SSScout

All of a sudden I feel really blessed to have had the Troop leaders I had 'way back when'. I don't remember ever having that sort of problem as I was advised and counseled thru my Eagle. Come to think of it, yep, it was almost 30 years ago. I would think the boy has learned the important lesson that, often, "a verbal agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on". GET IT IN WRITING. Somewhere in the bowels of the National headquarters is some paper with signatures on it that attests that a bunch of Old Fogeys thought that a certain young man was worthy to hang a multi colored cloth patch on his pocket. I feel very grateful to them for that confidence. I don't remember that I made any great mistakes along the way. Perhaps it was the OFs that helped me avoid those. Could the OFs in this case be reminded that PERHAPS some one of them glanced away, rather than looked over the boys shoulder at an opportune time? Good Scouting to you, MinnSM. YiS(This message has been edited by SSScout)

I'm coming in late to this discussion, but I find great agreement with all that has been said. When my son became a Cub, I discovered to my surprise, that the Pack turned Cubs upside down to award the Bobcat. I told them not with my son. And not any more to any other boy. The parents had no idea about the problems and risks involved. Physical injury ( what if some one slips?), psycological trauma, the example of a small 'hazing' making larger 'hazings'seem OK (initially they didn't see this as 'hazing', only good ole boy ribbing taken to a lower level), public humiliation even in "good fun". Where was the celebration of the boys accomplishment? and why defame it in this way for no real purpose? If you want to see humiliation done for a purpose, check with your local Marine DI. They've got purpose! Wedgies can be harmful, even physically and emotionally ("ahh we didn't mean any harm"). It is a form of bullying, and has no place in Scouting. I think that CM needs to consider the words of that great country western philosopher Dierks Bentley: "What was I thinking?"

One person is the "Camporee Chair". He/she works with the DE and the OA to organize the skeleton of the Camporee. (NB: this is not what we call the Webelos Weekend, which is a seperate affair). Usually, along with the "special" stuff ( climbing wall, black powder muskets, etc.), the CCh asks each Troop to sponsor/organize an activity that can be purely fun or Scout oriented. Some past "Stations" have included frisbee golf, an orienteering course, a nature trail/scavenger hunt, a pioneering contest, matchless fire building, archery. Not all Troops sponsor a "station". I guess someone has to be left over (and not march) to WATCH the parade!

I know there are lots of good, useful, thought provoking, "AHA!" type suggestions out there , but often they are what I call "self correcting". F'rinstance: "If I told you once, I've told you a million times, DON'T EXAGGERATE!" Y'all got any more?

Oh, it's one hour a week. I'm now into ...oh, let's see... December 2027...

Icons are not only visual.... "Open channel D" "Little buddy" "Round and round she goes and where she stops..." "Plunk your magic twanger , Froggy" "My time is up, I thank you for yours" "Hawaya, hawaya, hawaya..." ""These are the voyages..." "Do not attempt to adjust your set..." "You open this door with the key to imagination..." "Hey kids,..." "And they are MILD" "Let's hear it...for ...THE BEATLES!!" " And awa-a-a-y we go!" "ummm how sweet it is!" ...Here's a hard one...said only once... "...G'bye, kids..." YiS

"All politics am local" Personal story: When I came back from Roundtable with the information that our District Camporee had to be rescheduled from its original site/date due to a previous scheduled event, the question was NOT "how can we go there on that date" but "who's in charge this year?" And when I named the name (different than the year before), the Troop Committee together nodded and said, "then we'll go." The Program is the most important thing. Next, is the Parents commitment to the Boys. Without that commitment, THERE IS NO PROGRAM. Is that a triad? Program--Boys--Parents. Icons, uniforms (a nudist Scout Troop?), activities, all tie together, but again without parent commitment, there is no program. If the Boy says PLEEZE MOMMY AND DADDY I want to be a Cub/Boy/Venturer/Sea Scout, it means little if M & D say "I don't have the time " or "I don't agree with the ((insert du jour bone of contention here))". Please review sons explanation above. Number crunching can lead one to the river, but it can't make your horse thirsty (uh?). All you umbrage taking folks out there, PLEEEEZE realize we are ALL on the same side (outside) of the elephant that each of you is trying to describe BLINDLY to the others (another Rudyard Kipling reference). It ain't worth the extra blood pressure. YiS

Yes! I remember that too. Any Moore?

