SR540Beaver

Ditto to Gern. Usually a "groundcloth" is listed as something to bring. A lightweight 6 x 8 plastic tarp can be folded in half to lay on as a groundcloth or slipped between to protect from ground below and weather above. Most bivy sacks are pricey.

FScouter, Ummmmm, yes.....that was exactly what I was acknowledging. We always employee the patrol method except on rare occasion like this one night recruiter. It is a one nighter due to Mothers Day which was the only weekend that would fit the calendar for May. The boys are doing the teaching and need all the time that would be taken with cooking and KP. So in this instance, Biscuits and gravy for breakfast by adults with some scout assistance will be the order of the day. Lunch was originally supposed to be sandwiches, but has recently been changed to tin foil dinners over coals to help with one of the Webelos pins. So, even though everyone will be involved in cooking, it will not be by patrol. Last month was the "annual" chili cook-off between patrols and the adults too. Each patrol had to have a pot of chili, cornbread by dutch oven and dessert. We were in a state park and enlisted the services of a nearby RV'ing family to act as our impartial judges. I'm proud to say that our NSP actually won the contest.

"Is this tweak the Patrol Method?" No....and I don't see how it could even be mistaken for such. We on rare occasion do the troop meal. Our campout two weeks from now is one of those occasions. Our troop is holding a Pin Fair for the Webelos dens in our district as a recruitment tool. The boys will be doing the teaching. We will actually go out to our local scout property on Thursday night and set up camp. That way we can hit the ground running on Friday night when the Webelos show up. Everyone is supposed to eat dinner before arriving at camp. Breakfast and lunch will be served and the event will be over before dinner on Saturday. We made it a one nighter since Sunday is Mothers Day. We'll pack up camp and haed home on Saturday evening. So in this individual case, the boys will be freed from any menu planning, shopping, meal prep or KP so they can interact with the Webelos and teach them the pins. Any other time and it is there job to do......because that is what the patrol method does.

Where we camp and what we do for program has a drastic effect on non-registered adults coming or staying home. It dies down anyway after the crossovers have gone on a campout or two and the new parents have checked us out to make sure we won't let thier son die. It is after this couple of campouts that many new parents decide to register or not. We don't have 30+ registered adults, non-registered adults and sibling family members on every campout. The campout last weekend was in a state park about 50 miles straight down the interstate from home and we were doing our annual chili cook-off.......which the new scout patrol I work with won BTW with the instruction of their Troop Guides.

E, How did you get 90 scouts and equipment to a location without non-uniformed adult assistance? A few weeks ago when I was Campmastering at our property just outside of town, a small troop hiked 5 miles to camp down backroads. All they carried was their daypacks and the adults drove the trailer to camp with all of the equipment. We sometimes go 150 miles to camp. Asking a parent to drive 300 miles round trip on a Friday night and then do the same on a Sunday morning isn't such a good option regardless of whether it is 10 scouts or 100.

E, I understand your concerns and even voiced them myself to our SM just this past week. Registered leaders are much like scouts, they come and go over time. Today's visiting parent is tomorrow's committee member, chaplain, quartermaster, ASM or SM. Heck, they have a car and a drivers license which make them very valuable to us. The adult leadership does not set up tents, cook, do KP or entertain parents and siblings. They are taught to do all of those things and expected to pitch in. They are on the duty roster along with we uniformed types. For that matter, they actually free us uniformed types up to do our real job. The Dud Patrol used to have a person who functioned like a PL. The SM was saying this past weekend how he'd like to recruit someone to accept that role so he could step out of the role of "oracle" with the adults. Just like we expect and send the boys back to their PL, we can point adults wanting to know where the toilet paper is or how do we wash a dutch oven to an experienced adult "PL" so we can do our job with the boys. Also, we make it very clear that boys do not enter the adult area without a purpose and without asking permission and voce versa. In other words, leave the boys and the program alone. It certainly isn't the only way to do it and I'm not even advocating it to other troops. It is what we have evolved to since having to beg for help in years past and it works for us. My choice would be for 10 or so uniformed adult leaders to go on a campout with 40 to 50 boys. That just isn't going to happen in our environment. I will say that I expect the number of adults to drop off as new scout parents and new scouts get more comfrotable with the troop. One other note. My experience has been that a boy will stay in scouting longer and advance further when he has a parent that is involved at some level with the troop.

