attention of the Scouts for the better part of the 90 minutes, and is more or less run by the Scouts is worth repeating!

Featherbear, It's hard to argue with success and I'm glad to hear your new Scouts are thriving, but there can be pitfalls to allowing Webelos to skip through to parts of the Boy Scout program. While some Webelos may be ready for some of Boy Scout skills, I think the greatest problem is losing the wonderment of becoming a Boy Scout. Granted, some of what we're talking about is just semantics -- does it really matter if they're a Webelos denner or a Patrol Leader? Maybe, maybe not. But why show them everything behind the curtain in advance? Almost all the activities you described could be conducted as part of the Webelos program. What's the rush? While your guys are doing well, it's not difficult to imagine a similar group of Scouts joining the troop with a collective "ho-hum, been there, done that, even got the patch!" The best way to prepare Webelos for the Scout troop is to offer them a well-run Webelos program, including plenty of camping. Statistically, earning the Arrow of Light and attend Webelos Resident Camp are the two strongest indicators of future success in a Scout troop. I'm not trying to be critical of you or your program, FB -- you certainly know your boys, your unit and the troop they are joining better than I. But for most folks reading a forum like this, just sticking with the program is the best way to go. TCD

Thanks for the full text, I wasn't able to find the full article where I didn't have to pay for it. Our Scouts are more likely to be asked "How do you demonstrate Reverance" or "How do you fulfill your Duty to God?" But yes, that's almost always asked in a BoR or SMC. I didn't realize until later that evmori's original post is in the Program forum. I apologize if I've nudged it into Issues and Politics -- not my intent. I didn't see this as a political issue or even a change in BSA philosophy, mainly just a pretty big mis-statement.

What Webelos really need to know is rather well defined in the requirements for the Arrow of Light award. The AoL award dovetails nicely with the Tenderfoot requirements. The new Boy Scouts will see just enough familiar material to make them comfortable, but enough new stuff to keep them interested. PLEASE don't think you have to teach your Webelos every thing the'll need to know in the troop. That's what the first year program is about. Remember Ages and Stages? Orienteering is fine, but use the materials in the Map & Compass sports and academics program. DO take your boys camping as a den. And make sure they all go to Webelos Resident Camp. Those experiences will do more to prepare them mentally and socially for Boy Scout camping and summer camp than anything else. Let them see that they really can get by without having mom or dad doing everything for them. Give them a taste of how much fun they can have in the woods with just the guys doing the things that Scouts do.

Is that today's paper? I usually pick up USAToday for the puzzles but my coffee shop was out by the time I got there. But did anyone see the interview in yesterday's USAToday with new BSA president Rick Cronk? Did you catch his response to the inevitable question about gays and atheists? Q: The BSA has been criticized for not allowing gays and atheists to participate. Do you agree with these policies? A: You have to distinguish between members and leadership standards. Scouting has its own values and you teach and train to be courteous of kids who have different values. We don't expect everyone to agree with BSA, but we are proud of what we do. "When it comes to standards we use as identifying leadership and mentors, we don't quiz anybody. But if somebody -- and these are virtually always adult leaders in Scouting -- avows publicly a gay lifestyle, we say to that leader, 'It violates our standards, and we prefer you offer your services to some other organization.' "When people use the word 'membership' you think of kids and Scouting asking kids if they believe in God. ... We don't ask those questions." Now I would be interested to see what was left out with the elipses following "believe in God. ..." but is he saying we can't ask kids if they believe in God? Well that should certainly shorten Board of Review and Scoutmaster Conferences! Nothing like making a splash your first day on the job!

Granted I'm a year out of the Cub program (actually, since I last posted I'm a NOcubdad -- all Boy Scouts now), but I don't recall Winter Camping being addressed in the G2SS as a separate activity. Cub Scouts are permitted to go Family Camping, which means among other things that a parent is with them and individually responsible for their health and safety. While as a conscientious Cubmaster I cancelled a number of campouts due to bad weather (and took a good bit of guff from the he-man campers), it is ultimately up to the parent to decide to participate or not. Our pack committee had this discussion several years ago. We decided it this way: Cub Scout camping is not about overcoming adversity, building character or testing ones mettle. Cub Scout camping is about having fun. Spending a weekend in a tent with a cold, wet, miserable 8-year old is definitely no fun.