MY version goes ( and you can try to google it)... "I am a fine musician, I practice everyday, And when you hear me practice, you can hear me play, My TROMBONE, my TROMBONE, I love to play my TROMBONE... RaaH Raah RATARATA RAha RA arRAHH (with appropriate trombone motions, thru eight beats only)) my picolo, my picolo, I love to play my PICOLO... Treeedaleealee treadaledaledalele... etc. Pick up all the instruments you like until everybody in the band is playing in sync, in harmony (suurrre) Caliope... Oompa oompah oompahpah ..Move up and down Bass Drum ...Hands in the air when beating Trumpet ... swing horn left and right my Bass viol, My Bas Viol... VoomVoomVoooom VoomVoom Voooom Etc... Lots of ETC!! Danny Kaye did a marvelous version in one of his movies, but which one escapes me at present. Have Fun YiS

"all politics is local" (are local?) Scouting is not going to dissapear any time soon, but as an influence on the young (and wow, I used to be a young), it's influence has been eroded. How? TV and other media has contributed to this decline. Where the child got his skills, interests and values (there's that word again) from the family, now he (and she!) get alot of it from the flash and dash of the litle screen (and the big screen). The parents that ALLOW the screen to be a prime source, without challenge, ("now why did Homer say that?") OR LIMIT ("no, our family does not support the ideas presented by that show because...") end up wondering why the kids act the way they do. What is the childs example? Scouting ( Cub, Boy, Explorer, etc.) in some communities USED to be the "only game in town". We had a Cub Scout softball league, very big deal here. , No more. And I don't speak of only TV. Now, since the kid can't always "make the team" at school, they now have a choice of (in our town) community basketball, football, soccer ( yeah, I coached my daughters team),wrestling, baseball, LLeague (seperate!), chess, AND track. And more. Some churches do not support Scouting, where they used to. Some churches have created their own Scout type program, because... Personal story: Our Cub pack had a big recruit push and 14 families signed up for Tigers! We had a get together meeting and 12 showed up. (called the others,and were told, "we're just not interested anymore". a week later?) At the meeting, boys taken aside and had some crafts and Scout games. Laughs and fun. Parents in the other room, talked about program. Dues not a problem. Uniform not a problem. Tigers equal parents come to meetings, go on trips together. Program laid out , monthly meetings, go to firehouse, zoo, train model display, little hike thru park,etc., pack meeting. Tigers rewarded with "paws" and beads. One parent take lead for one month. Lots of head nodding. Need one parent to be the phone tree start, but Pack leaders will take care of the rest. NOT ONE parent would sign up. NOT ONE. We had no Tigers that year. our DE commiserated with us. CM followed up. DE followed up. No thank yous all around. Not the religious issue (not this time... another story there). not the uniform issue. Not the badge and rank issue. To a man (woman?) all said " I don't have the time for this if Johnny is going to do the soccer/football/karate/care for parrots/choir/pcgames that I know he loves". Same year (not so long ago) we recruited 3 bears. One was the son of a Life scout dad who was shipped out to Iraq. His mom then said," I'm sorry, but we just won't have the time." Of the other two Bears, one went on and is now a Scout. The other went into Pop Warner football and baseball and Church camp AND... Long story short, when time came for CM to move on with son into Scouts, Pack parents were given months of warning. No one would go to training. One parent offered (seriously) to pay the CM to continue on as CM. Pack folded. Cubs transferred to other packs, or dropped out. DE and RD beat bushes and covered the elementary school (very cooperative principal, thank you). No one expressed any interest. Now, the Pack is still listed on the rolls of the District, but no enrollment, no CM, and the charter org is still listed. DEs want more UNITS ( so I have read here) BUT... AIN"T NO UNITS WITHOUT SCOUTS. (or is there?) DO RECRUIT SCOUTS, BUT ALSO RECRUIT PARENTS. It is all tied together. Time, society, soccer, parents, somewhere the boy/girl has to be included too. Do the boys enjoy Cubbing? Yep. Do the parents think the boys enjoy Cubbing? Some admitted to it, some, Dunno. Did the boys enjoy Boy's Life? Sure did. Did the Parents enjoy Boy's Life? Dunno. Does my boy enjoy camping and hiking and seeing new stuff? Sure do, he told me, 'cept for the bullies and name callers in the Troop. Gotta speak to the SM about them. Very un Scoutlike. Does the Scout Promise and Law mean anything to him? Sure does. He tells me it's the part that is the most frustrating, the ideal that I encourage him to follow that the rest of the world doesn't seem to. So I asked him (a real live Scout) "why do boys join Scouts?" his answer was, quote,"some boys like it, some boys don't. Some boys parents MAKE'M join." So, there you have it. Sociologists aside, in a nut shell, unvarnished truth, from the horses(uh, Scouts) mouth. The Scout Troop Parents are a self selected group. They DO participate, because their son (or daughter... Venturers) wants them too and the parent sees a benefit for their son. Recruit the son but you have to recruit the parent too. Oops... Gotta go to work... My time is up, I thank you for yours. YiS(This message has been edited by SSScout)