AntelopeDud and I are members of the Dud Patrol. Our custom patrol patch is a lit firecracker snapped in half. While we have many adults and occasional siblings camp as part of the Dud Patrol, the boys actually select the registered adult leadership to the Duds after they have proven themselves "worthy" and bestow their patch on them at a campfire or COH. I was around for well over a year attending every meeting and campout and serving as an ASM before I was honored. This past weekend we had 40+ boys on our campout. Since we have just had 17 crossovers in the past 6 to 8 weeks, we had lots of parents along checking us out. We had 30 registered adults, parents and siblings along for a total of 70+ on the campout. I recently expressed some concern to our SM about the number of adults we have along. He told me how different it was when he became SM about 6 years ago. He would have to call adults on Thursday night and literally beg someone to come along so he could have two deep leadership and spent three days at summer camp once as the only adult there. So, as long as the adults don't interfere in the boy led troop on the campouts, he is happy to accomodate as many as want to participate. We are in an enviable position of never wanting for adult assistance for anything.

I can only repeat what has been said here, so I'll keep it short. I'm one of those guys who enjoys a guys only campout, but have absolutely no issue with women coming along or being scout leaders. Heck, I staffed a WB course with a female course director who set the gold standard in my estimation. Our troop wouldn't function nearly as well as it does without the ladies who are involved. That being said, I find it important for the boys to have male role models in scouting. If I want to learn a sport, I'll go to a person who teaches that sport. If I want to learn a certain subject, I'll go to a school that teaches the subject. You get the idea. The aims of scouting can be modeled by men and women alike. But, since a scouts gender is male, the "best" model (not only, but best" is that of a man since that is what the boy will grow into.

Other than being used to teach the Totin' Chit, I've never actually seen an axe used in the three troops I've been associated with. We have one in the trailer, but it never comes out. It just isn't needed. We arrive at camp on Friday night, set up camp, have a quick PLC and go to bed. Saturday is filled with program activities, cooking, eating and KP. We have a campfire program that evening with downed wood found on the ground. Sunday we eat breakfast, break camp, have a Scouts Own and head home. I've never really came across a need for chopping or sawing wood on an outing. But then we don't build fires with logs as thick as our thighs either.

Breaking, bending, tweaking, changing, ignoring, interpreting, etc. the rules is easy and anyone can do it. It takes trustworthyness, loayalty and character to accept and follow the rules you've agreed to live by. Following my company's policies and rules is a requirement of my future continued employment. Joining and following the rules of a small scale voluntary society is strictly by my choice. I choose to live by the Oath and the Law on MY honor. For me, part of that means setting an example for the kids I work with to do the right thing by following the rules.

I've heard that the registration numbers are down in our council. I've also heard that the Girl Scout program isn't what it used to be. Perhaps we can convince the SE to open the Cub and Boy Scout programs to girls of the same age as a pilot program in our council. The girls will get a quality program and the numbers will be up. Just a minor tweak and after all, its for the children.

In 2005, the cost for any participant who had the cash was $1,900. That covered everything except additional uniform pieces (3 complete uniforms) and spending money. We flew from Oklahoma City to Philedelphia. We toured Philly, Baltimore and Washington DC for 5 days prior to going to the Jambo. The cost covered a shakedown, patches, footlockers, duffel bags, daypacks, airfare, tour buses, hotel, food, etc. and the Jambo itself. We were allowed 4 contingent troops for our Council and ended up having to cut it back to 3 regardless of the very hard recruiting work of we adults selected to act as SM's and ASM's. Our council delivers Scouting opportunities to over 30,000 youth located in cities and towns in twenty-four counties in central, western, and southwestern Oklahoma and I believe it was the cost that kept us from recruiting a 4th troop. While it is nice to have the same facilities available for each Jambo, it is a hardship price-wise the further west you move away from Virginia. Guys like Eamonn have it "easy". Oklahoma was $1900. I can only imagine what it cost the kids from California, Washington or Alaska. One idea that was thrown out was the possibility of having a 4th troop that rides a tour bus instead of flying and does not do the DC touring, but the council didn't like that idea.