Thanks for the input, I've spoken with a few other SMs locally and you guys seem to confirm what I've heard here. Scoutnut -- The boys are camping with a parent. They're just sleeping in separate tents. I see no YP violation in allowing the Webelos or other Cubs to tent with their buddies. If fact, that is required in the case where a Scout is attending the campout under the supervision of a parent other than his own.

Tell me how you guys organize your Webelos campouts. When it comes down to it, I suppose I'm looking for a suggested physical layout of the campsite. Do you let the Webelos camp together as their own "patrol" or do you try to integrate them into the other patrols for the weekend? I'm working from the assumption that all the Webelos aren't ready for a campout on their own, but still need the support of the troop. After all, they've been given a feel for camping skills in the Outdoorsman WAP, but don't necessarily have the necessary skills. Another question is what you do with the dads. The Webelos haven't tented with their parents for years, but buddy up and tent with other boys. I'm thinking that we could have the dads camp and eat with the troop leaders with the Webelos immediately adjacent to us. The Webelos could take turns eating meals with the other patrols. My goal is to integrate the Webelos with the Boy Scouts as much as is safely possible while still preserving the patrol method within the troop. This will be the first time in a number of years that the troop has run a proper Webelos campout. The past few have fallen through to the point that the pack invited the troop to the pack's campout just so the Webelos could complete that requirement. I feel that we have a good handle on appropriate activities for the Webelos, basing most of it on Webelos/Tenderfoot requirements.

Not new, but I haven't been around for awhile. I've probably spent more time on Scouts in the last 6 months that I should have, and didn't have much time to play on the computer. Since spring I've served on staff at National Camping School, taken Wood Badge (Antelope: Leading From Behind!), run our district day camp and spent a week each at Boy Scout Camp and Webelos resident camp. And, just for kicks, I stepped down as Cubmaster a few weeks ago and take over a Scoutmaster of the troop next month. WHEW! Seems like most of the core group is still here, but several new names. Good to hear from you all. TCD

We had an almost identical problem with a Scout back in April as what AwHeck describes. The Scout, a big 16-year-old and the leader of his patrol, had refused all weekend to take participate in any activities or to help with any of the camp chores. Sunday morning, when it was time to break camp, pack and clean, he and a buddy disappeared for about an hour while the rest of his patrol did all the work. When the two returned, I had a rather stern conversation with them causing the one Scout to break down crying and screaming obscenities at me. At that point we handed him a phone and told him to call his mother to pick him up. After spending about 20 minutes on the phone telling his mother how awfully he had been treated, he threw the $300 phone across the camp. At that point I was concerned that he was becoming violent and just let him sit until his mother arrived. The following week, we had a conference between the Scout and his mom, during which he broke down crying again, kicked a chair and stormed out. As with AwHeck's mom, this lady looks at us very sincerely and says, "Well you know he's been diagnosed as bi-polar." NO, and it would have been dang nice if she had told us! I don't feel it is in my job description to deal with serious behavorial issues. My one rule has always been that if you want to be a Scout, you have to behave like a Scout. Screaming obscenities at the adult leaders and throwing things is not Scoutlike behavior -- I don't care what the underlying psychological causes are. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the family -- not the unit -- to manage these problems. In our cub pack we have a Scout who is a rather unstable, insulin-dependent diabetic. Not in a million years am I going to accept responsibility for doing blood tests and injecting insulin to someone else's child. He always has a parent with him, except for short meetings where he can be checked before or after. Of course we know to keep an eye on him and have appropriate snacks available. We are able to do that because the parents came to us and explained the situation. Another example related to behavioral issues: We have another Scout in the troop who has some rather serious although controlled behavioual issues. The only thing we have to make sure of is that he wakes up and takes his medication in time to lie in bed for about 30 minutes while it takes effect. He cannot be expected to wake up and hit the ground running. Again, the parents explained this to us (admittedly after it had been a problem on a campout) and we now know to wake him up early and remind him to take his meds. Bottom line is that I'm not going to be in the woods responsible for a 175-pound 16-year-old with uncontrolled behavioral problems and somewhat violent tendencies. As a matter of the safety of both the Scout and the others in the unit, they either get the situation under control or stay home.