Always try to check back on these entries... Thank you SWS, my info was verbal at the RT, so I will go back and speak to our DE designate ( we are between DEs). I think we'll still sell a little PC, none the less...

Yes, the PC is overpriced. Yes, the effort to sell it may not be worth the return to the Unit. Yes, the original story sounds like unscoutlike coercion. But... The Council and National and the District doesn't sell Christmas wreaths or wash cars or put up flags or direct traffic at the county fair (and that is one Troops fundraiser in our Council). So do they raise the Dues to a "realistic" level, or do we sell some popcorn? I've been of the opinion that if GSA can sell cookies at a price CLOSE to a regular retail price, why can't BSA sell the PC at a closer to regular retail price? We've set up a table on the sidewalk and I know we were selling PC not because its good PC but because it's Boy Scout PC. People also give us the dollars and say "keep the PC". Our Council just announced that to earn "Quality Unit" this year, the unit MUST sell PC. So, we sell $8000 of wreaths and a few Scouts sell some PC. Coercion? Perhaps. But we will do it.

Ah, the blessings of growth. Rejoice in poularity, many Troops around the country are struggling. If you can't deal with Patrols that are semi autonomous from the Troop, perhaps setting off a new Troop could be considered. OOO- OOO! I know! The charter org sponsors TWO Troops! A north end Troop and a south end Troop! WoW! True story: My Cub Pack sponsored a "Join Scouting" night at the elementary school. We invited our Scout Troops to come , they set up a rope bridge and model camp site. We also invited the local Girl Scout Troops to come (seemed only right...). They both declined, complaining that they "had too many girls" already and didn't want any more (!!). YiS

Ah, the blessings of growth. Rejoice in poularity, many Troops around the country are struggling. If you can't deal with Patrols that are semi autonomous from the Troop, perhaps setting off a new Troop could be considered. OOO- OOO! I know! The charter org sponsors TWO Troops! A north end Troop and a south end Troop! WoW! True story: My Cub Pack sponsored a "Join Scouting" night at the elementary school. We invited our Scout Troops to come , they set up a rope bridge and model camp site. We also invited the local Girl Scout Troops to come (seemed only right...). They both declined, complaining that they "had too many girls" already and didn't want any more (!!). YiS

Ah, the blessings of growth. Rejoice in poularity, many Troops around the country are struggling. If you can't deal with Patrols that are semi autonomous from the Troop, perhaps setting off a new Troop could be considered. OOO- OOO! I know! The charter org sponsors TWO Troops! A north end Troop and a south end Troop! WoW! True story: My Cub Pack sponsored a "Join Scouting" night at the elementary school. We invited our Scout Troops to come , they set up a rope bridge and model camp site. We also invited the local Girl Scout Troops to come (seemed only right...). They both declined, complaining that they "had too many girls" already and didn't want any more (!!). YiS