If you cook them correctly, Sasquatchs are some mighty fine eating. Can feed a whole troop......maybe two. The only problem is finding a dutch oven large enough to fit them in.

Last year we had 24 new scouts. This year we currently stand at 17 with the possibility of getting more. As the lead ASM for new scouts, my desire is to have the boys out of the new patrols and in regular patrols in about 9 months. At the suggestion of the SM who has been doing this far longer than I have, we do not rotate the PL position in the NSP(s). They have enough on their plate learning skills and no example or experience to draw on. Our TG's not only teach them skills, but basically function as an acting PL. In our world, learning leadership thru the TG's example is as important as learning any other skill. Yes, the difference is they don't get to practice what they are learning in this instance. From experience, boys at that age just do not accept their peers in leadership roles. Our troop has requirements for each leadership position that are dependent on rank, experience, activity level, etc. You can't be a PL without first being an APL. You can't be an SPL without first being an ASPL. You can't be an ASPL without first being a PL. New boys integrating into patrols are not going to be PL's right off the bat, so watching and learning is more important than actually doing in this instance. In our troop, there is little benefit to being a PL for a month at 10.5 years old when you most like won't be an APL for another year to year and a half. I'm not against rotating new scouts thru the PL role, we just have not found much benefit when we've done it.

ajmako, I'm confused. You said, "This troop focused on permanant patrols, insisted patrols plan and conduct their own activities, and handed Scouts most of the authority." Then you said, "About halfway through my tenure with that troop things started falling apart. The patrols still functioned on their own, but the junior leaders were sort of slacking off. There was a lot more goofing off than usual, and it seemed like none of the PL's, ASPL's, TG's, the SPL, or JASM's would bother to do anything about it." Then this, "Finally we sat down with one of the JASM's and asked him what he thought was happening. He said: "No one does anything because the adults never give them a chance." Whether it was a troop meeting or a campout, you couldn't swing a cat in that troop without hitting an adult, and we needed a 16-year-old Scout to tell us that." How did you get from point A to point B? How did the mere presence of adults cause your problem? I guess my question is that you never said that adults were taking over and not allowing the boys to do their job. You said that the troop was boy led and then the boys started slacking off. When questioned, the JASM said that adults never give them the chance.....yet you said the boys led the troop and started slacking off. Just because there are so many adults you can't swing a dead cat without hitting one shouldn't impede them from leading their troop. What am I missing? Were the boys intimidated by the presence of an adult or were the adults trying to take control?

To those of you who have followed this tragedy, I wanted to bring you up to date. The funeral was yesterday afternoon. We had over 80 scouts, scouters and parent in attendance. The boys served as door greeters, manned the guest books, ushered and escorted ladies in the family to their seats. They also acted as a color guard and led the Pledge. The SM had checked our records and determined that he had met the requirements for Life Scout and awarded the rank badge to his mother during the service. Myself and some of our other Scouters served as pallbearers. He was buried with his Handbook in his hands and the vault for his casket had a large metal Scout emblem affixed to the lid. His mother had put together some really nice displays that were inthe lobby of the church. On one side was a display of items from when he was a baby up thru all of his school activities. On the other side was a display of his years in Cubs and Boy Scouts. There was a wonderful slide show during his service. The church was packed and they brought additional chairs from every corner of the church. In the ned, it was standing room only. It was obvious how many people cared for this young man and will miss him. His actions were so needless. please continue to remember his family in your thoughts and prayers. Out of respect, we did not hold our Troop meeting last night. Next week we will have professional counselors for our whole troop meeting time. They will split the boys into three groups. One will be the new scouts. The second group will be second year scouts and the third group will be all older scouts. The counselor will be in the center of the room with the scouts around them and the parents in an outer ring so they can know what the counselors say. Keep the troop in your prayers as well. Thanks Scouters!