How long? - Five days, 8:30 to 3:02 How much? - $85 with $20 discount for children of full-week volunteers. $35 for sibling program. What act.? - BBs, archery, crafts, games, crafts, canoeing, fishing from boats), obstacle course, squirt gun wars and a variety of other theme-related activities which have in the past included, recycling, nature, map & compass, personal safety, gold panning, etc. Lunch provided? - No, boys bring bag lunch, but a quiet lunch time activity is provided.

No. 1 son called about 10 last night. He didn't mention the accident but said two leaders had died. I explained that in any city of 40-50,000 people that they should expect that on any given day someone's number will come up. He said the heat was pretty bad and that he started feeling a bit overheated during the afternoon. He stopped in one of the medical centers for water and Tylenol. I had told him that the medical tent would be run by the military like MASH units, so I think he really wanted to check them out. He said they went through the disability awareness trail which was interesting and he got some information for that merit badge, althought the trail isn't really a merit badge center. Other than that, he said everyone is laying low due to the heat, staying near their own camps and trading patches.

We don't have a specific policy, but during the times the boys were likely to be in camp (late afternoon and evening) there was usually an adult nearby. As to the YP issue, I wouldn't intrepret the two deep rule to mean that you have to have two leaders in every possible situation at camp. That, effectively, would mean that adult would always have to have an adult buddy with them every where they went. I don't know of any camp where that happens. I will say that from time to time that thought has occured to me while I've been walking somewhere in camp and happen to catch up with a couple of boys along the trail. I do spend my mornings at camp wandering from merit badge class to merit badge class. Early in the week I'm checking to see if my Scouts got where they are supposed to be, particularly with the first year guys who don't know the layout that well. I also like to sit in on the classes and see what the quality of instruction is like. By the end of the week I tend to gravitate toward the areas that I enjoy.

That's the best idea, Carol. The belt loop and pin are going to have age-appropriate requirement and program suggestions. One thing I learned doing this about a year ago is to make a map of the immediate area for the boys to use. Everything should be visible to them. When the map is oriented correctly, the things the see on the ground are in the same relationship as they are on the map. This makes the concept concrete and easier for the boy (and most adults) to understand. We did this as a station at day camp last year. For that we bought a bunch of compasses from Wal-Mart for $3. WARNING: you get what you pay for. I tried using these compasses on the orienteering course at Boy Scout camp and found they were off +/- 5 degrees in either direction.