I distinctly remember all the SMs I had in my STroop. We had 5 in the 7 years I was in Scouts. I seem to remember that the 'passing of the flag' occurred at the end of a CoH. It was always the last thing . The retiring SM did all the opening ceremonial stuff and the awards (candles, Scout Promise, Scout Law, etc.). Then some other adult type person ( the CC? the CRep?) came up and said some good things about the retiring SM and the passing of time, etc. The SPL and sometimes some other senior Scouts also came up and thanked the RSM, placques and souvenirs were handed out. Something tearjerking, something funny. Then the new SM was invited forward. The SPL handed the Troop flag to the RSM, who handed it to the NSM, with appropriate words about taking good care of the Troop, etc. Somewhere along the way, the flag is replaced in its stand (?SPL?) and the Troop circled up for the closing. The NSM gave the closing SM minute and the "may the Great Scoutmaster..." closing. I seem to remember that the flags were retired BEFORE the closing circle. *sigh* YiS (This message has been edited by SSScout)

" I expect to pass through this world but once; any good thing therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now; let me not defer it or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again." =Stephan Grellet=

First, I would make sure the Troop Committee or at least the CC meets with the CO rep and understands WHY the split is desired. Money problems? Irresponsible behavior somehow? Difference of philosophy? Personal insult not perceived? They want a different youth group? Like he said... Part on good terms, as best you can... What Eaglebeader said, and everone else previous. Charter Orgs? Cast around to the Scout parents. The Scout Grandparents. The school principal. The local Radio station. Keep the conversations going and the ears open. Someone will know someone who has heard from someone else. A door will open. Have faith. In our council (and some others I know of), here are some Charter organizations: Churches and temples and synagogues (could you accept being chartered by a faith not your own?), PTAs, private schools, volunteer fire companies, Lions clubs, American Legions, VFWs, Moose, Rotary, Kiwanis, private businesses, the local hospital (thru its community outreach department). Like Bob the Tomato said, "it's for the kids"... TiS(This message has been edited by SSScout)

I like that. It bears repeating... "Have high expectations - scouts will strive to meet them. Have low expectations - they will meet those also." Perhaps this applies to the Adult Leaders also?

I am always amazed how Scouts always fail to seek out the Hostel in a given area. The International Youth Hostel organization was founded back in the 1920s and 30s to foster international travel and friendship by creating inexpensive accomodations. Recently,it was finally admitted that the Youth in the title was misleading, inas much as many of the hostel users were young in spirit only, the name was recast as "Hosteling International". The Washington Hostel is truly downtown, at 1009 11th St. NW. walking distance to almost all the monuments and a Metro stop is nearby for further travel. Hostels are inexpensive because of the simple accomadations. Hostelers usually share some housekeeping chores before they leave. Some hostels have kitchens to share. Hosels do require membership to stay,and you can do it with individual memberships, family, or group. Perhaps your Troop or Patrol could join as a group. There are also hostels in Baltimore and neaar Harpers Ferry. Contact: www.hiwashingtondc.org , 202.737.2333. Check'em out before you check in! Next in line would be the Greenbelt Park, National Park service, very popular campground. but you must walk about 2 miles to the nearest Metro station, or drive. Close to CollegePark, MD. And on the other side of the city is Little Bennett Regional Park, close to I270. Drive down to Shady Grove Metro Station. Nice group camp grounds, all the usual camp amenities. Between Frederick, MD and Gaithersburg. www.littlebennettcampground.com 301.972.9222 AAAND There's Camp William B. Snyder, near Haymarket, VA. New camp of the National Capitol Council, tent platforms, trails, nature preserve, pool in season. Very nice. Only real draw back is the traffic on I66, should you really want to go into our nations capitol. But what's a trip for, if not to seek out a little adventure, eh? Check out the NCAC website: www. boyscouts-ncac.org 301.530.9360 Tell us how the trip goes! YiS