Beavah: "Dat's why in most publication photos, you'll find fairly simple and "clean" adult uniforms, not bespangled by multiple rows of knots. And I daresay it's a good thing about woodbadge, havin' everyone lay off the puffery for a bit and recognize one another as equal brothers in carin' for kids." Ahhhh, but things have changed under the latest WB staffing policies. Evidently it has been decided that asking Scouters to strip their uniform or buy a new shirt is too much of a hardship financially or for practicality purposes. Staffers wear their regular uniform. When I staffed this last fall, the CD took a vote among staffers to see if we wanted to wear stripped shirts or follow the new policy. Since most had staffed before and/or staffed other types of council courses and already had a stripped shirt, we voted to go stripped. Other changes are to not have a pre-course meeting for participants due to hardship and time concerns and cutting back the number of pre-course staff meetings to only 3 for the same reasons.

epalmer, One of the tickets he wrote was to develop a presentation that traced the travels, activities and campaigns of BP in Africa and tie that to the cultures he came in contact with. Literally, to tie the foundations of scouting to African culture and it's influence on scouting.

First, let me say thank you to all of those who have responded in this thread and to those who although did not respond, have likewise remembered this young man and his family in their thoughts and prayers. After tissue and organ donation decisions were made, our scout was removed from life support around 4:30 PM on Wednesday. He passed away around 1:30 Pm yesterday (Thursday). Services should be this coming Monday afternoon. There will most likely be some involvement by some within the troop at the services and possibly a color guard. Then we will have the professional counselor at our troop meeting Monday evening. Again, we appreciate your thoughts and prayers and ask that you would continue to pray for this young man's family, friends and our troop.

Perhaps this fits in the Open Discussion forum. To me, it seems to fit better in the Issues and Politics forum. The mods can move it where they want. I really have no comment on this commentary on CNN.com, I just found it interesting and thought others would to. I guess my only comment is that like the author, I have never really seen a conflict between science and religion either. http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/collins.commentary/index.html Collins: Why this scientist believes in God POSTED: 4:23 p.m. EDT, April 4, 2007 By Dr. Francis Collins Special to CNN Editor's note: Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., is the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute. His most recent book is "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief." ROCKVILLE, Maryland (CNN) -- I am a scientist and a believer, and I find no conflict between those world views. As the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the information molecule of all living things, as God's language, and the elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a reflection of God's plan. I did not always embrace these perspectives. As a graduate student in physical chemistry in the 1970s, I was an atheist, finding no reason to postulate the existence of any truths outside of mathematics, physics and chemistry. But then I went to medical school, and encountered life and death issues at the bedsides of my patients. Challenged by one of those patients, who asked "What do you believe, doctor?", I began searching for answers. I had to admit that the science I loved so much was powerless to answer questions such as "What is the meaning of life?" "Why am I here?" "Why does mathematics work, anyway?" "If the universe had a beginning, who created it?" "Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms?" "Why do humans have a moral sense?" "What happens after we die?" I had always assumed that faith was based on purely emotional and irrational arguments, and was astounded to discover, initially in the writings of the Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis and subsequently from many other sources, that one could build a very strong case for the plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds. My earlier atheist's assertion that "I know there is no God" emerged as the least defensible. As the British writer G.K. Chesterton famously remarked, "Atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative." But reason alone cannot prove the existence of God. Faith is reason plus revelation, and the revelation part requires one to think with the spirit as well as with the mind. You have to hear the music, not just read the notes on the page. Ultimately, a leap of faith is required. For me, that leap came in my 27th year, after a search to learn more about God's character led me to the person of Jesus Christ. Here was a person with remarkably strong historical evidence of his life, who made astounding statements about loving your neighbor, and whose claims about being God's son seemed to demand a decision about whether he was deluded or the real thing. After resisting for nearly two years, I found it impossible to go on living in such a state of uncertainty, and I became a follower of Jesus. So, some have asked, doesn't your brain explode? Can you both pursue an understanding of how life works using the tools of genetics and molecular biology, and worship a creator God? Aren't evolution and faith in God incompatible? Can a scientist believe in miracles like the resurrection? Actually, I find no conflict here, and neither apparently do the 40 percent of working scientists who claim to be believers. Yes, evolution by descent from a common ancestor is clearly true. If there was any lingering doubt about the evidence from the fossil record, the study of DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness to all other living things. But why couldn't this be God's plan for creation? True, this is incompatible with an ultra-literal interpretation of Genesis, but long before Darwin, there were many thoughtful interpreters like St. Augustine, who found it impossible to be exactly sure what the meaning of that amazing creation story was supposed to be. So attaching oneself to such literal interpretations in the face of compelling scientific evidence pointing to the ancient age of Earth and the relatedness of living things by evolution seems neither wise nor necessary for the believer. I have found there is a wonderful harmony in the complementary truths of science and faith. The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. God can be found in the cathedral or in the laboratory. By investigating God's majestic and awesome creation, science can actually be a means of worship.