Hi folks, remember me? Been gone awhile. The doctor adjusted my medication some months back and I haven't felt the need to follow the forums as closely as I used to. Actually, I've spent the spring doing things like taking Wood Badge, serving on staff at NCS, planning day camp, etc. Interesting thread. I'd like to interject one thought. Why is our mission to teach youth to make ethical decisions? Why don't we just say always follow the rules and leave it at that? P.S. Has anyone noticed the "Beat Any Speeding Ticket" advertisement in the right column? Just a coincidence I'm sure....(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Just got back from my first weekend last night and had a great time. I thought the course contained a good balance of theoretical management/leadership material and practical BSA information that I would expect in an advanced Scouter training course. Based largely on what I've read here over the years, I expected it to be mostly management training, but that wasn't the case. I thought Win All You Can was a hoot. My patrol figured it out early and tried to get the other patrols to work together. But they didn't get it and kept voting against us. We really took a beating, but stuck to our guns. At the next break we finally got the others to understand the game. The other team of patrols never did figure it out. The guy running the game really did a great job. Several people got really upset by the whole thing. While I give high marks to both the course and our staff, there are a few things I would tweak: First of all, I'll second several of the comments others have made. I thought the program was tilted heavily toward Boy Scouts and very little material directed at Cub. (Probably 40% of our class are Cubbers). I can only imagine that will be a worse problem with the outdoor experience next time. Although I enjoyed October Sky and thought it was a good addition to the course, Sunday afternoon was the wrong time for it. Maybe Saturday night? I would have liked to have seen more of Remember the Titans, too. Schedule wise, I'd like to have the patrol meeting times more concentrated. Seems like we never had more that about 15-20 minutes at a time. If all the patrol times were combined into one longer block, we could have gotten much more done. One thing that could come from National which would be beneficial would be a good workbook. The loose-leaf notebook we received only contained words to the songs, scripts for the ceremonies and things like that. There really was no rhyme or reason to the handouts we received which seemed to depend on the individual presenter. A workbook with a great deal more written material supporting and/or repeating the info we are hearing would be a great addition. It could be organized around the five elements -- values, tools of the trade, etc. -- and should include lots of room for notes. Because of the way the syllabus jumped from one topic to another, I found it difficult to try and keep my information organized. I haven't been sold on the value of the project just yet. I understand that it's a team building exercise, but the topics are so wide open, it seems somewhat like group busy work. It seems to me we are taking subjects we already have a good deal of expertise in and doing a report on them. If the topics were more closly controlled, or maybe if we were given case studies to work on (like we have at camp school) the projects would be more instructional. TCD A good ol' Antelope too!

You will find that most things in Scouting are intentionally somewhat vague in order to provide the most flexibility for the wide variety of local conditions you may encounter. There are a number of areas which don't hold traditional day camps. Of course this doesn't apply bold-type policy, such as that found in the G2SS. As they say, the program is flexible, policy isn't. As to your question Fred, the Cub Scout program most often runs with the school year. (There are some exceptions, most notably with LDS units.) A Tiger who completed the first grade last June 1 became a Wolf and attended summer camp as a Wolf. If that boy is trying to earn the activity award for his Wolf year, I would accept any activities that were completed during that year, June 1 to June 1, in this case. When the requirements were published is immaterial. I certainly don't see how this represents any sort of ethical issue or slipping of the standards. The boys are completing the requirements as they were given to them. They have no knowledge that the requirements have been "clarified," and except for having read about this earlier in the forum, neither would I. As I said, our council is still distributing the original, unclarified requirements. If a Scout honestly earns an award, why would you deny it based on national having miscommunicated the requirements?

We received a color flyer on this award along with our 75th Anniversary materials and round up info last August. At that time, the requirements did not include the "clarification" that day or resident camp attendance needed to occur after Sept. 1. As a matter of fact, our council is still distributing that same sheet without the amended requirements. As we gave that version of the requirements to our Scouts last fall, we are honoring it and have given the award to several boys who have earned it. Frankly, I don't think attending camp this summer or last is that big of a deal. For the most part the same boys to to summer camp every year. But if you need some justification for it, a Scout who starts the requirements for a given award is generally allowed to complete the award under the original requirments, even if the requirements are changed. Day camp could be a one day event. There is no time requirement as to what constitutes a camp. In my opinion, if your council or district does not have a week-long camp in the summer, a one-day event may suffice.

We have a fairly simple set of worksheets the boys use to plan outings. One page is an overview (who, what, where, when, etc.), there is a blank duty roster, a menu/food work sheet and an equipment list. PM me and I'll e-mail a copy to whoever wants them. These aren't at the level of food quantities, but are mostly blank spaces for the boys to complete. The menu planner, for example, has three columns: one is the menu, two is the list of ingredients/shopping list and the third column is needed equipment. The first two columns are blanks. The third includes most of the common items boys will take on a trip. Not to get in to a long debate on educational theory, but I like the "See one, do one, teach one" method myself. Using these forms is simply a framework for planning an outing. The point is for them to focus on what they need for a sucessful outing, not doing the paperwork.