I have no argument with any of the thoughts presented so far. I think we are all in agreement that it is a good thing to teach our young'ns good from bad, give'm consequences for not doing what we think is "the right thing", understand they will make some bad decisions and forgive'm acordingly. BUT... What is the difference in the TEACHING that leads one person to run into the burning house and perhaps give their life to save another, while someone else sacrefices their life to kill others? The first is universally named a hero, while the second might be called a hero in one cultural context and a mass murderer in another. Yet both have made "ethical" (moral?) decisions consistant with their cultural upbringing. That's one extreme end of the spectrum. Is it purely 'fear', whether of Sister Mary Mathew or your dad or the law or your g(G)od? Is it example? I remember once having an adult friend of my father APOLOGIZE to me, a mere Scout, for a mistake he had made that only slightly affected me. But I remember that apology yet, so many years later, as an example of taking responsibility for ones actions, good or ill. I was once told that the Hebrew people were so concerned with following God's commandments (and if you read enough of the Bible, I think you'll realize there were ALOT more than ten) to the letter, they lost sight of the spirit behind them. Is that part of the equation? Wow, how does something that seems so natural, now seem so complicated? 'Course maybe I'm worried about the wrong thing. Maybe encouraging boys to return lost wallets or do their assigned chores willingly or admitting that requirement 2B of the merit badge was never done is different than not hitting your tent mate or willfully killing that blacksnake. Wha'dya think, eh? Should I drop a couple bucks in that beggars hat or just not make eye contact as I walk by? And how did Scouting fail those boys that grew up to be the child abusers mentioned lately in the "Headlines" section? "Truth is much more convenient. You have so much less to remember." YiS

Thank you. Fuzzy: I think the questions are almost always more important than the answers. I think we (our society) loses sight of why our enemy is like he/she is at our greater peril. If we only want to destroy them, then we lose the possibilty of ultimately convincing them of our friendship (or is that something we really want?). Do we prefer them DEAD or our possibly forgiven FRIENDS? I ask the questions because 1) I do not pretend to fully understand the possible answers and 2)I like to hear the further wisdom of my fellow forumites. You all make me THINK, which leads me to play the Devils Advocate on occasion. YOU help ME understand myself... ( BTW, I recommend "The War Prayer" by Mark Twain) So if the suicide bomber sees his/her sacrifice as somehow benefitting his/her family/community/nation (if only by example?),HOW has he/she been taught to come to this point? What makes our rules/examples/teaching/Scoutmaster Minutes/counseling effective in getting our boys (and girls!) to "sacrifice" their lives to BUILD rather than DESTROY? I just finished watching the last two episodes of "Victory at Sea" with our son. This is part of his home schooling, history class. Trying to explain to him WHY the young Kamakaze pilots thought it necessary/appropriate to dive their planes into the atacking US ships was hard. Drive off the enemy and defend the home islands at all cost? Glory and honor in death? Reward in heaven? Loyalty to the Emporer? Loyalty to the other soldiers/pilots that had gone before? After what the Japanese military had done to their neighboring nations, son wanted to know why these pilots (not so much older than son) would even WANT to fight the US. Didn't they know how wrong they (the Japanese) had been? (of course not). Try to explain the South East Asia Coprosperity Sphere and the Japanese belief in their "destiny"... Back to Scouts: "...gather the clan that cheerful service brings to fellow man..." I think I remember that right. The self centered boy (gimme my Gameboy back!) may eventually get "out of himself" if we keep at it. Fuzzy: My "moral code"? I've often felt that if everyone who espouses Christanity actually followed Christs example and teaching, there could be no wars... YiS.

Howdy, Prairie. Sit ye down and pass the pipe 'round (metaphoric pipe. I don't smoke. Sometimes wish I did, just for the image). Welcome to the forums. Another wall hanger: "Good work is love made visible" YiS

So... The person who stops to change a strangers tire... The person who dedicates their life to inspiring and helping the poor and sick, using all their resources (to the point of being nearly destitute)... The person who seeks to bring peace to war torn areas, at the cost of his life (remember Tom Fox? and others)... The person who makes billions (with a B)of dollars, by his inventing and organizing skills, who then finances many other people to do many good things (by our own definition of "good")... The father who sleeps less than he should to work at three jobs so his children will wake up to a college education... The fire fighter who RUNS up the stairs into the burning house... These folks are different from the fellow whose first question is "whats in it for me?" in what way? And how (HOW) has the car bomber been convinced that his/her action will benefit... who? Not him/herself... his/her family? nation? How (not why) , how is it done?

Dirt Scouts! I do like that... Must 've seen our Troop after a trip out the AT... YiS, big E...