Dan and ASM915, I appreciate your comments on organ and tissue donation. My son is 14. There is a young man that he played little league baseball with for a number of years and has gone to school with since 1st grade. In years past, they used to do sleepovers together. This young man's mid 30's mother was on a heart/lung transplant list for the past year or so. A match was not found and she passed away within the last month. Our Scout's family's decision to donate his organs and tissue was an opportunity to talk with my son about how this might bring some peace to the family and how wonderful it would have been if his schoolmate's mother had had an opportunity to receive a match. In the midst of death, it is a gift of life. It can give some comfort and meaning to those who suffer a loss and allow their loved one an "extended" existence while bringing joy and life to another family. Thank you all for your continued prayers and thoughts.

It saddens me to have to give this update, but it would have taken a genuine miracle to report good news to you. After a battery of tests, it has been determined that this young man no longer has any brain activity and can never recover. His family has decided on organ and tissue donation and the search for matches will somewhat drive the removal of the ventilator. It will most likely be very soon. Please keep this young man's family and friends in your prayers. I can never presume to know what goes on in the mind of a person who chooses to take their own life. I only know that this was senseless and needless. The hospital has been a beehive of activity between family, school friends, church friends and scout friends. This young man had so many people who cared for him and loved him that he could have turned to. For whatever reason, he either failed to see that or rejected it. Please go home today and hug your child(ren), tell them you love them and REALLY talk to them and get to know them better. Our CC, AntelopeDud has been a rock thruout all of this and has spent a considerable amount of time with the family at the hospital. Our SM and Chaplain did an outstanding job at our Troop meeting Monday night to begin the initial dealings with the boys in the Troop. Next week we will have a professional counselor at the meeting to discuss what has happened with the boys and their parents. Again, thank you for your prayers and support. This is not the end of this tragedy. Please continue with your prayers. Thank you!

Amen brother! I just got an e-mail from my brother-in-law that was showing the differences in Al Gore's home and George Bush's ranch utility cost-wise. It was anti-Gore if you couldn't guess. My father-in-law is fond of sending out anti-Hillary e-mails. I actually quit going to a Sunday School class I was a member of a decade ago because the teacher always managed to work a dig in against the Democrats and a praise in for the Republicans in each lesson. That was not why I was going to church. And regardless what the teacher thought, Southern Baptist or evangelical Christian does NOT translate in to conservative or Republican. But since you have so many radio talk show pundits and writers trying to convince the public that liberals or Democrats are Godless and have a mental disorder, what can you expect? I check my politics when I enter the Troop room or the church.

ZOWEE!!! Better late than never.

Fellow Scouters, I have an urgent prayer request. We have had a tragedy in the Troop that AntelopeDud and I serve. Last Thursday, one of our 15 year old Scouts attempted suicide. Out of respect to the young man and his family, I will spare you the details other than to tell you he is in pediatric intensive care on a ventilator and feeding tube with a very grim outlook. Please pray for this young man, his family, his friends at church and school and our troop. Our troop is ministering to his family's needs as best we can and we have a plan in place for addressing this with our 60+ scouts and parents. Obviously, our greatest concern is with this young man. Please keep him and his family in your prayers.